Mark your diaries! Pope Frank coming to Ireland - August 2018

robindch

corks finest wrote: »

My thoughts are ,,,you are a person who just likes to cause trouble [...]

Not really

The pope is, of course, free and generally welcome to visit Ireland just as most dignitaries are.

What would be nice in his special case though is if he would address himself to some of the outstanding issues which his organization has been involved with over the years in this country - see my post above for just a few examples (there are plenty more).

Unfortunately, it seems from the schedules etc which have been published to date, that he's just rocking into town for a religious knees-up and some hoopla and will be studiously avoiding anything controversial. In this, he does unfortunately sit at one with his predecessors.

robindch

Seems Jesus caused the website providing tickets for the pope's visit to crash this morning, but a few quick prayers and it's back up again:

http://www.thejournal.ie/popes-visit-tickets-4090030-Jun2018/

Tickets available here for anybody at a loose end in the second half of August:

https://www.worldmeeting2018.ie/en/Tickets/Closing-Mass-ticket-only

splinter65

robindch wrote: »

Seems Jesus caused the website providing tickets for the pope's visit to crash this morning, but a few quick prayers and it's back up again:

http://www.thejournal.ie/popes-visit-tickets-4090030-Jun2018/

Tickets available here for anybody at a loose end in the second half of August:

https://www.worldmeeting2018.ie/en/Tickets/Closing-Mass-ticket-only

Try not to bother yourself so much about it. So more people then you expected or hoped want to see the Pope. It’s not the end of the world. Your still well on the way to the secular Ireland you’ve always longed for in all your hopes and dreams.

Hotblack Desiato

Secular and irreligious aren't the same thing, no matter how many times the RCC tries to pretend they are.

Members of minority religions often welcome secularism, it means the state can't f**k with them.

It's the majority religions who desire to f**k with the state who oppose secularism.

robindch

splinter65 wrote: »

So more people then you expected or hoped want to see the Pope.

Depends on who's doing the booking - seems there's a lot of fake bookings:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-s-ireland-visit-prompts-protest-booking-campaign-1.3544167
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/say-nope-pope-tickets-ireland-12798742

:eek:

One eyed Jack

robindch wrote: »

Depends on who's doing the booking - seems there's a lot of fake bookings:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-s-ireland-visit-prompts-protest-booking-campaign-1.3544167
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/say-nope-pope-tickets-ireland-12798742

:eek:

It probably hasn't registered with him that booking as many tickets as he likes doesn't mean he will actually get them, and others won't.

splinter65

The guy behind the ticket booking jape on Facebook (Say nope to the pope) has had it come back to bite him. He runs an adventure business in the Burren and the bad reviews on Trip Advisor are piling up... plus Leo says they’re petty and mean spirited. Not a good idea.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

Try not to bother yourself so much about it. So more people then you expected or hoped want to see the Pope. It’s not the end of the world. Your still well on the way to the secular Ireland you’ve always longed for in all your hopes and dreams.

We all are, now that you mention it.

feargale

I don't belong to the Pope's church. I will not be attending the events in the Phoenix Park or Knock or elsewhere. And I can understand why people want to protest.
By all means protest. Hold a counter-gathering if you wish. But this ticket scam is a dishonest attempt to manipulate the numbers. And while I haven't given this aspect of the matter much thought, there may be legal implications of a civil if not of a criminal nature. I see it, on a moral level at any rate, as the equivalent of a party activist at an election tearing down his opponent's election posters or engaging in multiple voting. If this ticket scam is successful it will invalidate the predictions here and elsewhere of a low turnout. I cannot say, but perhaps the very objective of the people involved is to muddy the waters in relation to their turnout predictions.
Am I right in saying that not one A&A person has come in here to disassociate themselves from this? Please correct me if I'm wrong in this. Compare and contrast that with the number of convinced committed Catholics who have condemned the reprehensible behaviour which rightly exercises all of you.
If an IRA bomber stood for election to the Dáil he would be entitled to a fair crack of the whip even if all and sundry deplored him. We can all be fair and just to those who share our views. To be fair to those we disagree with, that is the real test, that is the yardstick that separates the democrats from the fascists.

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

The guy behind the ticket booking jape on Facebook (Say nope to the pope) has had it come back to bite him. He runs an adventure business in the Burren and the bad reviews on Trip Advisor are piling up... plus Leo says they’re petty and mean spirited. Not a good idea.

Leaving fake reviews is petty and mean spirited.

Hotblack Desiato

feargale wrote: »

Am I right in saying that not one A&A person has come in here to disassociate themselves from this?

Why are you expecting people not associated with something to disassociate themselves from it?

If you saw a man in muslim dress walking down the street, would you stop him and ask him to disassociate himself from 9/11? :rolleyes:

If an IRA bomber stood for election to the D he would be entitled to a fair crack of the whip even if all and sundry deplored him.

Plenty of them have. You're failing to make any coherent point.

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Leaving fake reviews is petty and mean spirited.

You’re going to reap just what you sow, though.

feargale

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Leaving fake reviews Disrupting an opponent's rally is petty and mean spirited.

FYP

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Why are you expecting people not associated with something to disassociate themselves from it?

Probably for the same reason you are expecting Francis to make amends for wrongdoing he didn't commit. Some of you people are very adept at using the tarbrush on Catholics while playing Pontius Pilate when it comes to the excesses of your comrades. Oops, I forgot. You have no formal association with each other. It's a wonder you can find each other at all, even in boards.ie.

smacl

feargale wrote: »

Probably for the same reason you are expecting Francis to make amends for wrongdoing he didn't commit.

Thing is, he's not visiting Ireland as Francis the individual, he's visiting Ireland as Pope Francis the head of the Catholic church. In that capacity he does bear responsibility for the actions of the church even if he didn't commit those actions personally.

splinter65

smacl wrote: »

Thing is, he's not visiting Ireland as Francis the individual, he's visiting Ireland as Pope Francis the head of the Catholic church. In that capacity he does bear responsibility for the actions of the church even if he didn't commit those actions personally.

But for the hardcore church haters there doesn’t seem to be any acceptable form of apology short of having himself whipped crowned with thorns and crucified in public in Tuam and even at that there’d be a bit of a grumble that a good old fashioned disembowelling wasn’t included in the itinerary.
He’s coming as Pope Francis to attend the World Meeting if Families 2018. If that was in Spain or Honduras or Sth Africa then that’s where he’d be going not here. It just happens to be here. He visits a Marian shrine in every country he goes to. I think he’s going to be in Knock for an hour.
If the people who feel so overwhelmed with revulsion at this man coming could even articulate how they might be appeased during the 48 or 72 hours he’d be here then it would be clear.
I absolutely think that it’s perfectly correct and right that people who have suffered at the hands of catholic clergy should take up a prominent position of protest at the events. I think the Pope himself would be the first to say that they should be front and centre.
I haven’t seen anyone suggest that they be prevented. I’d be interested in any articles that do suggest this?
All I do see is this somewhat sad campaign the objective of which seems to be to prevent anyone who does want to go to WMF from going and to give the false impression that no one applied for tickets.
Where is the live and let live? Where is the choice?

smacl

splinter65 wrote: »

But for the hardcore church haters there doesn’t seem to be any acceptable form of apology short of having himself whipped crowned with thorns and crucified in public in Tuam and even at that there’d be a bit of a grumble that a good old fashioned disembowelling wasn’t included in the itinerary.
He’s coming as Pope Francis to attend the World Meeting if Families 2018. If that was in Spain or Honduras or Sth Africa then that’s where he’d be going not here. It just happens to be here. He visits a Marian shrine in every country he goes to. I think he’s going to be in Knock for an hour.
If the people who feel so overwhelmed with revulsion at this man coming could even articulate how they might be appeased during the 48 or 72 hours he’d be here then it would be clear.
I absolutely think that it’s perfectly correct and right that people who have suffered at the hands of catholic clergy should take up a prominent position of protest at the events. I think the Pope himself would be the first to say that they should be front and centre.
I haven’t seen anyone suggest that they be prevented. I’d be interested in any articles that do suggest this?
All I do see is this somewhat sad campaign the objective of which seems to be to prevent anyone who does want to go to WMF from going and to give the false impression that no one applied for tickets.
Where is the live and let live? Where is the choice?

I'm guessing if he made a public apology and got the RCC to cough up the 1.3 billion still owed by religious organisations for residential abuse, it would go quite a way to showing a reasonable level or remorse and empathy for the Irish people. The notion put forward by feargale in his last post that this is basically not the Pope's problem is nonsense. With great power comes great responsibility, no?

While I've no sympathy with the ticket spoiling agenda, perhaps if the concern is with church haters getting and spoiling tickets for these events the clergy should be distributing tickets to church goers only at mass. Wonder how big the turnout for the Pope would be in that case?

splinter65

smacl wrote: »

I'm guessing if he made a public apology and got the RCC to cough up the 1.3 billion still owed by religious organisations for residential abuse, it would go quite a way to showing a reasonable level or remorse and empathy for the Irish people. The notion put forward by feargale in his last post that this is basically not the Pope's problem is nonsense. With great power comes great responsibility, no?

While I've no sympathy with the ticket spoiling agenda, perhaps if the concern is with church haters getting and spoiling tickets for these events the clergy should be distributing tickets to church goers only at mass. Wonder how big the turnout for the Pope would be in that case?

There could be 4 billion paid over and it wouldn’t be enough though.
A clue as to why it wouldn’t be suitable for clergy to dole out tickets at mass is in the title and description of the event.
If it’s the WORLD meeting of families then how do you reckon that would work?
There’s actually plenty of people at mass. I don’t know why you think there’s not. According to you the only people who voted no in the referendum are Catholics . So that’s 3/4 milllion every weekend for a start. Never mind the ones that didn’t bother voting at all.
Could it be that there’s a lot of squeaky bum time among the secularists about the Popes visit? Croke Park sold out. Knock mobbed. It doesn’t really look as if the church is as good as gone..does it?

smacl

splinter65 wrote: »

There could be 4 billion paid over and it wouldn’t be enough though.
A clue as to why it wouldn’t be suitable for clergy to dole out tickets at mass is in the title and description of the event.
If it’s the WORLD meeting of families then how do you reckon that would work?
There’s actually plenty of people at mass. I don’t know why you think there’s not. According to you the only people who voted no in the referendum are Catholics . So that’s 3/4 milllion every weekend for a start. Never mind the ones that didn’t bother voting at all.
Could it be that there’s a lot of squeaky bum time among the secularists about the Popes visit? Croke Park sold out. Knock mobbed. It doesn’t really look as if the church is as good as gone..does it?

Perhaps paying what they agreed they owed would be a start, that's no more than simple honesty. Don't know where you're coming from with the rest of your rant.

As of 2016, about 20%-22% of the population attend weekly mass. This is estimated to drop by a further third by 2020. Source. The notion that 3/4 million people attend mass every weekend is a fantasy (unless you mean three quarters of one million).

Very many Irish Catholics are also secularists, as evidenced by the fact that they voted against the vatican position in the last couple of referendums.

Not sure how Croke park can be sold out either, given the tickets are free.

I dare say the Pope will attract a big crowd, though I doubt it will represent anything close to a similar percentage of the population that JP2 attracted back in the day. That was 2.7 million for what it's worth out of a population of 3.36 million. Source. A recent poll has suggested about 18% of the population would like to attend this visit, as opposed to 80% for JP2. So plenty of Pope fans out there, but very far from anything close to a majority of the population or even a majority of Catholics.

The church is certainly not gone but it is a shadow of what it was in recent decades.

BIGT4464

I got 12 tickets I wont be using. eff them for all the pain they caused this country

splinter65

BIGT4464 wrote: »

I got 12 tickets I wont be using. eff them for all the pain they caused this country

That’s great. You’re all about the inclusivity and the choice and the freedom and the equality I see. Who exactly do you think you’ve wounded here in this battle against the church and how will that manifest itself?

splinter65

smacl wrote: »

Perhaps paying what they agreed they owed would be a start, that's no more than simple honesty. Don't know where you're coming from with the rest of your rant.

As of 2016, about 20%-22% of the population attend weekly mass. This is estimated to drop by a further third by 2020. Source. The notion that 3/4 million people attend mass every weekend is a fantasy (unless you mean three quarters of one million).

Very many Irish Catholics are also secularists, as evidenced by the fact that they voted against the vatican position in the last couple of referendums.

Not sure how Croke park can be sold out either, given the tickets are free.

I dare say the Pope will attract a big crowd, though I doubt it will represent anything close to a similar percentage of the population that JP2 attracted back in the day. That was 2.7 million for what it's worth out of a population of 3.36 million. Source. A recent poll has suggested about 18% of the population would like to attend this visit, as opposed to 80% for JP2. So plenty of Pope fans out there, but very far from anything close to a majority of the population or even a majority of Catholics.

The church is certainly not gone but it is a shadow of what it was in recent decades.

It certainly is only a shadow of its previous self. Just as well too. Nice pared down church is what we really need.
I don’t think anyone at all was expecting even the amount of people who seem to be making arrangements to come.
All I know about numbers going to mass is in our own parish. There are 3 priests and 4 daily masses including 1 in the geriatric unit.
As the parish priests are under pressure they get help from priests from a local Order who cover one of the masses every day
The 3 priests are all under 50.
If one of the masses was so poorly attended that it was deemed too much strain, then that mass would be cut. But it’s not.
There are 6 Sunday masses including 2 Saturday evening masses. That’s all I can say.

Zubeneschamali

splinter65 wrote: »

Could it be that there’s a lot of squeaky bum time among the secularists about the Popes visit? Croke Park sold out. Knock mobbed. It doesn’t really look as if the church is as good as gone..does it?

In the 70s, there were a million people in the Phoenix Park to see JPII. That number included a certain number of atheists like myself who went to see a million people in the Phoenix Park rather than JPII himself (just as well, since he was a dot from my cattle-pen), but they only advertised 500,000 tickets this time.

I'd say that's about right - half the level of interest these days. 2:1 for abortion now vs. 2:1 against abortion in the 80s.

The Church is certainly not as good as gone - lots more work to do before the corpse is buried at a crossroads with its mouth stuffed with garlic and a stake through its heart.

Zubeneschamali

splinter65 wrote: »

The 3 priests are all under 50.

I'm guessing not in Dublin so: Fifty-seven percent of the current priests serving in Dublin are over 60 years of age and this is projected to increase to 75% by 2030 and the findings predict that just one new priest under the age of 40 will join the priesthood in Dublin every year up to 2030

smacl

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'm guessing not in Dublin so: Fifty-seven percent of the current priests serving in Dublin are over 60 years of age and this is projected to increase to 75% by 2030 and the findings predict that just one new priest under the age of 40 will join the priesthood in Dublin every year up to 2030

Three priests available in the same place? It can only be Craggy Island

splinter65

smacl wrote: »

Three priests available in the same place? It can only be Craggy Island

If you Google any parish in Ireland you can see how many priests are working there. It’s not a secret at all. All the parishes have websites.

splinter65

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'm guessing not in Dublin so: Fifty-seven percent of the current priests serving in Dublin are over 60 years of age and this is projected to increase to 75% by 2030 and the findings predict that just one new priest under the age of 40 will join the priesthood in Dublin every year up to 2030

No I’m not in Dublin. You can easily Google any town in Ireland and put “parish” after it and you can see who is administering anywhere. It’s not a secret. Priests are coming now from Africa and India to work here. Indian priests in particular are plentiful .

Dr. Bre

Only one messiah coming to Ireland in August - Carl Cox

splinter65

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.hindustantimes.com/world-news/changing-times-ireland-turns-to-indian-priests-to-meet-clerical-shortage/story-ObI4462DR2CeoSaoWdUuKN_amp.html
The current Papal Nuncio is a Nigerian man.
There will be plenty of priests.

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

smacl wrote: »

I'm guessing if he made a public apology and got the RCC to cough up the 1.3 billion still owed by religious organisations for residential abuse, it would go quite a way to showing a reasonable level or remorse and empathy for the Irish people. The notion put forward by feargale in his last post that this is basically not the Pope's problem is nonsense. With great power comes great responsibility, no?

While I've no sympathy with the ticket spoiling agenda, perhaps if the concern is with church haters getting and spoiling tickets for these events the clergy should be distributing tickets to church goers only at mass. Wonder how big the turnout for the Pope would be in that case?

There could be 4 billion paid over and it wouldn’t be enough though.
A clue as to why it wouldn’t be suitable for clergy to dole out tickets at mass is in the title and description of the event.
If it’s the WORLD meeting of families then how do you reckon that would work?
There’s actually plenty of people at mass. I don’t know why you think there’s not. According to you the only people who voted no in the referendum are Catholics . So that’s 3/4 milllion every weekend for a start. Never mind the ones that didn’t bother voting at all.
Could it be that there’s a lot of squeaky bum time among the secularists about the Popes visit? Croke Park sold out. Knock mobbed. It doesn’t really look as if the church is as good as gone..does it?

Do you think the crimes that happened in the past, the vast majority of which only started coming to light in the last twenty years, should be forgotten about so soon? Do you think rape, child abuse and hiding those that committed the crimes is so easily forgotten?

Do you think now is the time to forgive and forget and we all just move on?

splinter65

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Do you think the crimes that happened in the past, the vast majority of which only started coming to light in the last twenty years, should be forgotten about so soon? Do you think rape, child abuse and hiding those that committed the crimes is so easily forgotten?

Do you think now is the time to forgive and forget and we all just move on?

Of course I don’t think that. You know perfectly well that no sane person would think that. That’s ludicrous.
But it’s equally ludicrous for you to hope and expect that the Catholic Church will wither and die or disappear. The Catholic Church is the largest NGO currently providing healthcare and education in the entire world. People have their faith and it’s a huge part of their lives. The vast majority of Catholics in Ireland today have or had nothing to do with any kind of abuse and abhor and are heartbroken at the stories they hear.
But why do you think that that would make people stop believing in the things they believe in? Most Catholics especially older ones feel utterly betrayed but it doesn’t mean that they don’t believe in the basic tenets of the church.
Going to mass and receiving the sacraments doesn’t mean that you are “supporting paedophiles”.
All over the developed world people of all religions and no religion manage to exist side by side. Its not a big deal. You just do your own thing and let others do there’s. This is me wasting my time on a hot evening. Catholics aren’t going away. There may be fewer but they are entitled to go about without being trampled on.
The ridiculing and the scorn doesn’t work.