1940s House wiring - 2 very different assessments

Black_Knight

We've had 2 different electricians call around to take a look at the wiring in our house, and had 2 different experiences. Both seemed very knowledgeable (relative to my lack of knowledge) but their assessments differed wildly.

Assessment 1 (recommended electrician):
- Our wiring is old (red and black) and our fusebox should be replaced.
- The cabling from our meter to our fusebox (red and black) can handle 40 amps, but our fuseboard is allowing it to pull 65 amps so it could burn out that cable (raised concerns if we had an electric shower). Fuse was a bit warm he said.
- Our sockets, switches and lights are a mix of plastics, metal back boxes and metal lights/spots but there's no earthing behind 90% of them. Should be replaced with plastics.
- To move the meter outside the house, a rewire would be necessary.

Recommended replacing the fusebox and changing all sockets, lights and switches to plastics. Quote was a few thousand. :eek:
Also suggested a full rewire wouldn't be out of the question to get everything on blue and brown wiring, and earthed. Quoted a few more thousand for a rewire.


Assessment 2 (googled):
- Our wiring is old (red and black) and our fusebox needs a few parts replaced. No mention of the 40amps vs 65amps or the warm fuse
- Our sockets, switches and lights are a mix of plastics, metal back boxes and metal lights/spots but there's no earthing behind 90% of them. Should be replaced with plastics.
- Moving the meter outside is fine, we would just need to get a test done for the ESB on our wiring to see if its ok.

Getting me a quote for updating the fusebox. Its the only thing he recommended.
I'd also assume we'd need to update all our sockets and switches etc to plastics, so there'd be some expense there too.


So whats going on? 2 assessments on different ends of the spectrum. One saying we can move the meter no problem, one saying its a full rewire. One saying a new fusebox, one saying we can just update whats needed in it.

brightspark

Sockets must be earthed, regardless of whether plastic or metal.

Light switches and lights were previously permitted not to have earths (unless metal of course).

Old wiring? Is it PVC or black rubber? If rubber you really need to do a complete rewire as the old rubber insulation degrades.

As red and black wiring is going to be old (I started in 1985 and it was no longer being installed, so your wiring must be more than 30 years old anyway) I think you should go for the complete rewire.

Risteard81

Just to add to that, even with Class II (insulating) switches, the screws will still be an exposed conductive part and therefore should also be replaced with nylon screws (which aren't cheap).

Also, as above, a rewire should be seriously considered as it is likely time-expired wiring. A new distribution board will also require the tails to be replaced if they are too small.

Black_Knight

brightspark wrote: »

Sockets must be earthed, regardless of whether plastic or metal.

Really? They must be earthed? So if they're not earthed, does that scupper any plans to move the meter outside? I asked the 2nd electrician is the fact that lots of sockets are not earthed a problem, and he said no. So long as they've plastic backs.

brightspark wrote: »

Old wiring? Is it PVC or black rubber? If rubber you really need to do a complete rewire as the old rubber insulation degrades.

Any obvious visual difference between black pvc and black rubber?

Any guestimation on what a rewire could cost?

Risteard81

Black_Knight wrote: »

brightspark wrote: »

Sockets must be earthed, regardless of whether plastic or metal.

Really? They must be earthed?

Absolutely. A Class I appliance won't decide not to shock you just because it's plugged into a socket outlet with a plastic front.

burnsey1987

Black_Knight wrote: »

Really? They must be earthed? So if they're not earthed, does that scupper any plans to move the meter outside? I asked the 2nd electrician is the fact that lots of sockets are not earthed a problem, and he said no. So long as they've plastic backs.



Any obvious visual difference between black pvc and black rubber?

Any guestimation on what a rewire could cost?

He's wrong. All sockets 100 percent must be earthed. Suppose you plugged in an appliance that required an earth, such as one with a metal case and that developed a fault, anyone who touched said appliance could be electrocuted. If sockets didn't need to be earthed, the 3rd pin (centre one for the Earth) would not be there in the first place.

As for the wiring and what the other poster said, yes, if it's rubber it will have to be replaced. PVC is probably okay but is no harm to replace for peace of mind given its age.

I'd go with the first electrician, even if it involves more expense, as he sounds a lot more competent and careful based on what you have posted here. Electrics is one thing you should never cut any corners with. It isn't worth the risk

Black_Knight

Yer both as damning as our first electrician (though I am here looking for a general consensus, not a few yes men to say go with the less work/cheaper guy).

So, with all that said, any thoughts on a price for rewiring? It's a 3 bed, semi-detached.

I've the 2 prices off the first electrician, though i'm struggling to comprehend his pricing on changing the fuse board and all the sockets/switches.

brightspark

Black_Knight wrote: »

Really? They must be earthed? So if they're not earthed, does that scupper any plans to move the meter outside? I asked the 2nd electrician is the fact that lots of sockets are not earthed a problem, and he said no. So long as they've plastic backs.



Any obvious visual difference between black pvc and black rubber?

Any guestimation on what a rewire could cost?

The PVC is typically grey not black, (referring to the outer sheath not the insulation on the cores directly in contact with the copper).


If someone has told you sockets don't require an earth they are not a competent electrician and I wouldn't trust them to wire a plug top.

As to price of a rewire, get a few quotes from people who can provide references or better yet that your neighbours or friends recommend. The cheapest may not be the best either!

As its a long time since the house was originally wired, take the opportunity to get additional sockets etc installed.

Bruthal

Maybe he was referring to the back boxes with regard to needing to be earthed, rather than the socket outlets themselves.

brightspark

Bruthal wrote: »

Maybe he was referring to the back boxes with regard to needing to be earthed, rather than the socket outlets themselves.

That briefly crossed my mind until I realised that it's much easier to loop a bit of earth wire from the socket than it is to change a back box that was probably nailed in.

Bruthal

brightspark wrote: »

That briefly crossed my mind until I realised that it's much easier to loop a bit of earth wire from the socket than it is to change a back box that was probably nailed in.

Yes so you assume there must be no earth to sockets at all, if they recommend to change to plastic?

Its hard to know alright by the wording, although its hard to see someone recommend changing to plastic to avoid having to earth sockets at all.

I always preferred the metal boxes myself.

Stoner

Bruthal wrote:

Yes so you assume there must be no earth to sockets at all, if they recommend to change to plastic?

Yes I assumed that the lights were not earthed but the sockets we're missing fly earth, shows the danger involved in assumptions!

Either way the installation sounds old and it's no harm to replace it. People were replacing PVC PVC red/black installations 10 years ago.

BTW just because someone didn't recommend a rewire upfront does not mean in won't be introduced as a must later on halfway through the other work.

So have your competitive costs for a full rewire upfront.

Black_Knight

Cheers all. Early days in our house, so we're thinking it best to just get it done before we fill the place with furniture etc. Be nice to get a few sockets recessed and moved too. The mind boggles with the positioning of some of the switches/sockets in the house.

After what's been said here, I wouldn't feel comfortable with the 2nd electrician. Going to chat the 1st one again next week and try get a breakdown of the costs (Cant understand the high price for changing sockets etc and the fuse board). Want to see can we do anything ourselves (lifting floorboards etc) to cheapen things up.

mr67stag

The only definite way to say exactly if a rewire is required is to carry out a full test.I wont bore you with the tech part of it but it would take half a day to conduct.
Without doubt the earthing is the main focus of testing as dead test (pre powered) requires earth testing as does the powered up test which also checks the fuse protection from earth faults and effective operation of rcbo/rcd which also protect from earth faults in sockets & shower any portable equipment.

Common pratice with lighting up to 1990ish lighting in domestic installations did not require earthing ,which now seem odd.

So over all its a judgement call by the electrician,red black wiring does not need replacing on the grounds that it not current colours.
I would look at the mains tails supply and earthing lights as a given.
Further checks on earthing hot press / sinks bathroom earthing would need
looked at.

Having said that the load from electricity is much greater than in the past
It may be possible to change the consumer unit and update some of the existing wiring to give the adquate protection required.
I would lean towards a rewire and get the metre outside, but i am in the trade.
Get three prices and ask around to see if anyone would recommend.
Hope this helps

brightspark

mr67stag wrote: »

The only definite way to say exactly if a rewire is required is to carry out a full test.

While a full test would be needed to verify the installation is safe, a visual inspection might be enough to determine that the wiring is unsafe and needs replacing.

mr67stag wrote: »

So over all its a judgement call by the electrician,red black wiring does not need replacing on the grounds that it not current colours.

It's not the colour of the cable as such that would bother me, it's how old is the cable, it's been a long time since red and black were allowed in the regulations.
Of even greater concern is that given the house dates to the 40's is it even PVC?
I heard of house of that era that were supposedly rewired, they weren't...just new 13A sockets etc fitted instead of the old round pin ones.

mr67stag wrote: »

Having said that the load from electricity is much greater than in the past
It may be possible to change the consumer unit and update some of the existing wiring to give the adquate protection required.

True some of it may be ok, but who is going to be certain that there are no hidden issues with the wiring you choose to leave in disturbed? If the house requires a certain level of work, it may be worthwhile replacing everything

mr67stag wrote: »

Get three prices and ask around to see if anyone would recommend.
Hope this helps

I agree especially since it's what I suggested a week ago.

Risteard81

mr67stag wrote: »

The only definite way to say exactly if a rewire is required is to carry out a full test.I wont bore you with the tech part of it but it would take half a day to conduct.

Whilst a Periodic Inspection might take half a day to carry out, it could also take much longer. For a standard sized house I would consider half a day to be the absolute minimum possible, which could easily extend to a full day or longer depending on the size and complexity of the installation.  Non-domestic buildings can take a week or longer to do sample testing on.

mr67stag

Yep testing can last forever , i spent two full years in Intel testing only with Mercury , that was in 2001 and there are Electricians still testing there and doing overtime as routine ,so it may take longer it may take less.
It will take very llittle time if the test are failing.
Taking the cover of the consumer unit will be a big indicator as the standard of the work.
The point i am trying to make the judgement call to fully rewire should be based on fact verified by testing.
Visually checking in attic should also be a good guide for connectors (that should be banned).

Risteard81

It's important to remember that it is inspection which is supplemented by testing, i.e. the inspection part of the inspection and testing process is of primary and not secondary importance. Many problems can be found on inspection which may not even show up when testing. I always cringe when someone sees an obviously damaged cable and then decides that if insulation testing gives a satisfactory result then it is suitable to be left in service - of course it isn't as you know it is damaged!

Black_Knight

Little update.
Lifted a few boards a found rubber cables, lifted a few more and found twin and earth cable and the ends of a few of the rubber cables. Looks like a rewire we done at some stage and they just never ripped out the old rubber cable while doing so.
Had another​ electrician out too and he couldn't see why you'd want to rewire. He tested all the sockets with some plug he had and said they're earthed. Pulled down a spot light in the living room and while there's no earth wire to the spot itself, he did say they're earthed - did some test to verify (not sure i understand how that works though).

secman

I take it that which ever electrician you use will have to be a fully registered electrician who will ,on completion issue you a cert for the completed works. What price do you put on your safety ? Doubt if the house even has an earth rod installed. For peace of mind , I'd personally do a rewire. The beauty of rewire is you can plan it out , reposition sockets , switches, new positions, new board, everything recessed.Do it right, probably going to cost €7 to €8 k. But you are getting a proper job and buying peace of mind.
I'm not a sparks btw.

beechwood55

Do a rewire. With a RECI certified electrician.
Look at each room in the house and see where you need sockets. Add a few more for good measure.

mr67stag

Black knight i would heavily lean towards a rewire ,especially if you intend to live there yourself.
Again 3 Quotes and ask around before hiring as sometimes you dont always get what you pay for.
Believe me i have seen a new house wiring and rewiring by a local with a nice van and high profile was middle price from 3 quotes and boy was the standard s:)te so be warned.NO cabling should be strung around the attic NONE.
If you do go that route carefully plan your sockets and get a good lighting drawn out.
Get the kitchen plan and wire accordingly,go for smart home tech it nots that big a deal when you are rewiring and get this costed seperately.
I am in north west so cant really give you a guide as to where you are at but i can tell you this, it will be dearer than up here a sad fact.

Black_Knight

secman wrote: »

Doubt if the house even has an earth rod installed.

No need to jump to conclusions. There is an earthing rod.

mr67stag wrote: »

NO cabling should be strung around the attic NONE.

There isn't.