dog in 3 fights today....

jockeyboard

Hi all
i posted a while ago and got great advice so am hoping for the same with this.

we are not long in the door. We got a rescue pupper about 3 weeks ago. He is a jack russle crossed with a terrier of some description. So he is small and muscular-getting neutured next week (not sure if this is relevent)

Anyway we are trying to teach recall etc so had him off his lead in the park. He went up to a little yorkshire terrier (at this stage he was still on his lead) to say hello, tail wagging etc but he is a bit hyper so sometimes is jumpy. Anyway the other dog snarled and went for him. This was fine so we took our dog away.

Off we went good bit ahead and took him off his lead- he was enjoying himself but suddenly turned and ran back to the dog who was very cross and snapped and growled etc until his owner picked him up. I apologised and releaded my dog and went away. The owner said his dog is a friendly dog.

few mins later we met another dog who came over. Seemed ok and our dog was wagging tail etc. Suddenly the other dog went for ours and same thing, teeth and growling etc until he was called off.

we went off on our way and had our dog off the lead when a man ran by with his dog also off lead. Exact same thing, our dog went to say hello and he was attacked. This was the longest time and my dog was fighting back. My daughter was screaming her head off.

i dont know why this happened three times in a row today!

I think my dog is friendly but maybe too jumpy and the dogs didnt like that. He has met other dogs before and nothing like that happened.
did i do something wrong? Why do the dogs not like mine? Or is my dog aggressive but i cant see it? He did growl and snap back so maybe if he was really friendly he would just run away? I thought if dogs were wagging tail etc they are being nice??

Help please! I am badly shaking after this.

Ms Doubtfire1

There are cases where the subtle signs of a fight breaking out are hard to read. I know my lot very very well and know when things are off. But you have your boy only 3 month. He may show signs of domination you don't register but the other dog most certainly will. Would recommend to keep him on the lead until his recall is perfect.I don't think there's anything you've done wrong other than maybe letting him off lead to early.train in an area (if you can find one) where you encounter no other dogs..:-)

njs030

Wagging tail just means a dog is thinking, its not a sign of friendliness and should be read in conjunction with body language as a whole.

Id suggest keeping your dog on a lead as he shouldn't be allowed to approach other dogs like that and you have to have him under control by law which he isn't when he's running around misbehaving!

Practice recall in areas where he won't meet other dogs until you know you have him under control, on lead meetings with other dogs will help him learn to socialize properly!

jockeyboard

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

There are cases where the subtle signs of a fight breaking out are hard to read. I know my lot very very well and know when things are off. But you have your boy only 3 month. He may show signs of domination you don't register but the other dog most certainly will. Would recommend to keep him on the lead until his recall is perfect.I don't think there's anything you've done wrong other than maybe letting him off lead to early.train in an area (if you can find one) where you encounter no other dogs..:-)

thank you for that. We only have him 3 weeks! I will be very reluctant to leave him off lead now for sure.
i thought he was being friendly as his tail was wagging.
he was doing the same since we had him but every other time it was ok and friendly etc...

Rubberchikken

i'd agree with keeping him on his lead until his recall is perfect.
he sounds like a lovely little guy, very friendly and interested in everyone and everything around him.
tbh, he didn't start any of the 'fights' and is entitled to defend himself. if he's a little jumpy, i know our westie is to some dogs, then it might give off the wrong message.

our westie is a rescue also, and for some reason best known to herself, she adores huskys, sheepdogs and samoyds. her reaction when she sees them is hilarious. ordinarly she never barks but the yips out of her and the jumping up at these dogs would make a dog/person who didn't know better think she was spoiling for a fight. but all she is is excited to see them luckily we meet the same few dogs so they're well used to her by now:)

best of luck with your little fellow.

njs030

jockeyboard wrote: »

thank you for that. We only have him 3 weeks! I will be very reluctant to leave him off lead now for sure.
i thought he was being friendly as his tail was wagging.
he was doing the same since we had him but every other time it was ok and friendly etc...

That's a good idea until you have his recall perfected anyway...puppies are such funny little things to us but to other dogs he may have been very annoying!!

Also you said he came from rescue? How old is he? His mum may not have taught him how to interact with other dogs so he may think the puppy "jump and play fight" is the right way- keeping him on a lead allows you to control a meeting.

crustybla

Our guy is 4 now and he's still just like that. He's happy enough to meet pups and the odd female, though he's neutered. He'll be wagging his tail too but as soon as the other dog sniffs his rear, he'll snap at them. Occasionally he'll play away happily but most times he'll go for them. Basically he's a bit mixed up. We rescued him at eight weeks, maybe he had a rough time in that time? Maybe it's the terrier in him? God knows. He's great off the lead, recall great but I'm always on the lookout for other dogs. He's actually better off the lead when other dogs are around and I just keep walking calmly, he'll just follow me. If he's on lead he goes all defensive. I'm sorry I'm no help op, you're little fella may just need to learn his place with other dogs. Good luck with the little fella.

jockeyboard

notjustsweet wrote: »

That's a good idea until you have his recall perfected anyway...puppies are such funny little things to us but to other dogs he may have been very annoying!!

Also you said he came from rescue? How old is he? His mum may not have taught him how to interact with other dogs so he may think the puppy "jump and play fight" is the right way- keeping him on a lead allows you to control a meeting.

Thanks a mill. He is a rescue dog and he is 9 months old.
he had been with an eldery couple up until we got him so i am not sure how old he was when taking from his mammy.
he likes to jump alot. For example when we come in he jumps super high, he only up to my mid calf but can leap up nearly to my face! He likes to smell the other dogs face and then he kind of jumps up so maybe they get a fright.

jockeyboard

crustybla wrote: »

Our guy is 4 now and he's still just like that. He's happy enough to meet pups and the odd female, though he's neutered. He'll be wagging his tail too but as soon as the other dog sniffs his rear, he'll snap at them. Occasionally he'll play away happily but most times he'll go for them. Basically he's a bit mixed up. We rescued him at eight weeks, maybe he had a rough time in that time? Maybe it's the terrier in him? God knows. He's great off the lead, recall great but I'm always on the lookout for other dogs. He's actually better off the lead when other dogs are around and I just keep walking calmly, he'll just follow me. If he's on lead he goes all defensive. I'm sorry I'm no help op, you're little fella may just need to learn his place with other dogs. Good luck with the little fella.

Thanks for that, its just so weird we had no issue with the many dogs (in prev 3 weeks) we met and then suddenly we meet 3 dogs in a row that hated him!!

What do you mean about the terrier in him? Do other dogs not like those? I think he may have staffie type genes?? I am not very good with breeds....

VonVix

A few things...

It's important to be aware of the other dog's body language as well as your own dog. Yours may appear friendly, but the other dog may not be. What the tail does is only a small piece of information, the overall body needs to be looked at as well, ear position, stiffness/looseness, is the tail wagging stiffly upright, or is it low and swishing left to right, is the bum wiggling along with the tail, is he facing the dog head on, is he facing the dog sideways. Lots needed to observe before you can say "yeah, my dog/their dog is being friendly."

If you are doing recall training, please use a long line (NOT a retractable leash!) for training, this allows you to remain connected to your dog. Also, what ways are you trying to improve his recall?

Lastly, please don't have your dog run up to unfamiliar dogs if you cannot swiftly recall him back before he even gets near an unfamiliar dog. Not just because your dog may be struggling to understand the signals of other dogs given, but other dogs out there don't take kindly to dogs just running up at them. I have one little guy who has the early stages of arthritis in his front legs, if a dog comes charging up to him (any size) it can be very unsettling for him and he will feel the need to snap if they persist. We have taken to picking him up if we see another dog coming our direction off leash and seemingly overly interested in him because owner's do not care to recall their dog despite my dog being on leash and their dog is off leash.

I'm sorry you went through this, it's bad enough it happening once, but to have it happen three times it's no wonder you're shaken. Take it as a learning experience and that you need to change how you may plan on socialising (if this is an important factor) your new dog with others, I would sooner recommend going for an (on leash) walk with a friend who has a calm and friendly, adult dog for yours to gain positive experiences with.

I would highly recommend doing a rewards based basic obedience course (more for you than your dog!) so it can help you learn the ropes and gain some tools in how to train your dog more effectively if you have never done any kind of training before. The rescue you got your dog from may be able to point you in the right direction.

jockeyboard

Thanks for that info. I agree i made a mistake letting him off and approach the first dog, especially as he didnt like him the first time! Lesson learned!!

The other two dogs actually approached mine as both off lead. And both times i thought they were coming for a friendly hello. Maybe my dog ommiting some oder or something after first little scuffle.

i have been trying to do recall using praise and treats but had already decided to do a little course as you suggested.

our last doggo was a rescue too but she was three and avoided other dogs like the plauge!! So we never had an issue like this before!

jockeyboard

notjustsweet wrote: »

Wagging tail just means a dog is thinking, its not a sign of friendliness and should be read in conjunction with body language

i did not know this....

VonVix

jockeyboard wrote: »

Thanks for that info. I agree i made a mistake letting him off and approach the first dog, especially as he didnt like him the first time! Lesson learned!!

The other two dogs actually approached mine as both off lead. And both times i thought they were coming for a friendly hello. Maybe my dog ommiting some oder or something after first little scuffle.

i have been trying to do recall using praise and treats but had already decided to do a little course as you suggested.

our last doggo was a rescue too but she was three and avoided other dogs like the plauge!! So we never had an issue like this before!

You have a teenage dog who is also intact (other male dogs can have issues with intact males), naturally your dog is sticking up for himself when he has growled and gotten into a tussle if he did indeed appear to be offering friendly behaviours initially.

He's young at the age he is at most likely wants to meet every dog he sees, older dogs tend to prefer only familiar dogs, it's generally "rude" behaviour for a young dog to get up in the face of a strange dog and try to get them to play, without there having been proper introductions first.

Be mindful of him having too many negative interactions with other dogs as it can have an impact on him, if you know of a friendly dog (female ideally) he gets along well with I would advise a playdate.

jockeyboard

VonVix wrote: »

You have a teenage dog who is also intact (other male dogs can have issues with intact males), naturally your dog is sticking up for himself when he has growled and gotten into a tussle if he did indeed appear to be offering friendly behaviours initially.

He's young at the age he is at most likely wants to meet every dog he sees, older dogs tend to prefer only familiar dogs, it's generally "rude" behaviour for a young dog to get up in the face of a strange dog and try to get them to play, without there having been proper introductions first.

Be mindful of him having too many negative interactions with other dogs as it can have an impact on him, if you know of a friendly dog (female ideally) he gets along well with I would advise a playdate.

Rude dog???? Sounds like my kids.....dont know anyone with a older female dog but will investigate!

Bells21

There's a Facebook page and website called 'I Speak Dog', they have really useful information and pictures which may help you identify body language and signals that your dog/other dogs display. Hope this helps.

jockeyboard

Bells21 wrote: »

There's a Facebook page and website called 'I Speak Dog', they have really useful information and pictures which may help you identify body language and signals that your dog/other dogs display. Hope this helps.

Brilliant.

DBB

Just to reiterate what others have said, it is quite possible that you're misinterpeting your dog's "friendly" behaviour for rather confrontational behaviour.
Running up to another dog is rude (in dog terms)... they should ideally approach reasonably slowly, and in an arc, rather than in a straight line.
A friendly approach is steady, considered, the head will generally be held low, the tail held low and wagging loosely.
However, racing up to another dog, standing stiffly with tail upright and wagging fast and stiff, and looking the other dog right in the eye, is very confrontational... I wonder is this actually what your dog did? Can you say?
If this is what your dog did, it's important to realise that when a dog approaches another dog in this stiff, fast, head-on way, it is almost certain to provoke a reaction from the other dog. So, whilst it might appear that the approached dog "started it", in fact, all too often it's the seemingly innocent dog that initiated the rudeness to start with.

I'll also reiterate... training the recall off-lead, particularly in a public place, is a risky business even with the best of dogs. Recall training starts in the home, and only when you have a reasonably good response from the dog to your recall cue around your home and garden, you bring the show on the road... BUT, in any training of any skill, it is vital to set things up to minimise the chances that your dog will (a) make mistakes, and (b) be able to rehearse behaviours that you don't want.
In your case, despite your treats, your dog rehearsed running away from you 3 times today... he rehearsed doing the exact opposite of what you're trying to teach him. Using a long-line (NOT an extending lead... just to remind you!) attached to a body harness is an invaluable tool to stop your dog rehearsing running away when you want him to come to you. It allows him to have freedom whilst giving you control. You can buy 10m and 20m long-lines quite cheaply.
It is absolutely critical that you never, ever let him off-lead if there's a chance he's going to run up uncontrolled to another dog... it is so unfair for the other dog, and is the cause of a huge amount of aggression. If in doubt at all, keep him on lead, and don't let him off-lead until he is really, really good with his recall. a 9-month old pup that you've only had for 3 weeks is a long, long way off being reliable off-lead.

Latatian

The dog could be approaching other dogs in a confrontational way as DBB says, I have seen a lot of confrontational dogs start fights right under the owner's nose and the owner had no idea- many of them wagging their tails as they did so.

The dog could be approaching other dogs in a friendly way but completely ignoring what they are 'saying' and being rude- the fact that he went back to the dog who had earlier snapped at him is very suggestive. That's definitely rude, in that he should have known not to do that. I had a labrador who could start a fight in seconds as a rambunctious pup, just through being oh-so-friendly - and obnoxious.

Seconding the idea of not letting him run up to other dogs until you have a really good recall on him and know you can stop him. It's not fair to other dogs and he runs the risk of becoming aggressive or being seriously injured, or injuring another dog. He should be on a lead or long line in the park until he is perfect on them. You can pick up long lines in the pound shop for about two quid. Don't let him off the lead around other animals until you know for sure that he is under control.

crustybla

jockeyboard wrote: »

Thanks for that, its just so weird we had no issue with the many dogs (in prev 3 weeks) we met and then suddenly we meet 3 dogs in a row that hated him!!

What do you mean about the terrier in him? Do other dogs not like those? I think he may have staffie type genes?? I am not very good with breeds....

I meant my little fella, he's a terrier cross, perfect little ratter, rabbitter, catter, it's his ultimate dream to catch one but no chance. Other dogs have no problem at all with him but he has a problem with them. He probably feels the need to defend me or something.
My cousin has a staffie and I've never met such an affectionate dog. Try not to worry too much, all you can do is positive reinforcement, what the guys here are advising, and your little guy will be fine. He's lucky to have you.

jockeyboard

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.
Went for a walk today and kept him on the lead.
going to keep recall practice for back garden for the moment.

so i think my pupper has been rude and running up to other dogs so today when we saw a dog we just stopped walking, stood still and let the other off lead dog aproach us slowly instead. And result! No issue, sniffed each other nicely (was a male dog and he had a good sniff of my fella underneath) and went on his way.

three little doggos off lead came running up to my fella and again we stood still and same gig, few sniffs and no problems!

Also the speaking dog page is brill! Had a good nose on that last night.

Both myself (and the pupper) feel more confident now after our walk so thanks to all!

jelutong

Is he a Boxer?

DBB

jockeyboard wrote: »

He is a jack russle crossed with a terrier of some description.

Jayop

Wagging of a tail is just them thinking?? Wow that's shattered all my illusions about our girl being happy to see me.

Our one will have that problem of the tail being kept up because she spends all day every day when standing with her tail up over her back. I can see how another dog could take that as aggression especially as she's so excitable.

njs030

Jayop wrote: »

Wagging of a tail is just them thinking?? Wow that's shattered all my illusions about our girl being happy to see me.

Continuing on with the rest of my sentence it said tail wagging should be read in conjunction with body language as a whole. Not sure what your point was meant to be there....

DBB

Jayop wrote: »

Wagging of a tail is just them thinking?? Wow that's shattered all my illusions about our girl being happy to see me.

Our one will have that problem of the tail being kept up because she spends all day every day when standing with her tail up over her back. I can see how another dog could take that as aggression especially as she's so excitable.

No... Careful about just using one signal in isolation!
The upright tail-"wagging" we're referring to is a very stiff, tense action, and almost always seen concurrently with stiff body movements, tension, and just an air that shi!t's about to go down
But, a dog who carries her tail over her back who does a big, wide wag, has a relaxed, playful, soft body, is not a threat to anyone... And other dogs know the difference better than any of us humans do. Okay, another might dog might tell a floppy, eejity youngster to feckoff with a quick snarl, but they'll rarely get really angry and seriously aggressive towards her.
So don't worry! As long as her whole body is loose and relaxed, don't read too much into what her tail on its own is doing

Jayop

notjustsweet wrote: »

Continuing on with the rest of my sentence it said tail wagging should be read in conjunction with body language as a whole. Not sure what your point was meant to be there....

Nothing bad I can assure you.

Just that I had always taken the tail wagging as a sign of happiness and not thinking. It's very interesting to read what you guys are saying that you can't just look at it as a stand alone thing.

For example a lot of nights she'll just lie where she was when I come in and wag her tail and other nights she'll run over to be petted whilst wagging. I had thought the first night was her saying she's happy but too lazy/tired to move but it could be something else.

aonb

when my anxious dog is scared/worried, he'll wag his tail to one side - with his backside leaning/bent into that wagging tail...

When he is over excited/out of his mind, he wags his tail to the other side, with a bit of up/down motion but no backside leaning into the wag...

Heres an interesting article on the subject:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201112/what-wagging-dog-tail-really-means-new-scientific-data

deadlybuzzman

DBB wrote: »

No... Careful about just using one signal in isolation!
The upright tail-"wagging" we're referring to is a very stiff, tense action, and almost always seen concurrently with stiff body movements, tension, and just an air that shi!t's about to go down

This is something absolutely everyone, not just dog owners should know and I almost learned the hard way.
My wife was driving out of the lane we live on when a neighbours 3 lab/retrievers stood out on the road.
One in particular blocked the road and my wife was afraid to even room towards the dog in case she hurt him so I get out to move him.
I thought oh it's ok he's wagging his tail. Looking back now, his tail was poker straight, body was rigid and be eyeballed me constantly. I also got a weird intense vibe off him.
He barely moved not really backing away at all and just stared me down but she got the car around him and when I got back in the car I thought that whole interaction was weird.
Now that I've been around alot more dogs since then I can appreciate the potential danger signals the dog was giving off

DBB

It's interesting that you just got *that* feeling deadlybuzzman... I have heard it said that if you're ever unsure as to whether a dog is signalling friendliness or not, ask yourself "would I feel safe reaching out to pet this dog?" Most adults will get this right most of the time... You just get those vibes to keep your hands away!
There is a huge problem particularly with young children not only not recognising that such signalling from the dog means you need to back off, but actually interpreting it as the opposite of what the dog means.
It has been tested and shown that kids up to school age interpret the stiff, vibrating tail as a wag, but also interpret bared teeth and snarling as a smile... And so they're more likely to approach the dog because they think it's being friendly... Which of course makes the dog feel even more threatened, forcing him to up the aggression.
There's no doubt that this misinterpretation is a major factor in many bites to children.

deadlybuzzman

Absolutely, except I was a dope! What coloured my thinking was the neighbours saying to me before "oh don't mind him he's only a fool" when in reality they're both not in control and are negligent.
Since then I've pulled up to houses and while opening the car door I've had a lump of a GSD say hello and also an 18 stone rottweiler and only good vibes from them.
It can definitely be hard to interpret good intentions with intense dogs eg my own APBT but I think with a few exceptions negative signals generally are communicated by dogs.
When in doubt dont reach out!