Mark your diaries! Pope Frank coming to Ireland - August 2018

Hotblack Desiato

Above all, this disposal method was cheap. No nuns were fired into fomer sh!t pits as far as I'm aware...

Hannibal_Smith

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The 50 % figure is stat cherry picking. I understand the average at Tuam 31.6% and other homes had far lower rates around 15%. In Dublin inner city you had periods exceeding 15%. Don't get me wrong, even one child dying due to overcrowding is tragic and if I was alive at the time I would do my utmost to reduce it but a sense of proportionality is totally lost. I hope you spend as much time worrying about present day cases of medical neglience. No one would bat an eye lid about Tuam if it not seen as a Catholic issue. The proof of this is the total radio silence on the awful abuses that went on psychiatric hospitals until very recently or the workhouse predecessors of the mother and baby homes. Criticism of Catholicism in Ireland centres on sex. Thus human reproduction and Tuam is just the lastest fruit of this national neurosis.

Really? The Catholic church is the victim on all Of this?

I think the death and secret burial of 700+ babies and toddlers would be significant to anyone. Maybe you've a stronger stomach than everyone else.

Btw I looked it up and Corless reckons the septic tank was operational up until 1937 (I think), when watermains reached Tuam. She thinks if all 700+ had been buried there, the tank wouldn't have operated fully. So apparently only 200 bodies may have ended up there. The others are in the 20 or so chambers, the function of those chambers no body knows yet.

If it's such an acceptable place to bury remains, I wonder are any of the nuns or priests buried there?

Hotblack Desiato

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The lack of moral consistency displayed here is staggering. So I should more concerned by the unintended deaths of hundrds unwanted babies in the 1940s than the intended deaths of thousands unwantd babies in 2018. Right.

If you are aware of any baby which has been killed, please report it to the gardai.

An embryo or foetus is not a baby.

Also, coeliac disease, are you taking the mick? Since when did breast milk or the cows' milk based substitutes for it contain gluten?

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

The levels of self delusion in this post are almost off the scale. It’s hard to know where to begin. You do know that the organizers of this event have organized similar events previously and I don’t believe very many people died?!?

Really, how many events for 600,000 people have they organised in this country? What they've done in other countries with better public transport and health systems is of no relevance here.

We no longer have a heatwave, but we can't predict the weather with any certainty beyond ten days so it's quite possible we could have one again, this event is being held in August after all.

Actually what I think you should do hotblack, considering your rather touching concern for event goers, is volunteer your services as a steward?

I'd gladly volunteer my services as the supreme event organiser, and then cancel it in the interest of public health.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Seriously there is absolutely nothing wrong with a doctor issuing a death cert for somebody who is already dead.

Not if they were actively under the care of that doctor before death, otherwise (today) a coroner's inquest would be required.

"Biological waste matter" by your rules, but unborn human beings according to other peoples rules.

What do you think happens to severed appendixes and amputated legs?

Also according to RCC rules, AFAIK, there was a thing that unbaptised infants would not be buried inside a normal consecrated graveyard, hence the preponderance of "raheen" infant cemeteries around the countryside.

Isn't it strange how some born infants are so precious to them, and other born infants are less so? That didn't help their cause when they were pretending that all embryos and foetuses are worthy of the protections secular society gives to human beings.

And burial in an underground tomb or crypt was considered posh at the time ( a method often used by the landed gentry).

Yes, unrecorded unmarked burial in a former sh!t pit is totally posh.

Hotblack Desiato

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

So apparently only 200 bodies may have ended up there. The others are in the 20 or so chambers, the function of those chambers no body knows yet.

Unknown numbers were illegally adopted within Ireland or illegally sold abroad.

volchitsa

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Unknown numbers were illegally adopted within Ireland or illegally sold abroad.

Pretty sure this is the key to the whole thing really - by dumping those who died in a pit inside the grounds, it was impossible for outside authorities to check the numbers, allowing illegal adoptions to be counted as deaths.

The higher death rate may have been partly true, especially among the "lower class of babies" that were not considered prime material for adoption, but a proportion of the deaths declared probably correspond to undeclared adoptions, aka selling babies.

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not if they were actively under the care of that doctor before death, otherwise (today) a coroner's inquest would be required.

Not sure what you mean, but are saying the doc could issue a death cert before someone dies?

What do you think happens to severed appendixes and amputated legs?

The dog food factory, for all I care.

Isn't it strange how some born infants are so precious to them, and other born infants are less so? That didn't help their cause when they were pretending that all embryos and foetuses are worthy of the protections secular society gives to human beings.

Different rules and rituals for burial depending on whether they were baptised or not. Not my rules, but I'm savvy enough to see its not necessarily about preciousness.
I'd say its a fair bet that these infants received a "below average" standard of healthcare in life due to the perceived low status of the parent(s). But that's a whole different debate to the "septic tank mass grave" issue.

recedite

volchitsa wrote: »

Pretty sure this is the key to the whole thing really - by dumping those who died in a pit inside the grounds, it was impossible for outside authorities to check the numbers, allowing illegal adoptions to be counted as deaths.

Again, this ignores the fact that nuns kept careful records of the deaths, along with (admittedly somewhat vague) statements of the cause of death.

volchitsa

You're assuming the nuns were not above falsifying records. Why?

Hannibal_Smith

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Unknown numbers were illegally adopted within Ireland or illegally sold abroad.

I wasn't forgetting about them at all. I read yesterday that the nuns were paid £1 a week for each woman and child (not forgetting this was on top of the free labour the women were doing and the money they got for selling babies). Apparently Corless discovered one story where a woman got a job in England and the child remained in the home. She sent money back to the nuns every week for the child's welfare. They never told her the child had been fostered and they kept the money she sent.

Hannibal_Smith

recedite wrote: »

Different rules and rituals for burial depending on whether they were baptised or not. Not my rules, but I'm savvy enough to see its not necessarily about preciousness.
.

Oh come on! Why the secrecy around the burials then? 700+ children died in a Tuam mother and baby home...its a nice average but that's that. Why secret burials with death certificates issued some time after?

I would wonder whether the doctor was going on the word of the nuns in relation to their deaths. How could he possibly say how they died if he wasn't there?

smacl

An_Toirpin wrote: »

There is just so many reasons why something like that can happen. Quoting a medic friend below...

Yes by modern standards terrible hygene and potentially poor by those of a good hoispital in that era.

I'm not suggesting that child mortality was not higher at that time, but that would not account for the child mortality rate in one of these institutions being double the national average. Reasons for higher mortality rates in the many non-infectious disease you have listed would be factors such as neglect, malnutrition and poor hygiene, relative to conditions experienced by other children with the same diseases at the same time. Also, to say that a medic friend said this or that does not constitute a plausible reference.

You also have the issue that Hotblack raised that if healthy children were being illegally adopted out or sold abroad, as discussed in the following IT article and stated as plausible by Catherine Corless, the sick and dying would be left behind. The following quote from that article would strongly support this;

IT / HSE wrote:

The draft briefing paper had noted how deaths recorded at the Bessboro mother and baby home in Cork dropped dramatically in 1950 with the introduction of adoption legislation.

“The mother and baby home in Tuam was similarly involved with the provision of babies to the American adoptive market,” the HSE memo said, and “there are letters from senior church authorities asking for babies to be identified” for the US.

To suggest that there was no wrongdoing, and the church that ran these institutions has nothing to answer for, seems entirely specious. No doubt the Pope will not raise it, but there's been so much swept under the carpet here that someone is going to trip up and break their neck very soon.

An_Toirpin

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Really? The Catholic church is the victim on all Of this?

I think the death and secret burial of 700+ babies and toddlers would be significant to anyone. Maybe you've a stronger stomach than everyone else.

Btw I looked it up and Corless reckons the septic tank was operational up until 1937 (I think), when watermains reached Tuam. She thinks if all 700+ had been buried there, the tank wouldn't have operated fully. So apparently only 200 bodies may have ended up there. The others are in the 20 or so chambers, the function of those chambers no body knows yet.

If it's such an acceptable place to bury remains, I wonder are any of the nuns or priests buried there?

You have a very idealised view of things but not a very consistent one. Others have said the septic tank is from the 19th cen workhouse, a disused tank is not a barbaric place to lay the dead. Certainly it is a lot more respectful than what youd see in any Spnaish graveyard.

If you are aware of any baby which has been killed, please report it to the gardai.

An embryo or foetus is not a baby.

Also, coeliac disease, are you taking the mick? Since when did breast milk or the cows' milk based substitutes for it contain gluten?

Actually baby is a correct vernacular for a featus. Coeliac disease was a major cause of child death and some of those who died in Tuam were weaned.

Mark Hamill

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The lack of moral consistency displayed here is staggering. So I should more concerned by the unintended deaths of hundrds unwanted babies in the 1940s than the intended deaths of thousands unwantd babies in 2018. Right.

It's not inconsistent, because abortions aren't performed on babies.
What is inconsistent is to pretend to be concerned about abortions to distract from the murder of hundreds of children.

You lost the referendum and yet you are still betraying the same fake morality - you "care" about babies in the womb but don't give a crap once they are born.

Mark Hamill

An_Toirpin wrote: »

the death rate varied considerable but anyup to 50 % was common before modern medicine. That figure is deeply upsetting reading to a modern auidence but it is reality so inferring unhygenic conditions and substandard medical care is reasonable but murder is absurd.

To repeat the very paragraphs you quoted:
The 50% death rate in the home was perfectly normal according to [Tuams Doctor] (a point he used to assure the homes Board when they complained about the cost of keeping the kids alive until 15). A rational person might question why the death rate was upwards of 4 or 5 times the national average.
Hell, Tuams death rate wasn't even normal for mother and baby homes.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The article you linked mixes facts with wild allegations with no evidence like 

A doctor recording a cause of death that he himself did not determine is fraud. Doubly so when the recording is done weeks after the fact, with the Home collecting government payments in the mean time as if the child was still alive.

Mark Hamill

recedite wrote: »

I'd be more concerned if the deaths were recorded "before the fact ";)

Probably why no one suggested they should be. Of course, you would expect even just a few of the 796 deaths to be recorded upon observation of the fact.

recedite wrote: »

Seriously there is absolutely nothing wrong with a doctor issuing a death cert for somebody who is already dead.
When you call it murder or selling babies, without even a jot of evidence to back up these allegations, you display ignorance and you defame others who are no longer around to defend themselves.
Unfortunately, defamation is commonplace on this forum.

:rolleyes: Read Cabaals Link:

Mr Higgins also found there is no evidence of Dr Costello having attended a single birth or death of a child at the home.
...
What is a little surprising is the length of time Dr Costello appears to state that a child suffered from measles before succumbing to it. It is difficult to accept that a young infant could have fought measles for ten weeks before dying. It simply flies in the face of general medical knowledge.
...
the period which frequently elapsed between the date on which a child was said to have died and the date of registration of their deaths by the local Civil Registrar was well beyond the norm.
...
Prior to the examination of the half-yearly Registers, the ‘Local Board’ received no immediate notification of death, even after the enactment of the Registration of Maternity Homes Act 1934, which required [notification of death] to be done within twenty-four hours.

In any such intervening period of course, the Bon Secours Order was paid a capitation fee for that child, who was deemed to be alive and in the Home.

It is not just that some of the death certs are written after time of death, you wouldn't expect the doctor to be at each and every single one of them, deaths can be sudden. But the doctor missed every single one of the deaths (and every single birth), even in cases where he records deaths weeks or months after the child first got the disease which supposedly caused the death (in some cases so long after that, medically speaking, the child would have to have been recovering from the disease). He also recorded the deaths without examination to confirm the cause, and far longer the legally mandated 24 hour limit in which deaths are supposed to be recorded.

But tell me again how we are being mean to the poor doctor.

I was going to put some of those quotes in bold but I would only end up putting it all in bold. Seriously, read Cabaals link before you continue to make a fool of yourself.

recedite wrote: »

"Biological waste matter" by your rules, but unborn human beings according to other peoples rules.


Also according to RCC rules, AFAIK, there was a thing that unbaptised infants would not be buried inside a normal consecrated graveyard, hence the preponderance of "raheen" infant cemeteries around the countryside.
And burial in an underground tomb or crypt was considered posh at the time ( a method often used by the landed gentry).
In other countries (Rome) there are extensive catacombs which were used for burials by early Christians. All things considered, if the remains were interred respectfully in an underground tomb that may or may not have been part of an earlier and disused sewer network, I'd consider that a reasonable and practical solution under the circumstances.

Ah yes, posh sewers now is it? And you wonder why this type of discussion lost you the abortion referendum :pac:.

Mark Hamill

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Coeliac disease was a major cause of child death and some of those who died in Tuam were weaned.

Weaned onto what, baguettes?

Even so, celiac disease is only prevalent in about 1% of the population, and only becomes fatal through development of lymphomas (i.e. cancers) that take a long time (decades) to develop. It doesn't account for the hundreds of deaths in Tuam.

Hannibal_Smith

An_Toirpin wrote: »

You have a very idealised view of things but not a very consistent one. Others have said the septic tank is from the 19th cen workhouse, a disused tank is not a barbaric place to lay the dead. Certainly it is a lot more respectful than what youd see in any Spnaish graveyard.
.

Are you reading the posts you're quoting? How is the post you are quoting from me demonstrative of an idealised view? And how is it inconsistent?

If you read ANYTHING on Tuam, you would know, the site on which the home was situate, was a work house, it was then used as a barracks and then it was used to build the home on. The septic tank was built for the workhouse. But there are minutes of council meeting during the time the building was a home for mother and babies and reference was made to maintenance of the septic tank.

Again, you are throwing curveballs about other states...as I said before just because one thing is terrible, it doesn't dilute how terrible something else is.

As I said, are any of the nuns or priests buried in the septic tank? Are any if your relatives built in a septic tank? I must make a will and tell people not to bury me in a septic tank, whether disuse or not :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Not sure what you mean, but are saying the doc could issue a death cert before someone dies?

No, it means that if a patient is being actively treated for an illness and dies from it then the doctor treating them can certify their death without an inquest, normally. Otherwise, usually but not always, an inquest will be carried out by the coroner who will certify their cause of death.

This is the current situation but it's nothing new.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/after_a_death/death_cert.html

A doctor must be satisfied about the cause of death before he/she can certify it. If he/she didn't see the deceased at least 28 days before the death occurred, or if he/she isn't satisfied about the cause of death, he/she must inform a Coroner who will decide if a postmortem is necessary. If the deceased died as the result of an accident, or in violent or unexplained circumstances the coroner must be informed.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm really starting to get fûcked off with what this event is going to do to my city.

It's going to be a disaster zone all weekend.

Looks very likely to be the case; https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0801/982349-pope-mass-phoenix-park/

Organisers of the Closing mass of the World Meeting of Families in Phoenix Park have said that the infrastructure in Dublin cannot cater for all people who have indicated that they are planning to travel to the event by car.

Sounds like a nice day to take the bike into the hills and leave the nonsense in the city to the masses and their masses

volchitsa

So they're organising it, but the best they can do is issue a statement that they can't actually do so properly? How is that organisation then? If someone dies because of traffic jams caused by their knees-up, will that be just god's will?

Surely the whole point of having to get permission for large scale public events is to ensure that they are done safely? Announcing that "the infra structure can't cope" is not a safety measure - it's a reason to call the thing off, IMO.

smacl

volchitsa wrote: »

So they're organising it, but the best they can do is issue a statement that they can't actually do so properly? How is that organisation then? If someone dies because of traffic jams caused by their knees-up, will that be just god's will?

Surely the whole point of having to get permission for large scale public events is to ensure that they are done safely? Announcing that "the infra structure can't cope" is not a safety measure - it's a reason to call the thing off, IMO.

To put it bluntly, once I don't have to have any involvement, I'd categorise it under don't know, don't care. Let the Pope's fanbase have their day out and if poor logistics wipes a few of them out, chalk it down to misadventure no more than if they'd fallen of Croagh Patrick on reek Sunday. As has been said already, I'd expect the elderly to be make up a large part of the contingent, so the concern would be more about sufficient paramedics and supporting facilities. That said, how they live their lives and the risks they choose to take is none of my business.

Hannibal_Smith

Is there not something else in Croke Park as well ?

silverharp

My wife's choir will be one of the choirs at the gig on the day, she had opted out which was fine but said she would do recordings they will be doing as a backup. She now says she is curious too see how it all sounds so will probably end up watching the mass :pac: , they paid the choir well though

recedite

silverharp wrote: »

My wife's choir will be one of the choirs at the gig on the day, she had opted out which was fine but said she would do recordings they will be doing as a backup. She now says she is curious too see how it all sounds so will probably end up watching the mass :pac: , they paid the choir well though

Are you going to go along then?
You can always say that you're only going to support her .

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

Are you going to go along then?
You can always say that you're only going to support her .

ah here that's a bridge too far, if she can record it and fast forward it through for me Ill listen to the Cliff Notes version. Still amusing I guess that Frank will be serenaded by a bunch of mostly atheists

smacl

silverharp wrote: »

ah here that's a bridge too far, if she can record it and fast forward it through for me Ill listen to the Cliff Notes version. Still amusing I guess that Frank will be serenaded by a bunch of mostly atheists

And will no doubt gall the hierarchy that they're paid atheists at that. Says alot when that many Christians can't even muster a decent choir :pac:

recedite

I wonder if robindch will be playing his organ at the event?

robindch

recedite wrote: »

I wonder if robindch will be playing his organ at the event?

Indeed, yes. Will be accompanying Bocelli and plan to go a little off-script in the middle of the Daniel O'Donnell.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45065032