The Walking Dead | Season 7 | Episode 16 | The First Day... [AMC] [SPOILERS]

Penn

3

Bandana boy wrote: »

this was not the plan or ever the plan
this was hastily pulled together because Sasha and Rosita went rogue bringing the Saviors to there door earlier
This meant a new hastily pulled together plan was required ,so as 24 hours to do something plans go it was not awful , Kill Negan , use Dwight to take his compound with out alerting outposts , and then systematically destroy the outposts .

We don't know what the original plan was before Sasha and Rosita screwed everyone

Again though, his plan, whether hastily created or not, involved placing complete trust in a group he's met twice and who tried to kill him, and keeping Hilltop as a second line of defence if they lost (even though they don't have nearly enough people/guns) and not even trying to convince the Kingdom (who do have people and guns) one last time to join them. It's pure dumb luck that they showed up to help.

Bandana boy wrote: »

We really must do something about freeing all these people from being forced to watch the Walking dead against their Will .
Really to come in and say its been bad for 5 seasons ,why are you still watching !

I get people who feel this season was weaker but enjoyed it up to now but to rag on a show for 5 years , switch it off

Sheesh

The show still can have some great episodes and characters (Negan is reason enough to keep watching by himself), but people have every right to point out the flaws in the show, of which there are starting to become a great number of. They draw everything out for the big four episodes (premiere, mid-season break, mid-season premiere, season finale). Characters are making such mind-blowingly stupid decisions for no good reason, and usually only survive through pure luck or someone else's stupid decision.

People have every right to complain, because people see a lot of promise in the show and it's simply not living up to that promise. It could be so much better.

storker

5

Penn wrote: »

Rick deserves to lose. This isn't even with the benefit of hindsight, it was a terrible, terrible plan.

I (stupidly) spent some time over the course of the last few episodes wondering what "the plan" would be, because in military terms the anti-Saviours don't appear to be in a great position, even with increased numbers and weapons.

A map of the relative positions of and distances between Alexandria, Hilltop, Rubbishtown, the Kingdom and Seasideplace would be a major help, but I don't think we've ever been given this or told it verbally, so I've just assumed that they're arranged roughly in a circle and maybe a half-hour's drive apart.

Negan has the advantage of having a large enough force to beat any of the communities individually, so they have to unite against him to use their stronger numbers (there doesn't seem to be any way for the good-guy settlements to communicate so as to come to each other's aid quickly enough). This means that they can't wait for him to come to them, unless they're prepared to abandon every settlement bar one. Not very appetising, since while they're concentrated in one place waiting, Negan can loot and burn everywhere else and then lay siege to wherever they are, leaving them unable to leave their settlement to forage. Ancient Rome could sit tight while Hannibal wore himself out wandering Italy, but I don't think Rick would have that option. Obviously each community can't stay put in its own settlement either, because Negan can simply attack and defeat each individually (classic Napoleon).

That leaves attack, but even with improved numbers, attacking the saviours on their home ground isn't a great option, but at least it keeps the initiative with the anti-parasites. If it could be combined in some way with a prior thinning-out of Saviour numbers, then maybe. But casualties in the main assault would still be high. One way to infict casualties first would be to ambush and kill one of Negan's collection details. There's a good chance that he puts some of his more capable fighters on those runs, so that would help too. Unfortunately, Negan's stupidity doesn't appear to match his ego, so after one extortion party fails to return, he's unlikely to send more out until he discovers what happened to the first. There's always the possibility that those runs all happen on the same day - it's not made clear - but that would be just too lucky.

So, only one possibility for an ambush but one which would get a dozen or saviours, including Simon if it's timed right. Perhaps followed up by taking their vehicles and using them as a way into the Saviours' home base. Again, not ideal, but it has to be more plausible that what Rick actually came up with.

Unfortunately, all of this is rendered moot by Rick's inability to cover his tracks, which has made Negan suspicious anyway. There's that name again, Negan. The key to it all...and the the strength of the control he has over his people, and the type of people many of them appear to be (selfish, nasty bullies), which is another strength of Negan's, but which could also prove to be a weakness.

I think a much better plan would have been to the plan proposed by Rosita, though it pains me to say it, that sulky one-time-hottie but current pain-in-the-@ss Rosita was right...well, right in her intention although her execution sucked as badly as Rick's. The difference would be that instead of going into Saviourville to get him, make him come to the hit. Like Valkyrie needed Hitler and Himmler dead this plan needs Negan and Simon dead, so I'd be looking to set up something like this...

1. Ambush an extortion party at Alexandria or on the road to it - if Simon is leading it. Otherwise just pay up and wait for another day. Kill Simon. Participation from other groups shouldn't be necessary for this, so leave everyone else where they are. Ideally, don't let anyone escape. Remove the vehicles and bodies so it's not obvious to anyone approaching Alexandria that this was where the extortion party met its fate. Now get reinforcements from Hilltop for the next sort-of-ambush.

2. Negan, not exactly being a shrinking violet, is likely to turn up himself at Alexandria to cow the rebels with his super-amazing-awesomeness, and he's also likely to put himself front-and-centre, so everyone in Alexandria should just contentrate their fire on him and him only until he's dead. In the middle of a good lean back while arousing himself with the sound of his own voice would be a good time to shoot.

3. Negan's death would be likely to hit the Saviours on the scene like the death of a medieval king on the battlefield, shock and confusion. This is where Negan's psychological hold could work against the surviving saviours. Those remaining Saviours at Alexandria would be uncoordinated and as likely to run as stay and fight. Some of this does depend, of course on how many actually turn up with Negan, but let's assume that he leaves a force back at Saviourville that's sufficient to defend it in case of any Ricky-panky in that direction.

4. It doesn't matter if some Saviours make it back to Saviourville...all the better to spread some "Negan's dead!" shock and awe. This is where the nature of your typical Neganite works against the Saviours. Each one is more likely to be thinking of what's good for him, rather than what's good for the group, and some will even be thinking of...The Succession - especially with Negan's Mini-Me, Simon, gone too. So they're likely to be not only confused, demoralised and directionless, they're also likely to be distrustful of each other and (ideally) start splitting up into mutually antagonistic factions. There are a lot of spoils to squabble over, after all.

5. Gather fighters from the Kingdom and the Binmen and hit Saviourville. With Negan dead, the deal with the Binmen is effectively off, so they might as well pitch in for a share in the booty. Hopefully the good guys win and kill most of the saviours in the process. As for what to do with the prisoners, the safe thing would be to kill them all, but a more moral (and more dangerous) approach would be to try to somehow tell the potential good eggs from the scumbags, then kill the scumbags and incorporate the good eggs into the group.

That's my alternative to the Rick plan. It's not perfect, contains a few assumptions and a bit of hindsight, but I still think it's more pausible than what did happen and would even have worked just as well as a script, except spread over two or three episodes with a few obstacle/curveball surprises thrown in for it not to appear to easy. And a couple of major character deaths for good measure...

storker

5

Bandana boy wrote: »

We don't know what the original plan was before Sasha and Rosita screwed everyone

Good point. I'd completely missed that.

Keyzer

3

Lone Stone wrote: »

I thought this was a fairly good sum of the shows issues.

Couldn't agree more with everything this guy says...

sonofenoch

Why doesn't Dwight just pop a cap in Negans ass instead of going all covert ? he'd have ample opportunity

Banjaxed82

There's posters on here who seem to put more effort into their plot theories than the writers have.

Okon

8

For me this was a good episode, but it was an average season with a lot of filler. I didn't see the twist with the garbage people coming, although I did guess that Ezekiel and Shiva would arrve just in time. Although I wish Carl - and his curly girly hair - had got whacked by the bat! If anyone deserves a good beating, he does.

Unlike previous years, I won't be waiting with eager anticipation for October to come around, as the show has lost a lot of it's shine.

storker

5

sonofenoch wrote: »

Why doesn't Dwight just pop a cap in Negans ass instead of going all covert ? he'd have ample opportunity

Dwight looks like he couldn't find his own ass, never mind Negan's.

Okon wrote: »

Although I wish Carl - and his curly girly hair - had got whacked by the bat! If anyone deserves a good beating, he does.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I did have a moment where I thought, "Bloody hell, I think they're really going to kill Korl.", but it was quickly followed by, "OK, fair enough...".

storker

5

MarkR wrote: »

I think they will try to mend fences with the smelly garbage hippies. She didn't kill him, and she's still alive. Plus, she wants to bone him.

Well, she did f*ck him.

Keyzer wrote: »

And then we come to Negan. This guy is the dumbest evil mastermind ever. Time and time again he has more than enough reason and opportunity to kill Rick but he doesn't. He lets Carl go after he attempts to murder him. He lets Rosita off when she attempts to murder him.

You're right of course, but I still think it's one of the less outlandish TWD plot holes when you consider Negan's Mount Rushmore-sized ego. In a way, he respects people who stand up to him, or at least feels a need to dominate them that just killing them doesn't satisfy. It's no good to him if they die thinking he's just a sadistic pr1ck, he wants them to "love Big Brother".

Shelflife

1

A crock of ****e , only good thing was the double cross !

Laughable that they never disarmed rick and his crew at this stage and even more laughable was Rick trying to cut a deal when he's in no position to do so.

Laughable the way they turn around to shoot people behind them who for some reason didn't bother to open fire until they turned around.

Only reason I've stayed watching is because I've watched them all but this season may well be the last.

Too many plot holes appearing in too many episodes. Lazy writing is showing up way too often.

Dial Hard

Effects wrote:

He just keeps replaying the same storyline, season after season. He's just dialling it in at this stage and it's getting boring.

He's not writing it, in fairness to him. He can only work with what he's given.

expectationlost

gimple's got to go

frostyjacks

5

Gunfight was a little bit A-Teamy at the end. Films like Heat and Children of Men have raised the bar for action scenes. This one was closer to Bugsy Malone.

The Talking Bread

7

frostyjacks wrote: »

Gunfight was a little bit A-Teamy at the end. Films like Heat and Children of Men have raised the bar for action scenes. This one was closer to Bugsy Malone.

I think you are going to just go with it though. Like you, I anticipate, I can see they are going down the cartoon mirroring route and this is probably going to be what the show is like going forward. The comics took a drastic, in my opinion, genre/tone from just after the Alexandria invasion and Kirkman et al seemed to stray away from a lot of the relative realism that we saw in earlier in the series and it became more wacky. Whether they were merely running out of ideas or just smoking some crazy substance, I don't know.

They are never going to lose the viewers, drastically at least, so I can't see them straying too far from these irritating facets in the show. No excuse in anyway but hopefully this season can be forgotten as a filler season now. They seem to have introduced so many groups/characters now that they have set up a lot for next season and they don't have to have these filler episodes to introduce new groups like they did this season. The structure was badly done and surely these guys would have anticipated viewers disillusionment with the pacing. Sadly (and strangely) they didn't, or more likely, didn't care too much as they know the viewers won't drastically drop regardless.
The Oceanside episode could have easily been split into segments over a few episodes, just stuff like that.

Anyway, it is what it is now and it is impossible to revert to Season 1 or 2 or even 3 where there were far less characters and we were being introduced to the majority of the protagonists and MOST IMPORTANTLY, we were being introduced to the concept of the walkers, something there isn't much more to be explained now, is there??

Lone Stone

7

expectationlost wrote: »

gimple's got to go

HAY GUYS LETS MAKE THE MAKE UP GUY THE SHOW RUNNER durrrpppPPp yeah.

He really does need to get the feck away from the camera and back into the make up room, im surprised there is no petition to fire the guy going around.

The Talking Bread

7

Lone Stone wrote: »

HAY GUYS LETS MAKE THE MAKE UP GUY THE SHOW RUNNER durrrpppPPp yeah.

He really does need to get the feck away from the camera and back into the make up room, im surprised there is no petition to fire the guy going around.

"Make Up guy"???

Before being promoted to show runner, Scott Gimple wrote 'Clear'. He wrote "Here's not Here". He wrote "The Grove". He wrote "Pretty Much Dead Already", some of the best written episodes in the series. Strong, character/dialogue driven episodes.
I don't see any lack of logic why he was promoted.

The issue for the show comes to being stuck between the comic and wanting to be its own thing. The show is trying to stay to the source material, while changing various aspects of the show. By doing this, the are forced to adapt their story to meet with the comic. This process probably has an effect on what can be told. A change of staff could not hurt, and probably would be better off, but getting the show to a point where it could diverge from the comic would probably fix a lot of the issues. Hopefully the showrunners and Kirkmann can compromise on this.

However that has its own problems too, now suddenly a lot of people will complain about how it is different etc.
Short answer: Yes a change in staff or approach would help, but ultimately people will complain, because people like to complain.

Gimple has strength in his originality also. I thought Morgans storyline and the Wolves were some of the strongest episodes in Season 6, and they were original material that I believed enhanced what the comic was trying to do, not just padding/filler. It actually gave a strong thematic reason for walkers over-running Alexandria, rather than just yet another "uh oh they've breached the walls again".


Gimple has made many errors of judgments and maybe it is time for someone to take over but he certainly hasn't done a terrible job since he took over and he definitely earned his promotion at the time.

expectationlost

The Talking Bread wrote: »

"Make Up guy"???

Before being promoted to show runner, Scott Gimple wrote 'Clear'. He wrote "Here's not Here". He wrote "The Grove". He wrote "Pretty Much Dead Already", some of the best written episodes in the series. Strong, character/dialogue driven episodes.
I don't see any lack of logic why he was promoted.

The issue for the show comes to being stuck between the comic and wanting to be its own thing. The show is trying to stay to the source material, while changing various aspects of the show. By doing this, the are forced to adapt their story to meet with the comic. This process probably has an effect on what can be told. A change of staff could not hurt, and probably would be better off, but getting the show to a point where it could diverge from the comic would probably fix a lot of the issues. Hopefully the showrunners and Kirkmann can compromise on this.

However that has its own problems too, now suddenly a lot of people will complain about how it is different etc.
Short answer: Yes a change in staff or approach would help, but ultimately people will complain, because people like to complain.

Gimple has strength in his originality also. I thought Morgans storyline and the Wolves were some of the strongest episodes in Season 6, and they were original material that I believed enhanced what the comic was trying to do, not just padding/filler. It actually gave a strong thematic reason for walkers over-running Alexandria, rather than just yet another "uh oh they've breached the walls again".


Gimple has made many errors of judgments and maybe it is time for someone to take over but he certainly hasn't done a terrible job since he took over and he definitely earned his promotion at the time.

is not just just trying to match to the comic but trying to delay and sync up the drama to season and mid season end episodes

Dubh Geannain

5

7 Seasons.

Robsweezie

i thought finale was good, requires a lot of suspension of disbelief in characters being saved in the nick of time by a tiger, but that's fiction. only so much realism you can strive for.

the episode sent an important message that rick and co. were no longer afraid, from now on no more ''service'', just war. There was a sense of progression and full circle from the season premiere. it set the tone for season 8, with the various groups now working together.

sashas exit was fitting, for a character who was never integral to the plot. She went out on her own terms, and im glad negan, rapey davey and the saviors didnt get to have their way with her in the end. the donny hathaway track in the coffin was also a good choice. Again, fitting.

I liked the glenn tribute at the end, even if it came across a tad cheesy. But glenn was a staple of the show, it felt right.

could've done without the abraham flashbacks, though I liked the dialogue about risking your life for others.

interested to see where negan goes from here, jadis too.

willowthewisp

4

Robsweezie wrote: »

i thought finale was good, requires a lot of suspension of disbelief in characters being saved in the nick of time by a tiger, but that's fiction. only so much realism you can strive for.

the episode sent an important message that rick and co. were no longer afraid, from now on no more ''service'', just war. There was a sense of progression and full circle from the season premiere. it set the tone for season 8, with the various groups now working together.

sashas exit was fitting, for a character who was never integral to the plot. She went out on her own terms, and im glad negan, rapey davey and the saviors didnt get to have their way with her in the end. the donny hathaway track in the coffin was also a good choice. Again, fitting.

I liked the glenn tribute at the end, even if it came across a tad cheesy. But glenn was a staple of the show, it felt right.

could've done without the abraham flashbacks, though I liked the dialogue about risking your life for others.

interested to see where negan goes from here, jadis too.

What was the Glen tribute?

Robsweezie

willowthewisp wrote:

What was the Glen tribute?

Maggies monologue about glens influence on the group, and the final shot of hershels watch he gave glenn

fitz

The scoring is usually so good, I was really disappointed with the music during Maggie's speech. It felt really schmaltzy, and was pretty jarring. A rare misstep, as Bear McCreary's work is usually consistently brilliant...

TerrorFirmer

5

Robsweezie wrote: »

i thought finale was good, requires a lot of suspension of disbelief in characters being saved in the nick of time by a tiger, but that's fiction. only so much realism you can strive for.

The cyber-tiger who can tell friend from foe is actually the least of the major issues that plague that episode to be honest.

The farcical shootout and events leading up to it, appearance of The Kingdom out of thin air and Negan's Scooby Doo escape are the real issues.

Paddy Cow

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

The cyber-tiger who can tell friend from foe is actually the least of the major issues that plague that episode to be honest.

The farcical shootout and events leading up to it, appearance of The Kingdom out of thin air and Negan's Scooby Doo escape are the real issues.

Don't get me started on the shoot out. Negan took all the guns from Alexandria and have a pretty hefty arsenal. Rick and co raid one group and suddenly they're equipped to have enough guns for themselves and to give to another group :rolleyes:

All of the guns (plus Negan's) must have been loaded with blanks because that shoot out should have ended up with enough walkers to wipe out everyone.

sonofenoch

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Don't get me started on the shoot out. Negan took all the guns from Alexandria and have a pretty hefty arsenal. Rick and co raid one group and suddenly they're equipped to have enough guns for themselves and to give to another group :rolleyes:

All of the guns (plus Negan's) must have been loaded with blanks because that shoot out should have ended up with enough walkers to wipe out everyone.

It gets worse when you consider Nicks crew had no guns after Negan took them over .....a dozen or so and a tiger come charging in and suddenly Nick and the gang have guns again....how the fuk did they get them back so fast, and not one shot/killed

MarkR

sonofenoch wrote: »

It gets worse when you consider Nicks crew had no guns after Negan took them over .....a dozen or so and a tiger come charging in and suddenly Nick and the gang have guns again....how the fuk did they get them back so fast, and not one shot/killed

They found guns at that over-run camp. With all the zombie soldiers. And the rations.

sonofenoch

MarkR wrote: »

They found guns at that over-run camp. With all the zombie soldiers. And the rations.

When they captured Rick and Carl inside Alexandria tho? they would have taken all their weapons away

MarkR

sonofenoch wrote: »

When they captured Rick and Carl inside Alexandria tho? they would have taken all their weapons away

Remember when Rick and Michonne went on their little expedition, had their lady and the tramp moment after finding all he mre's? They fell through the roof at the carnival and found loads of good. Then Rick nearly died, but it was a deer. :rolleyes:

They they straight up slaughtered ever remaining zombie and started stacking up on the weapons.

dr.kenneth noisewater

5

MarkR wrote: »

sonofenoch wrote: »

When they captured Rick and Carl inside Alexandria tho? they would have taken all their weapons away

Remember when Rick and Michonne went on their little expedition, had their lady and the tramp moment after finding all he mre's? They fell through the roof at the carnival and found loads of good. Then Rick nearly died, but it was a deer. :rolleyes:

They they straight up slaughtered ever remaining zombie and started stacking up on the weapons.

What a magical episode it was

CramCycle

8

MarkR wrote: »

Remember when Rick and Michonne went on their little expedition, had their lady and the tramp moment after finding all he mre's? They fell through the roof at the carnival and found loads of good. Then Rick nearly died, but it was a deer. :rolleyes:

They they straight up slaughtered ever remaining zombie and started stacking up on the weapons.

I think the point was Rick and Carl were on their knees in this episode, about to die, how did everyone manage to turn around and disarm their captors and get their guins back or did they just not take them off them and leave them holding the guns