Ouch! - ANA Inspiration: Lexi Thompson loses play-off following four-stroke penalty

4Ad

Just watched it..she deserved to get penalised..I dont think it was a genuine mistake. My tuppence worth !

ArmaniJeanss

There needs to be a cutoff point, if it hasn't been spotted by the time the next round begins then it should be considered too late for an x shot penalty (a money penalty could still be done).

A lot of the early starters will have played a particular way because of the large gap to the leader, which as it turns out wasn't such a large gap at all, so the late penalty has potentially affected a lot of the tournament.

CMOTDibbler

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

There needs to be a cutoff point, if it hasn't been spotted by the time the next round begins then it should be considered too late for an x shot penalty (a money penalty could still be done).

A lot of the early starters will have played a particular way because of the large gap to the leader, which as it turns out wasn't such a large gap at all, so the late penalty has potentially affected a lot of the tournament.

End of the tournament still has to be the cutoff. Would it not be worse if somebody cheated on Saturday and even though it's discovered on Sunday, nothing can be done and they win the tournament?

stockdam

ForeRight wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

I don't think anyone is defending what she did when marking the ball. Without any other evidence all you can say is that it was a mistake. As I said earlier, imo, anyone who cheats has tended to do it before and people will have played with them know.
Most people are unhappy that she got a further 2 shot penalty for signing for an incorrect score when, without any evidence, she wasn't aware that she had done anything wrong.

Now if anyone thinks that she deliberately was trying to gain an advantage then I would feel that a disqualification and heavy fine would be apt.

I genuinely think she was trying to gain advantage and don't buy the accidental marking shout.
It doesn't make any sense watching the full footage that it was accidental to me.

Well then it would have been best to disqualifiy her. The rules have changed but anyone who cheats should be disqualified.

Deeper Blue

Tbh even if she'd been disqualified I don't think she could complain. From looking at the footage in real time she blatantly tried to improve her position - no way a pro does that accidentally in my opinion.

FixdePitchmark

NDWC wrote: »

Tbh even if she'd been disqualified I don't think she could complain. From looking at the footage in real time she blatantly tried to improve her position - no way a pro does that accidentally in my opinion.

I looked at it again,

I would have been thinking your way initially.

To be honest, the two marks (spike marks) that are visible are not on the line.

So considering how negligible the perceived improvement is - is there a chance it was an error , a mistake, a misunderstanding, inexperience ?

She is 22, is there a chance that she does not understand the situation as we think she should. The rulings that golfers are asking on - you would have to go back to basics and ask - because they are pros, do they understand the rules. It is getting a bit embarrassing in that the modern pro is coming across as a bit daft and not very smart on the rules of the game they play every day.

A chance - She hasn't actually been advised on the rule ?

Has anyone here actually been trained how to mark a ball ? - I often look at lads fix pitch marks rising roots and doing it wrong and damaging course, experienced low handicap players who are the supposed oracles of the game.


Marking a ball is an interesting part of golf, that HD and slow motion has passed out. We basically are studying an imperfect procedure in a perfect HD way.

If there is a golfer on here who claims they replace their ball in the same place every time - I don't believe it.

You are dealing with too many variables, like. Ball not a perfect sphere, the point of contact on the coin and the imperfect surface. If you were being perfect, marking a ball should never happen.

In snooker to deal with this they have a precision tool - a coin is not that as the point of contact is too small. It theory it is one single point, if the golfer has actually touched ball and coin, even this I would say is varied much.

The modern pro is doing all sort of crazy line up methods , this has come into amateur game. It is a joke, too slow and over tolerated.

I'd suggest seriously restrict this nonsense, going as far as saying a hand should never touch a ball until in the hole. unless seriously in line with another player.

Things have got out of hand when a pro on live tv can - line up a line on a ball from 18 inches.

Ban it

Armchair Andy

There should be no marking a ball under a club length. The players putter namely.
Stick the head of the club into the hole, it touches the grip, hit it again.

Jawgap

A couple of observations based on a previous 'career' as a referee in two other sports.....

.....first, she broke rules and if she didn't know she was breaking the rules she should've, especially as she is a professional.

....second, somebody watching TV shouldn't be able to call a penalty on a player - either the player calls a penalty on themselves, a playing partner calls for a ruling or rules official spots it - everyone else is 'out of the game' and should be treated as such. You could only imagine the farce that would've taken place if she'd won and the armchair ref spotted he infraction watching the highlights or watching it back having recorded it several days later

.....third, one thing a lot of people like about golf is the 'personal honour' element of it and the game is replete with examples of players who called penalties on themselves, sometimes at great cost, but another thing people find irritating are the rules and the strict interpretation of them.....I've said it before, but golf really does need to adopt the concept of 'materiality' into its rules - if an infringement doesn't materially benefit a player it should be ignored......a lot of the purists might disagree with this, but a dogmatic approach to the rules is, in my opinion, something that turns a lot of people off the game.

Running Balance

From watching the clip - its imo pretty obvious she has tried to improve her lie.

Its not like she has placed the coin walked away and came after her playing partner played her shot.
she could argue she forgot she marked it at the side.
Like when a player asks you to move your marker during their putt and you forget to replace the marker to the original position.

CMOTDibbler

Armchair Andy wrote: »

There should be no marking a ball under a club length. The players putter namely.
Stick the head of the club into the hole, it touches the grip, hit it again.

Some players depend on a line marking on their ball to make a good putt. Penalising them because somebody doesn't know how to mark a ball seems ott.

Fix has a lovely stream of consciousness post above which I really appreciated, but..

She only lifted the ball a couple of inches. At most. The coin was placed quite a bit off line with the ball and hole. Now there's hardly a golfer on the planet who isn't used to placing the coin on line with the ball and hole. There's a very simple reason for this because most of us do it to clean the ball and remove it from the surface for our playing partner(s) to take their putt(s). Placing the coin in line with the ball and hole means the ball can be replaced pretty accurately. Placing it offline means the ball will be replaced in a different position if you use the normal method. Which she did.

There's a small indentation on the original line that I've circled in red below:

AnneFrank

To be fair to the girl she took it on the chin aswell,
she is not moaning about it, took responsibility and said she will learn from it.
I'd like to think it was a mistake but who knows, but i give her credit for the way she took it,
if that was a spieth or mcilroy you'd never hear the end of it

Halfprice

The bit that gets me is the way she moved the ball. She hardly lifted it off d ground. Most of us would lift it that bit higher and move the ball a bit more about in our hands before replacing it and would of lined it up if goin to that trouble of marking it knowing how well we are going and taking no chances. Its like she seen it settle in in a hole an decided to move it and improve her lie. Been a major she didnt want to take the chance of missing it and it been in her head for a few holes an let the field back in. I honesty think she new what she was at. The evidence from the telly shows that in my opinion.

Golfgorfield

Ok so having learned whats happened as best possible, a few things have come to light.

If she is as she claims totally unaware of what happened and was so shocked by it, why at no stage did she ask hard questions about where/when and ask to be shown the video??? From the 13th fway to the end, to the playoff to her teary interview and her high fiving the crowd.

Looking at the video of when she was told she didn't really ask hard questions like someone that had no idea, that tells me she knew and remembered exactly what happened.

I know if it was me and i had no clue or recollection id have demanded evidence and been arguing a lot more before accepting any penalty, Major final round or not!

Im not buying it for one second.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

So considering how negligible the perceived improvement is - is there a chance it was an error , a mistake, a misunderstanding, inexperience ?

She is 22, is there a chance that she does not understand the situation as we think she should. The rulings that golfers are asking on - you would have to go back to basics and ask - because they are pros, do they understand the rules. It is getting a bit embarrassing in that the modern pro is coming across as a bit daft and not very smart on the rules of the game they play every day.

A chance - She hasn't actually been advised on the rule ?

Interesting post Fix.

I very much doubt its a case of ignorance though. I mean, when you're a junior playing golf and learning, why would you ever put the ball back on a different spot to where you lifted it from ? It just wouldn't enter your head, or at least it never crossed my mind when I was a junior anyway. Why would anyone think its ok to move your ball like that ?

A mistake - I could maybe buy that if she'd even stood up and cleaned the ball and then put it back down, but to literally mark the ball, move it half an inch to the side and pick the coin back up is stretching it a bit for me tbh. The media seem to be giving her an "out" by saying because she marked it from side on, it was an easy mistake to make. I suppose in theory, if her hand was obscuring her view slightly, the different perspective from side-on, might possibly explain it, but honestly I don't think so.

To expand a little, I sometimes wonder are there certain things on the tours that a collective blind eye is thrown to ? There was the Chella Choi incident (worth looking at on youtube), now this one which is pretty much the same thing, you'd almost wonder if this kind of marking is commonplace and not viewed as a "real" infraction. Or it could be the case that the repeat offenders are well known to the majority of honest players and its only a matter of time before they're caught. Hopefully its the latter, I'm lead to believe it is.

cgh

I think the USGA and R&A now need to look at this trail by TV,
if the competition committee don't pick up on it on the day before a round is complete then I think the score should stand as signed for,
if you are to be penalized for a offence like this you need to be pulled up before your round is finished.
I would also think that at this level we cant have armchair rules referees.

Golfgorfield

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I looked at it again,

I would have been thinking your way initially.

To be honest, the two marks (spike marks) that are visible are not on the line.

So considering how negligible the perceived improvement is - is there a chance it was an error , a mistake, a misunderstanding, inexperience ?

She is 22, is there a chance that she does not understand the situation as we think she should. The rulings that golfers are asking on - you would have to go back to basics and ask - because they are pros, do they understand the rules. It is getting a bit embarrassing in that the modern pro is coming across as a bit daft and not very smart on the rules of the game they play every day.

A chance - She hasn't actually been advised on the rule ?

Has anyone here actually been trained how to mark a ball ? - I often look at lads fix pitch marks rising roots and doing it wrong and damaging course, experienced low handicap players who are the supposed oracles of the game.


Marking a ball is an interesting part of golf, that HD and slow motion has passed out. We basically are studying an imperfect procedure in a perfect HD way.

If there is a golfer on here who claims they replace their ball in the same place every time - I don't believe it.

You are dealing with too many variables, like. Ball not a perfect sphere, the point of contact on the coin and the imperfect surface. If you were being perfect, marking a ball should never happen.

In snooker to deal with this they have a precision tool - a coin is not that as the point of contact is too small. It theory it is one single point, if the golfer has actually touched ball and coin, even this I would say is varied much.

The modern pro is doing all sort of crazy line up methods , this has come into amateur game. It is a joke, too slow and over tolerated.

I'd suggest seriously restrict this nonsense, going as far as saying a hand should never touch a ball until in the hole. unless seriously in line with another player.

Things have got out of hand when a pro on live tv can - line up a line on a ball from 18 inches.

Ban it

She has played LPGA events since she was 13, she i s a major champion and multiple tournament winner, age is no excuse.

Jawgap

Golfgorfield wrote: »

She has played LPGA events since she was 13, she i s a major champion and multiple tournament winner, age is no excuse.

+1 on that.

she is a professional sports person - not only that she's a professional pretty much at the peak of her chosen field. Maybe she was unaware of the exact rules but it's still no excuse, nor is it an excuse to say the rule is a bit daft or that penalising someone after a fan spots it is ridiculous.

Quite simply people outside the game (as in anyone not playing in the group, or a designated rules official) should not be entertained when reporting possible infringements......but until then players need to be aware they are under incredible scrutiny and behave accordingly.

stockdam

Running Balance wrote: »

From watching the clip - its imo pretty obvious she has tried to improve her lie.

........she could argue she forgot she marked it at the side.

I'm always skeptical when anyone marks the ball to the side. The safest and best way to mark is right behind the ball and then it is clear to yourself where to replace the ball. I tend to feel that anyone marking at the side wants to move the ball slightly forwards and not replace it correctly.
Anyway she'll now know that she can't do this in future. A harsh lesson but I'd rather that she learnt than won the tournament.......we'd be talking about it for months if she had won and how lucky she was or that she should have been disqualified.
For me if there's evidence of cheating then she should be disqualified and get no prize money.

ThunderCat

The more I watch it the more damning it is. She cheated. She saw where her ball was in relation to the hole, didn't like the line due to spike marks or whatever and deliberately gained an advantage by moving the ball to the side to avoid whatever was in her line that she didn't like in the first place. I cannot accept it was an accident. Why and when would you ever mark your ball, pick it up for a split second and only a few inches off the ground and replace, and all about a foot from the hole. The fact she was so close to the ball only further shows that there is no way she could not have realised she put it back in an incorrect position. And it didn't look to me like she turned the ball to line up a logo or line etc. The real stigma here is people afraid to label her a cheat which is what she clearly is.




I originally did not agree with someone being able to call in and bring it to the LPGA's attention but do you know what, if she played within the rules then she has nothing to worry about even if every person on Earth was watching it. Had no-one emailed in then she would have more than likely won a major and cheated in doing so which is a far bigger crime than a member of the public alerting the rules officials to the incident. I also have no problem in their timing of telling her as she cheated and deserved to be punished for it regardless of it being a day late.


Lastly, lets say this is her first time to do this, it doesn't change the fact she cheated and all cheats have to start somewhere.

Running Balance

Not knowing the rules is a load of b0ll0cks.

When italy played england in rugby and there was the whole offside line debate - how we laughed when england didnt know the rule.

We didnt say then ah they are only young lads!!

ForeRight

The reason she didn't put up any fight or argument straight away is because she knew well what she was caught doing imo.

The arrogance to think she could do what she did is mind blowing.

The fact she did it so blatant shows that arrogance.

The fact she did such a blatant thing makes me believe that it's not the first time she has done it and I'm just patiently waiting now for a host of examples where she has done similar.

I've no sympathy at all for her.

FixdePitchmark

Running Balance wrote: »

Not knowing the rules is a load of b0ll0cks.

When italy played england in rugby and there was the whole offside line debate - how we laughed when england didnt know the rule.

We didnt say then ah they are only young lads!!

But they didn't know rule . Isn't that the point.

I think we overestimate how well golfers know the rules.

I'm not saying that was case here . But I can't see the advantage she gained . So why break a rule for no advantage .

Wombatman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But they didn't know rule . Isn't that the point.

I think we overestimate how well golfers know the rules.

I'm not saying that was case here . But I can't see the advantage she gained . So why break a rule for no advantage .

I think we would all pay more attention to the rules with 50 cameras trained on us. How many infringements would be spotted at our local clubs on a given Sunday if under the same scrutiny?

frostyjacks

AnneFrank wrote: »

To be fair to the girl she took it on the chin aswell,
she is not moaning about it, took responsibility and said she will learn from it.
I'd like to think it was a mistake but who knows, but i give her credit for the way she took it,
if that was a spieth or mcilroy you'd never hear the end of it

She took it on the chin? She blubbed like a little girl. She denied it was intentional, but clearly she could see where she was placing the ball. The brass neck of sportsmen and women when they've been caught out is breathtaking.

CMOTDibbler

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But they didn't know rule . Isn't that the point.

If they didn't, it was the biggest collective brain fart ever witnessed. Since at least two of that team had actually used the tactic in a premiership match the previous month. What they didn't know (imo) was what to do about it. Less a rules issue and more a tactical nous one.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think we overestimate how well golfers know the rules.

I'm not saying that was case here . But I can't see the advantage she gained . So why break a rule for no advantage .

I can understand a golfer not knowing that touching a dead leaf in a hazard before striking the ball is a penalty or even that they had actually done so. But placing your ball in a different position from where you picked it up is known to everyone as a violation. We had all the hoo-ha about DJ's ball moving on the green last year just to remind us of how a little movement can be a big issue.

As for the gain or otherwise. I've a pic above which is a bit grainy, but you can see a slight indentation in the line of her original position. It looks like a continuation of the spike marks that are more visible to the right of her line. It's more obvious in the video, but it's there. Incidentally, you could also see something in the line of Chella Choi's putt that she moved her ball to avoid in the Canadian Pacific that she withdrew from.

Russman

Surely moving your ball like she did doesn't come down to knowing the rules or not, though. I mean what kind of logic would you need to have to think that moving your ball is actually ok ? Common sense alone would have you replace the ball back to where you marked it.

AnneFrank

frostyjacks wrote: »

She took it on the chin? She blubbed like a little girl. She denied it was intentional, but clearly she could see where she was placing the ball. The brass neck of sportsmen and women when they've been caught out is breathtaking.

to be fair she is sort of a little girl !!
you can't be certain she did it cheating, it could just be stupidity, hard as it for anyone to believe, but then we have never played in that environment

blackwhite

Golfgorfield wrote: »

That video is so damning, its beyond belief anyone can think it was a mistake.

It she'd lifted the ball and cleaned it, or anything that took a few seconds, then you could argue for an honest mistake.

But she probably moved it further horizontally then she even had it off the ground :eek:

Golfgorfield

AnneFrank wrote: »

to be fair she is sort of a little girl !!
you can't be certain she did it cheating, it could just be stupidity, hard as it for anyone to believe, but then we have never played in that environment

Shes a hardened seasoned pro thats won majors and played solheim cup.
The video is very bad looking.
Shes far from stupid when it comes to golf.
In that environment your concentration should be heightened, not lax to the point of marking the ball and throwing it back down anywhere at all....

CMOTDibbler

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Shes a hardened seasoned pro thats won majors and played solheim cup.
The video is very bad looking.
Shes far from stupid when it comes to golf.
In that environment your concentration should be heightened, not lax to the point of marking the ball and throwing it back down anywhere at all....

Marking to one side is almost an indication of premeditation. I say 'almost' because I haven't noticed anyone doing it as a general rule but am open to correction.