Mark your diaries! Pope Frank coming to Ireland - August 2018

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Do you think the crimes that happened in the past, the vast majority of which only started coming to light in the last twenty years, should be forgotten about so soon? Do you think rape, child abuse and hiding those that committed the crimes is so easily forgotten?

Do you think now is the time to forgive and forget and we all just move on?

Of course I don’t think that. You know perfectly well that no sane person would think that. That’s ludicrous.
But it’s equally ludicrous for you to hope and expect that the Catholic Church will wither and die or disappear. The Catholic Church is the largest NGO currently providing healthcare and education in the entire world. People have their faith and it’s a huge part of their lives. The vast majority of Catholics in Ireland today have or had nothing to do with any kind of abuse and abhor and are heartbroken at the stories they hear.
But why do you think that that would make people stop believing in the things they believe in? Most Catholics especially older ones feel utterly betrayed but it doesn’t mean that they don’t believe in the basic tenets of the church.
Going to mass and receiving the sacraments doesn’t mean that you are “supporting paedophiles”.
All over the developed world people of all religions and no religion manage to exist side by side. Its not a big deal. You just do your own thing and let others do there’s. This is me wasting my time on a hot evening. Catholics aren’t going away. There may be fewer but they are entitled to go about without being trampled on.
The ridiculing and the scorn doesn’t work.

How do you know what I hope for? How do you know what I think should happen to the Catholic church? My hopes and wishes for the Catholic church are irrelevant. You're the one remarking on people still being angry at the church.

It is ludicrous for anyone to think that the crimes and heart ache that were caused are in anyway forgivable and that any forgiveness that maybe forthcoming will not come anytime soon for a lot of people.

I have not commented on what I think the vast majority of Catholics should do, so I don't know why you're posing that question at me. As you have asked, I do find it strange that anyone could kneel before an organisation who have carried put such awful crimes. I couldn't do it. I couldn't listen to an organisation tell me how I should be living when that organisation has been found out to contain such evil. I dont judge people who do, I just don't understand it.

I have no problem coinciding with any person of any religion, I never said I did. I just will not forgive the Catholic church as an organisation for it's fundamental wrongs.

The Catholic church maybe the largest NGO providing healthcare and education, but if it's anything the Irish should have learned, they should be watched in those roles. Their track record is very much tarnished.

splinter65

Catholics aren’t kneeling in front of an “organization” Catholics are being told what to do by an “organization”.
Catholiscm is not an “organization”.
It’s far more complex than that.
But.
You don’t know and we’ll leave it at that. The easiest thing is for you to do is continue living your life as you see fit, and if I don’t comment on your life choices and beliefs you won’t comment on mine. It’s not hard.

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

You’re going to reap just what you sow, though.

What exactly have I sown?

Isn't bearing false witness against one's neighbour a sin?

Hotblack Desiato

feargale wrote: »

Probably for the same reason you are expecting Francis to make amends for wrongdoing he didn't commit.

I haven't heard any allegation from anyone that he abused a child in any way. That's good. What's not good is that he heads up an organisation which is still covering up abuse and shielding abusers and fighting victims in court to protect their riches. He can stop all of the above but he hasn't.

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

The current Papal Nuncio is a Nigerian man.
There will be plenty of priests.

Maybe in Nigeria they'll organise a collection, "Penny for the white babies".

Given the average level of casual racism among oul' wans here and given their over-representation in church attendance these days, I wonder how this will work out...

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

Catholics aren’t kneeling in front of an “organization” Catholics are being told what to do by an “organization”.
Catholiscm is not an “organization”.
It’s far more complex than that.
But.
You don’t know and we’ll leave it at that. The easiest thing is for you to do is continue living your life as you see fit, and if I don’t comment on your life choices and beliefs you won’t comment on mine. It’s not hard.

You can't tell me what I can or can't post Splinter. I can comment on the Catholic church as I see fit. I never remarked on your life style or your beliefs. I never made it personal to you at all so stop flattering yourself.

My posts have explained why it should not be expected for the Catholic church to be forgiven yet. You don't rape, abuse, beat people and protect those that do and get forgiven easily.

People kneel in front of priests every Sunday. From what I remember of church there was a lot of kneeling...maybe it's not done anymore? Is gathering people together for a common theme in a particular setting and with a set of rules not an organisation of people no?

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

It certainly is only a shadow of its previous self. Just as well too. Nice pared down church is what we really need.

Great! You agree there's no justification for the RCC controlling 90% of primary schools, then?

The 3 priests are all under 50.

There are, IIRC, 3 priests under 50 in the entire Dublin diocese.

Now, you said you are elsewhere, but it's still pretty odd that a parish would have three priests under 50 when they're such a rarity in the country as a whole.

splinter65 wrote: »

The easiest thing is for you to do is continue living your life as you see fit, and if I don’t comment on your life choices and beliefs you won’t comment on mine. It’s not hard.

Would that extend to not commenting on the life choices of women who have had abortions?

magicbastarder

so, free public transport for those travelling to see the pope. that's nice of them.

Hotblack Desiato

I'm really starting to get fûcked off with what this event is going to do to my city.

It's going to be a disaster zone all weekend.

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm really starting to get fûcked off with what this event is going to do to my city.

It's going to be a disaster zone all weekend.

In what way? I mean, when Kilkenny play Tipp in the All Ireland final in “your” city it must get as bad. Do you not get ****ed off over that too?

Hotblack Desiato

82,000 people in Croke Park, most of whom are able bodied, has almost no effect on the city.

600,000 gomers is going to be a different story. I predict mass casualties.

You ran away when I asked you a few questions, any chance of some answers?

donspeekinglesh

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm really starting to get fûcked off with what this event is going to do to my city.

It's going to be a disaster zone all weekend.

I'm really unimpressed that our town is being used as a park and ride. It's bad enough then western teams are playing in Croker.

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Great! You agree there's no justification for the RCC controlling 90% of primary schools, then?




There are, IIRC, 3 priests under 50 in the entire Dublin diocese.

Now, you said you are elsewhere, but it's still pretty odd that a parish would have three priests under 50 when they're such a rarity in the country as a whole.




Would that extend to not commenting on the life choices of women who have had abortions?

I absolutely agree that the RCC should only have control of tops 20% of schools. As long as those 20% are garaunteed only for catholic children. Irregardless of how many non catholic parents want to send their children there.
We are very lucky in our parish to have 3 young priests. We are the biggest parish in a large diocese . Our archbishop is in himself a young man (as archbishops go) and his seat is in our parish. He is an Order priest himself and spent many years on the missions. He has appointed these three vigorous “young” priests to this big parish in an effort to reinvigorate the whole diocese. Maybe from these hints you can google which parish it might be. There are lots of hurling matches in this town? One of the priests hurled for a major hurling county not long ago? He was quite a media celeb after he was ordained a couple of years ago.
Because abortion involves the death of a person at the hand of another person then yes I think it’s appropriate to interfere.
Not running away from anything, why would anyone run from a randomer on the Internet?

Hotblack Desiato

Thanks for replying, but sorry no a foetus is not a person and our experiences with three miscarriages in "Catholic Ethos" maternity hospitals have convinced us they don't think it is either.

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

82,000 people in Croke Park, most of whom are able bodied, has almost no effect on the city.

600,000 gomers is going to be a different story. I predict mass casualties.

You ran away when I asked you a few questions, any chance of some answers?

Why do you think that the majority of people in Dublin that weekend won’t be able bodied? Have you notified the organizers that you have evidence that 600000 disabled people are converging on the city ?!? Surely they need to know!!

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Thanks for replying, but sorry no a foetus is not a person and our experiences with three miscarriages in "Catholic Ethos" maternity hospitals have convinced us they don't think it is either.

Ah there’s a whole other thread full of pigswill on this forum about abortion so I’ll just leave you to it.
The meeting of families weekend is still weeks away and the anti catholic pressure cooker is already about to blow.
I can’t imagine what you guys will be like by the time it gets here.
All the cheery smiling faces not really caring wether you feel like they should be here or not. Infuriating.
I can’t imagine it because I have no idea what it’s like to devote so much of my precious time to fighting with something which mostly ignores me and just gets on with doing its own thing.
I respect your opinion though. And your consistent. And persistent . Have a nice weekend .

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

Ah there’s a whole other thread full of pigswill on this forum about abortion so I’ll just leave you to it.
The meeting of families weekend is still weeks away and the anti catholic pressure cooker is already about to blow.
I can’t imagine what you guys will be like by the time it gets here.
All the cheery smiling faces not really caring wether you feel like they should be here or not. Infuriating.
I can’t imagine it because I have no idea what it’s like to devote so much of my precious time to fighting with something which mostly ignores me and just gets on with doing its own thing.
I respect your opinion though. And your consistent. And persistent . Have a nice weekend .

I honestly dont know how you can't see why people would have a problem with the Catholic church. And I certainly don't know what you hope to find in an Atheist and Agnostic Forum that would give you comfort about it.

If the Catholic church cannot understand why people have turned their backs on them and why people can't let it go, then they are really devoid of all empathy.

To be so smug about it really is truly awful.

Zubeneschamali

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

To be so smug about it really is truly awful.

But completely in character.

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

All the cheery smiling faces not really caring wether you feel like they should be here or not. Infuriating.

I hope they have a good time, that means not clogging up my city's hospitals with hundreds or thousands of casualties, so win-win if that doesn't happen, eh? But if it's a hot day, the walking and heatstroke alone will ensure thousands of people needing medical attention and our system cannot cope with that.

I can’t imagine it because I have no idea what it’s like to devote so much of my precious time to fighting with something which mostly ignores me and just gets on with doing its own thing.

Fighting? it's happening and I'm not fighting it and I don't know of anyone who is. That doesn't mean I have to be happy about it and the spending of taxpayers' money to aggrandise a particular religion, especially when that religion has abused so many people in this country and continues to deny abuse and cover up abuse whlie profitiing from our taxes.

splinter65

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I honestly dont know how you can't see why people would have a problem with the Catholic church. And I certainly don't know what you hope to find in an Atheist and Agnostic Forum that would give you comfort about it.

If the Catholic church cannot understand why people have turned their backs on them and why people can't let it go, then they are really devoid of all empathy.

To be so smug about it really is truly awful.

I fully understand why so many people have a problem with the church.
The church knows perfectly well why they’ve haemmoraged so many adherents. I have no idea why you think that we don’t know why.
What I don’t understand is how you can fight for people everywhere to enjoy freedom of choice and freedom from dictatorship and and then insist that 600000 people shouldn’t be allowed to exercise their choice to practice their religion of choice?
Nobody is forcing any of these people to go anywhere. Anybody who is going is going because they want to. You don’t have to go. You can’t force legislators to rule against religious practice because billions of humans are religious and that would be unenforceable.

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I hope they have a good time, that means not clogging up my city's hospitals with hundreds or thousands of casualties, so win-win if that doesn't happen, eh? But if it's a hot day, the walking and heatstroke alone will ensure thousands of people needing medical attention and our system cannot cope with that.




Fighting? it's happening and I'm not fighting it and I don't know of anyone who is. That doesn't mean I have to be happy about it and the spending of taxpayers' money to aggrandise a particular religion, especially when that religion has abused so many people in this country and continues to deny abuse and cover up abuse whlie profitiing from our taxes.

100s or 1000s of casualties, heatstroke, walking wounded, my city’s hospitals... if you were a religious person I could imagine you on your knees imploring the saints in heaven to rain Armageddon upon the wicked masses invading your sacred safe space...
I think you should try not to worry too much about a 9/11 style catastrophe. I think the organizers may have ran these type of events in other cities before and managed to not wipe out half the participants, but on the other hand I wouldn’t like to rob you of all your hopes and dreams..

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

100s or 1000s of casualties, heatstroke, walking wounded, my city’s hospitals... if you were a religious person I could imagine you on your knees imploring the saints in heaven to rain Armageddon upon the wicked masses invading your sacred safe space...
I think you should try not to worry too much about a 9/11 style catastrophe. I think the organizers may have ran these type of events in other cities before and managed to not wipe out half the participants, but on the other hand I wouldn’t like to rob you of all your hopes and dreams..

My hope that everyone who attends will have a safe and happy event? You can't rob me or them of that but let's be realistic here. If 1% of attendees have a medical issue, that's 6000 people. All EDs in the Dublin region combined can't cope with that. There will be an over-representation of pensioners among those attending, you can't deny that. They will have to walk several kilometres from where their bus is parked to the event, sit there for hours, then walk several kilometres back. I hope (for their sake) that religious zeal does not override the actual ability of senior citizens to overcome these physical challenges.

vicwatson

When are the free tickets being emailed?

Hannibal_Smith

splinter65 wrote: »

I fully understand why so many people have a problem with the church.
The church knows perfectly well why they’ve haemmoraged so many adherents. I have no idea why you think that we don’t know why.
What I don’t understand is how you can fight for people everywhere to enjoy freedom of choice and freedom from dictatorship and and then insist that 600000 people shouldn’t be allowed to exercise their choice to practice their religion of choice?
Nobody is forcing any of these people to go anywhere. Anybody who is going is going because they want to. You don’t have to go. You can’t force legislators to rule against religious practice because billions of humans are religious and that would be unenforceable.

Just like when we discussed this before, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said anyone couldn't or shouldn't practice any religion and I certainly never suggested any religion should be legislated against. So you can leave that train of thought at the station.

My problem is with comments like


The meeting of families weekend is still weeks away and the anti catholic pressure cooker is already about to blow.

I can’t imagine what you guys will be like by the time it gets here.
All the cheery smiling faces not really caring wether you feel like they should be here or not. Infuriating.

And this beauty

I can’t imagine it because I have no idea what it’s like to devote so much of my precious time to fighting with something which mostly ignores me and just gets on with doing its own thing.

The glee that people are like a 'pressure cooker ready to blow ' without one shred of decency about what started that pressure cooker.Do you think people woke up one day and just decided to be angry at the Catholic church for the crack? If you know why people left, then why are you surprised people have a problem with the leader of that religion I'm coming over and a red carpet being laid out for him?

'All the cheery smiling faces not really caring' - that's very nice to know that while this leader is being fawned over not a care is being given by those who have been hurt by his organisation.

The church may very well ignore the anger and the reason behind It, but it will never win people back in doing so and will just deepen the divide. But nice tactic!

When the Queen of England came, she laid a wreath at the garden of remembrance and iirc paused for a minute silence in croke park. Is the pope to visit the likes of Ferns and Tuam?

My main issue is the welcoming of this man whose organisation has caused such anguish to so many and people clapping along supporting him. I would have thought we could all have stood together for our neighbours that we raped etc as children. I would have loved him to come and there were 5 bums on seats. Not for any anti Catholic hatred as you so belittingly labelled It, but as a form of protest that what was done was heinous, forgiveness does not come so easy and to show that we stand by those who suffered. I honestly didn't expect it to be announced that he was coming and hundreds and thousands of people would go dash along with their flags waving like good obedient followers like nothing happened.

Hotblack Desiato

magicbastarder wrote: »

so, free public transport for those travelling to see the pope. that's nice of them.

Most of 'em already have bus passes...

TheChizler

The local Eurogiant window just before Cork Gay Pride weekend...

An_Toirpin

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

splinter65 wrote: »

Ah there’s a whole other thread full of pigswill on this forum about abortion so I’ll just leave you to it.
The meeting of families weekend is still weeks away and the anti catholic pressure cooker is already about to blow.
I can’t imagine what you guys will be like by the time it gets here.
All the cheery smiling faces not really caring wether you feel like they should be here or not. Infuriating.  
I can’t imagine it because I have no idea what it’s like to devote so much of my precious time to fighting with something which mostly ignores me and just gets on with doing its own thing.
I respect your opinion though. And your consistent. And persistent . Have a nice weekend .

I honestly dont know how you can't  see why people would have a problem with the Catholic church.  And I certainly don't know what you hope to find in an Atheist and Agnostic Forum that would give you comfort about it.

If the Catholic church cannot understand why people have turned their backs on them and why people can't let it go, then they are really devoid of all empathy.  

To be so smug about it really is truly awful.

The way you talk about the Catholic Church is like Trump talking about the deep state.

An_Toirpin

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

splinter65 wrote: »

I fully understand why so many people have a problem with the church.
The church knows perfectly well why they’ve haemmoraged so many adherents. I have no idea why you think that we don’t know why.
What I don’t understand is how you can fight for people everywhere to enjoy freedom of choice and freedom from dictatorship and and then insist that 600000 people shouldn’t be allowed to exercise their choice to practice their religion of choice?
Nobody is forcing any of these people to go anywhere. Anybody who is going is going because they want to. You don’t have to go. You can’t force legislators to rule against religious practice because billions of humans are religious and that would be unenforceable.

Just like when we discussed this before, you are putting words in my mouth.  I never said anyone couldn't or shouldn't practice any religion and I certainly never suggested any religion should be legislated against.  So you can leave that train of thought at the station.

My problem is with comments like


The meeting of families weekend is still weeks away and the anti catholic pressure cooker is already about to blow.

I can’t imagine what you guys will be like by the time it gets here.
All the cheery smiling faces not really caring wether you feel like they should be here or not. Infuriating.

And this beauty

I can’t imagine it because I have no idea what it’s like to devote so much of my precious time to fighting with something which mostly ignores me and just gets on with doing its own thing.

The glee that people are like a 'pressure cooker ready to blow '  without one shred of decency about what started that pressure cooker.Do you think people woke up one day and just decided to be angry at the Catholic church for the crack?  If you know why people left, then why are you surprised people have a problem with the leader of that religion I'm coming over and a red carpet being laid out for him?  

'All the cheery smiling faces not really caring' - that's very nice to know that while this leader is being fawned over not a care is being given by those who have been hurt by his organisation.

The church may very well ignore the anger and the reason behind It, but it will never win people back in doing so and will just deepen the divide.  But nice tactic!

When the Queen of England came, she laid a wreath at the garden of remembrance and iirc paused for a minute silence in croke park.   Is the pope to visit the likes of Ferns and Tuam?  

It is beyond doubt that the Pope will acknowledge Irish clerical abuse. All the signals are there and it will one of the many apologies that have been made. I dont  know if he will visit Tuam, I hope he doesnt though, as it is a scandal concocted out of nothing by bigots. Read more about Tuam before throwing it around like it means something.

Hannibal_Smith

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The way you talk about the Catholic Church is like Trump talking about the deep state.

No. It's nothing like Trump. Why does Trump have to be brought into everything :pac:

Hannibal_Smith

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It is beyond doubt that the Pope will acknowledge Irish clerical abuse. All the signals are there and it will one of the many apologies that have been made. I dont  know if he will visit Tuam, I hope he doesnt though, as it is a scandal concocted out of nothing by bigots. Read more about Tuam before throwing it around like it means something.

All the signals are where? How do you know what the pope will say.

Catherine Corless is a bigot is she? :pac: Perhaps you need to educate yourself on Tuam. The dislike of the Catholic Church for a lot of people has nothing to do with bigotry, the Catholic Church are victims of nothing more than the criminal acts of their own organisation.