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The effects of the M20 on Cork and Limerick

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    #32
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    zulutango wrote: »
    That's not really true. Both Cork and Shannon have been impacted by the construction of the M7 and M8. It's very naive to suggest they wouldn't be impacted by a major infratstructural project like the M20 also. It's just not clear what those impacts might be.

    Cork airport is on the wrong side of Cork. The Cork NRR would need to be built as well as the M20 to have a significant enough impact on journey time to the airport to make people change from Shannon.


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    #33
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    To be honest, what the M20 could do would be perhaps to enable Cork and Shannon to create a route network that rivaled Dublin between them. I live in central Europe and my closest airport has something like six flights a week to Dublin. I need to get down to somewhere near the N20 and to be honest, I really wouldn't care whether I was flying into Cork or Shannon so long as I didn't have to go into Dublin.

    Right now iirc, Shannon connects into Heathrow with a bunch of holiday destinations, and Cork connects into Heathrow and Amsterdam (actually it's just occurred to me I think Shannon might have a Frankfurt flight too - must check).

    In short, neither of the two airports fly to enough European hubs. The M20 could take quite a lot of traffic from Dublin if the two airports were prepared to look things in that light. To do that, you'd really need a separate airport authority for those two airports, completely separate to Dublin, and a key performance indicator of growing both airports rather than trying to take chops out of each other. Their competition is Dublin. But this is possible and enabled by the M20.


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    #34
    boardsuser1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Cork airport is on the wrong side of Cork. The Cork NRR would need to be built as well as the M20 to have a significant enough impact on journey time to the airport to make people change from Shannon.

    At this stage i'd nearly say not in my lifetime and i'm in my 30's.


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    #35
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    JCX BXC wrote:
    Because Dublin offers a far superior route network than the two airports combined!

    The motorway has greatly increased the catchment of Dublin airport and that's enabled the expansion of its network.


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    #36
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Cookiemunster wrote:
    Cork airport is on the wrong side of Cork. The Cork NRR would need to be built as well as the M20 to have a significant enough impact on journey time to the airport to make people change from Shannon.

    I think the M20 is more likely to benefit Shannon.


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    #37
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I have created this thread to facilitate the ongoing discussion on the M20 thread about how the M20 will effect services in Cork and Limerick.

    Please continue discussion here. Please don't go too far off topic (talking about runway lengths at airports etc)


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    #38
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,162 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Shannon is on the wrong side of Limerick no more than Cork is on the wrong side of Cork.

    Although Shannon is better connected to the motorway and is less liable to peak traffic, the two airports will complement each other more than hurt eachother.


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    #39
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    My major concern is that the SRR N40 is hitting 100,000 vehicles a day and there's no prospect of really pushing further car traffic into Cork City centre anyway.

    I would just hope the money doesn't get sloshed on the M20 instead of decent mass transit systems in Cork City and Limerick.

    If you'd something like a tramway from Carrigaline to Ballincollig via the City Centre taking in Douglas, Blackrock and up quays, past UCC,CIT, CUH, Wilton, Bishopstown, etc.. and up the main Street of Ballincollig with multiple stops, you'd take huge numbers of cars off the road and greatly lessen the need for a major road project as well as getting carbon emissions and car dependency

    Without a big transit project, the docklands and other dense city centre projects will struggle to get enough staff into the city centre.

    Cork (and Limerick) have an opportunity to not repeat the mistakes made in Dublin.


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    #40
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,162 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    If anything, both Cork and Limerick will have make much worse 'mistakes' than Dublin as funds will never be focused there.


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    #41
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    BlinkingLights wrote: »
    My major concern is that the SRR N40 is hitting 100,000 vehicles a day and there's no prospect of really pushing further car traffic into Cork City centre anyway.

    I would just hope the money doesn't get sloshed on the M20 instead of decent mass transit systems in Cork City and Limerick.

    If you'd something like a tramway from Carrigaline to Ballincollig via the City Centre taking in Douglas, Blackrock and up quays, past UCC,CIT, CUH, Wilton, Bishopstown, etc.. and up the main Street of Ballincollig with multiple stops, you'd take huge numbers of cars off the road and greatly lessen the need for a major road project as well as getting carbon emissions and car dependency

    Without a big transit project, the docklands and other dense city centre projects will struggle to get enough staff into the city centre.

    Cork (and Limerick) have an opportunity to not repeat the mistakes made in Dublin.

    WIBN?

    That of course would be an effect of not having the M20 and warrants another split thread perhaps?


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    #42
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    JCX BXC wrote: »
    Shannon is on the wrong side of Limerick no more than Cork is on the wrong side of Cork.

    Limerick can be bypassed to get to Shannon. You currently have to drive through Cork to get to Cork airport. It's not anywhere similar.


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    #43
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,162 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Limerick can be bypassed to get to Shannon. You currently have to drive through Cork to get to Cork airport. It's not anywhere similar.

    My point was they're similar in that they're both on the wrong side of the city. My point on traffic was that you have to go through Cork city, which can be a nightmare. Personally I'll exit at Blarney and get on the N40 from the west, which I find is the easiest way to do it.

    Shannon is quite simple, motorway/dual carriageway right until you're there.

    But Shannon is further from Limerick than Cork Airport is from Cork, but with the ease of traffic that's more than compensated for.

    My point was they're far enough apart and are on the wrong side of the respective cities to affect eachother negatively in much of a way

    Maybe if the two were on the N20 we could actually see one of them becoming inert?


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    #44
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    JCX BXC wrote: »
    My point was they're similar in that they're both on the wrong side of the city. My point on traffic was that you have to go through Cork city, which can be a nightmare. Personally I'll exit at Blarney and get on the N40 from the east, which I find is the easiest way to do it.

    ?

    you mean the west ? Joining the N40 at Ballincollig? The North Ring and the tunnel would be the way to go if you don't want to go through the city but not in rush hour.

    Blarney and over to Victoria Cross and up to the N40 at Wilton is an option but fraught with traffic problems often

    Having said that, I usually go through the city (McCurtain St and the Brian Boru Bridge) and use the South Link. I find that the quickest


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    #45
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,162 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Meant the West, not at ballincollig though, passing the Wilton shopping center and joining that way.


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    #46
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    Isambard wrote: »
    WIBN?

    That of course would be an effect of not having the M20 and warrants another split thread perhaps?

    WIBN?


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    #47
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Wouldn't it be nice.....a phrase used for pipedreams on a certain forum I frequent. Forgot where I was... dementia setting in


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    #48
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    This road needs to be built, if for no other reason than to save lives.

    Both regions and cities will benefit. And I don't need my MSc to know that.


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    #49
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Rightwing has spoken.


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    #50
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The previous M20 plan included te eastern North Ring road as well. I assume this M20 will have the North Ring too because it's infeasible to dump all that new traffic into Blackpool


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    #51
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    it always make me scratch my head....what extra traffic? Won't it be pretty much the existing traffic having travelled safer and speedier?


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    #52
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    Isambard wrote: »
    it always make me scratch my head....what extra traffic? Won't it be pretty much the existing traffic having travelled safer and speedier?

    Well, you could get a bit more if the drive is less off-putting.


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    #53
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Isambard wrote: »
    it always make me scratch my head....what extra traffic? Won't it be pretty much the existing traffic having travelled safer and speedier?

    I think the need for the western leg of the NRR is palpable.
    Inniscarra junction and Western Road/Victoria Cross are at a standstill most mornings and evenings.


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    #54
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Isambard wrote:
    it always make me scratch my head....what extra traffic? Won't it be pretty much the existing traffic having travelled safer and speedier?

    There'll be a lot more. Many people who don't regularly travel between the cities will do so when they can do the journey in 50 minutes. It could potentially lead to the rapid expansion of Limerick and/or Cork too and that would result in more inter city traffic.


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    #55
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    I doubt it.... any increase on the lines you say may be balanced by the people going elsewhere, just because they can.


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    #56
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    I would suspect it's more likely to increase the size of Mallow and Charleville.

    Sense I get is that it would just result in more commuters in proximity to Cork or Limerick and make some of those towns and villages commutable which would be attractive in the current housing crisis but is not really very good from a sustainable development point of view.

    I'm still not really seeing why I would be driving to Limerick on a regular basis. Doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.


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    #57
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    MAllow and Charleville are already pretty much dormitory towns. The effect you mention would probably be on towns/villages further out.


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    #58
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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    #59
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Isambard wrote: »
    it always make me scratch my head....what extra traffic? Won't it be pretty much the existing traffic having travelled safer and speedier?

    Its not that there will be much more traffic, they're probably will be a few percent more, the problem is going to be (if the motorway terminates in The Commons ) that there is huge volumes of traffic all arriving at the same time into a road network that can't handle the volume.

    Look how the tunnel outward bound in the evenings is much worse since the two flyovers went in. Before, those junctions acted as brakes on the traffic restricting traffic to the tunnel, now the restriction is gone the tunnel capacity fills up a lot quicker


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    #60
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    again that makes me scratch my head...how do you make out the traffic is all going to arrive at the same time? The same volume will be arriving , it may be 5 or ten minutes sooner than now but it all will be arriving sooner...


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    #61
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,162 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Isambard wrote: »
    again that makes me scratch my head...how do you make out the traffic is all going to arrive at the same time? The same volume will be arriving , it may be 5 or ten minutes sooner than now but it all will be arriving sooner...

    You're really confusing yourself now, nowhere was it suggested that the traffic from the N20 would be closer together or anything along the lines of that.

    The point was, there would be a much larger volume of traffic arriving at the junction.

    And the traffic volume will increase on another point, look at any of the motorways currently built.


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