Advice on Wheels

Redial

Hi All,
Looking to purchase a bike next year or the end of this year having competed for the past few years on a Ridley Fenix road bike with Shimano Ultegra 11s and Fulcrum racing Quattro H35 wheels.  Looking to purchase wheels now to spread out the economic and social impact to the household and also so I have them in advance and maybe use them on the Ridley if possible this year.  What are the things I need to be aware of and any recommendations? 
I've been looking at the Revolver or FFWD wheels which seem to be mid range price wise.  Revolver get decent reviews.  I'd like to go new wheels rather than second hand.  Zipp appear to be overkill for a middle of the pack merchant like me and I understand that kgs will make me faster than any wheel will so decent spec rather than brilliant will do I suspect. I believe (think) that I will need to replace brake pads if using on the Ridley.  Is this correct?  Also, if I go with an Argon 18 purchase at the end of the year do I need to bring this in to consideration when purchasing the wheels?  I am also aware that before I purchase a bike I should get a bike fit which I never have so I know definitively what bike will work. 
Thanks!

joey100

Never seen revolver wheels but know a few from here have FF wheels. You would need to change the brake pads if your going for a full carbon wheel, a wheel with a carbon brake track. FFWD used to do wheels that had an aluminium brake track so if you could get these that would save the need for the new pads and also mean you can swap the wheels from bike to bike provided they are the same speed.

Check out swiss side wheels, they give different options, have one model with an alu braking track and allow you to buy a deeper rear wheel than front wheel.

I have no experience of full carbon wheels but the thing that keeps popping up about them is that they aren't as good for braking as an alu rim. For me, I'd prefer the better braking than the weight saving.

A lot of people would recommend a pre-bike fit before buying a bike to see what model and size would suit you best. The newer bikes are getting better and better at covering a large range of sizes though. I'd probably recommend going somewhere that isn't part of a bike shop, reckon they would probably steer you towards the bikes they sell rather than the best model, but think a lot of them ask you to come in with a bike in mind and they try and fit you to the measurements of that bike. The bike fit place in gormanstown definitely have one of the adjustable bikes that they can copy other bikes measurements on. Aidan Hammond is normally recommended as a bike fitter too but not sure if he does pre-bike fits or only existing bike fits.

Redial

Thanks for taking the time to respond Joey.  It is much appreciated. 
On the pre purchase fit, does this mean a Retul assessment or something similar?  Anyone have recommendations for someone in the South of the country?  I believe Jerry in the Edge Cork is excellent when it comes to setting a bike up but not sure they do pre purchase also.  I am also aware of the Giant fit service available in Ballincollig but not sure if this is just for Giant bikes.  I suspect that my position is not going to be very aggressive initially given I will be riding a tri bars for the first time and I have a weak core currently so wondering how this slots in to the thought process up front.  Hopefully over time I'll get some further tweaks as things progress and I adapt. 
On the wheels if I removed the desire to swap between the future bike and my current roadie would you change your opinion and go from Alu to carbon?  Or would my MOP status and average handling skills require better breaking availability? - It's ok to say yes!  I assume clinchers are the best option.  Also, would a 60/60 or 90/90 or combo type set up be the best to go for?
Thanks again!

joey100

No problem at all.

Yep ruteul is one brand that do them, not sure if their is others but I'd guess there is. I'm Dublin based so no real knowledge of anyone down in cork!

The braking surface is up to you. Depends how good your handling is and how confident you are on the bike. Personally I went for an ALU braking rim, I'm not the best descender and like to have brakes that work even a little bit!

The same with the 60 vs 90 on the front. The deeper front wheels can be more twitchy in cross winds. Again I went for a 60, I'm light and again not the best bike handler so better for me to be more comfortable on the bike than worrying about crosswinds.

Braking surface and wheel depth is more about you and how comfortable you are on the bike!

Redial

Super info again Joey!

So it looks like the FF wheels are a good option. I'll take your sage advice on the alloy/carbon and also on the handling for the front wheel for a 60 and go with that too. 

On Wiggle I see a "Fast Forward F6R Alloy/Carbon Clincher Front Wheel" for E553 and there's a "Fast Forward F6R Alloy/Carbon Clincher Rear Wheel" for E685.  Is a 60 on the back sensible also or is a 90 preferable?  I don't see an Alloy/ Carbon F9R on wiggle.

Final q: The back wheel says it's "compatible with Shimano SRAM 9/10/11 speed or Campagnolo 10/11 speed freehub".  I assume this covers me for compatibility with the Ultegra 11s set up on my existing roadie but want to be sure that it does.  Also I assume it makes sense to buy an extra Shimano Ultegra 6800 11-Speed Cassette at the same time and stick it on to the back wheel full time.  I'm not sure how to do that but as long as I have the right gear, youtube might give me a hand at that stage!

Thanks again!

joey100

Yep buy the extra cassette and put it on the new wheels, swapping cassettes is easy enough but it's messy and your better off with one on each back wheel anyway. Once the wheels are 11 speed compatible, pretty much every new wheel is, they will swap ok between bikes, chain length might be an issue so try to match the cassettes. So the current wheels might have a 12-28 cassette, try to match the new cassette to that.

If you can get a 90 rear wheel I'd go for that, the rear wheel isn't affected really by cross winds so you can go deep on the rear no problem. Have a look local for FFWD wheels, I know a few shops up in Dublin used to be as good price wise as the internet. Be worth checking around.

mossym

i'm going to disagree with Joey on one aspect here

first, the FFWD wheels are a good choice, i have a FFWD disc and i love it, i'll probably be looking at a set of wheels later in the year and i'll probably go ffwd.

however, i wouldn't go 90 on the rear. on a very windy day having a wheel with less depth would be useful i'd get the 60, then pick up a cheap wheel cover that would convert the rear into a disc when you needed. that way you get the best of both worlds.

that's expecially true if you are going to be using them for non racing. i'm not sure i'd be going out for my sunday spins on a 90mm back wheel. if you have other training wheels though the 90mm might make sense.

one example, last year kilkee was pretty windy, left the disc in the car and raced on my 50mm's, not sure i would have enjoyed or gotten any benefit from the disc there that day, and it wasn't even that bad!!

Redial

Thanks mossy & joey!

mossy - I couldn't find a matching 90 carbon/ alloy option for the back to go with joey's 60 carbon/ alloy in the front recommendation, so started to wonder what the time difference would be if I stuck with a 60 on the back also.  At the same time as finding out more about yaw than I thought I'd ever need to know, the cover popped up as an option a couple of times which could complement and satisfy my needs.

If that is the recommended option, are there any suitable covers for a 60 out there if I went down that road?  From what I can see covers seem to be particular to wheels.

Thanks again to you both. It is much appreciated.

mossym

covers are wheel specific. i got one for a pair of kysriums from
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/aerodisc.html

and it seems most get them from there, they do them for most of the common wheel tyoes. they don't list teh ffwd wheels, but contact them and tell them what you are looking for, i'd bet they can do it, they don't list the ffwd in their incompatible wheels

actually reminds me i must sell the cover for the ksyrium

gerfmurphy

I have flo wheels (60/90)find them very good. Im no expert but they are noticeably faster than my shimano 500 training wheels. they
Are clincher with alu braking surface

pgibbo

gerfmurphy wrote: »

I have flo wheels (60/90)find them very good. Im no expert but they are noticeably faster than my shimano 500 training wheels. they
Are clincher with alu braking surface

Same setup I have. Love them.

Redial

I'm going to empty out the remaining silly questions that come to mind on the table if I may to close this out.  Thanks in advance again for your help:

1. Cassette - To keep it simple I'm going to get a Ultegra cassette so I can use the wheels with my road bike this year but also future proof it for my next bike.  I believe a 105 will also work.  Does the crankset up front (Rotor 3DF 52/36) have any influence on what cassette I chose for the back or does it only matter that I go for an Ultegra 11 and can chose which ever suits my purpose?  Do I need to make any allowances for the chain size based on the Ultegra 11 cassette or again will this be irrelevant once it is Ultegra 11 compatible?  I have a KMC X11 on the road bike
2. Tyre options - Is a 23mm or 25mm a better option for the FFWD 60 wheels?  I have seen some info on reducing the aero effectiveness of the wheels depending on your choice.  The GP 4000s II seem to be a good option
3. Tubes - Do the wheels typically come with a valve extension of some sort?  Does this mean that normal tubes will do or do I need longer valves?
4. Will my head ever recover from this and am I overthinking it?

Thanks yaw'll (pun intended and used for the first and last time)

joey100

Yep, def over thinking it! I have the flo wheels too but with the strength of the dollar and increasingly getting caught for customs and import fees they aren't the bargain they used to be.

You can go for any shimano 11 speed cassette you want. 105 is a good option, not as pricey as ultegra. The chain on your road bike will fit the new cassette as its 11 speed. Chain ring on the front doesn't really matter to the cassette in the back. Try just to make sure you get the same size cassette on the back (11-25/
, 12-28,) if your not sure bring it into a bike shop and buy the cassette off them and ask them to match it to your existing one. Will be more expensive but they will do the work and you shouldnt have to worry about it being different then.

mossym

on the tyres, i rpefer running 25's, more comfortable, and if the reports are right, faster. you cna run either though on the flo's

for tubes, you can either get tubes with longer valve, or you can get valve extenders which screw onto normal vales. if you go latex tubes, the longer valves are harder to find so you may have to go with the externders

EC1000

mossym wrote: »

if you go latex tubes, the longer valves are harder to find so you may have to go with the externders

Slightly off topic but...

In my experience I would avoid valve extenders if possible. The connection to the short valve can be a trouble spot for loss of tyre pressure. Also, if you are changing tubes in a hurry, you will either need additional extenders on your spare tube (with plumber's tape in situ) or you would have to transfer the extenders to your new tube from the old one.

The above is no major issue if you are at home and have time but during a spin can be a pain.

mossym

i usually rock vlatext tunes in the wheels, with valve extenders, and a normal tube as my backup with a long valve, that way no need to worry about the externders if having to change, plus you don't have to be as careful changing the tube given how fragile the latex ones are supposed to be(i;ve never had an issue installing one though)

Redial

Post swallowed so go again with cliffnotes version!

FFWD suggested that the 23s were optimal but other sources suggest that 25s are a better ride and offer less rolling resistance "at the same pressure" and who needs more right?!?  Got 25s as I could use them on road bike if advice here was to go back to 23s.

Cassette looks like it's a 11-28 so got the same.  Who knew it was written on each of the cogs (Not me!).

Went for 80mm valves for tubes to clear the 60s which I assume will be fine.  And now latex is throw in to the mix probably for speed and weight reasons again I bet (Edit: I now read that they are less prone to pinching and run "better").  Will look in to them.

So, wheels and additionals are on order.  Thanks to mossy and joey in particular for advice and taking the time to respond.  It is much appreciated.  I've learned just about enough to be even more annoying in a conversation if that was possible.  You've definitely saved me from making mistakes which would probably translate in to euros and I'm sure I would not have completed the purchase without your advice.  The permutations and considerations would have gotten the better of me I suspect.  Hopefully some other newbies in the future get some use out of the thread or it can serve as an example of the things not to ask if you don't know.

So faster wheels means liberties to eat more cake right?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

EC1000 wrote: »

Slightly off topic but...

In my experience I would avoid valve extenders if possible. The connection to the short valve can be a trouble spot for loss of tyre pressure. Also, if you are changing tubes in a hurry, you will either need additional extenders on your spare tube (with plumber's tape in situ) or you would have to transfer the extenders to your new tube from the old one.

The above is no major issue if you are at home and have time but during a spin can be a pain.

+1, I have less than fond memories in Abu Dhabi running around 15mins before race start trying to get a faulty valve extender sorted.

Go with FFWD 60 front+back alu clinchers with 25mm tyres.

peter kern

i would buy a disc cover for your current rear wheel
and look for a good deal on a front wheel 2nd hand ( or new swiss side)
for 2nd hand wheels hed would be a good choice for instance hed jet 6
the quattro wheel is a v good wheel for a disc cover
and honestly for a mid pack triathelte I would almost keep it a the front and make sure you used good tyres and tubes.
of course a 60mm type front wheel will give you maybe another 30 sec over 40 k ....
is it worth it you have to ask
at the end of the day its more importatn to match tyres to the wheel
and you could be a front wheel and with a bad tyre choice it would not be better than your current wheel with the best tyre choice.

if wind is a problem in ireland for disc wheel and 60 mm wheel and you are over 70k than you have bike handlong skills that you should solve first before buying an aero wheel and need to ride aero wheel more. likewise if you have issues whith a 90 mm aero wheel)
I have never seen a day in ireland where i would not go for a disc wheel. and in 10 years there was only one race where they were not allowed ( athlone 2010 and amost not alowed at dua nats 2015 )

and i would stay alu breaking surface .

the most bomb proof wheel is a hed 3 spoke which can be picked up quite cheap at times paired with the right tyre they are still great wheels.
I know for the op this might be a bit to much info ( and joeys is basically great advise )
but as i say for a middle of the pack atheltes a fulcrum quattro wheel is not a bad wheel with a disc cover .

Redial wrote: »

Hi All,
Looking to purchase a bike next year or the end of this year having competed for the past few years on a Ridley Fenix road bike with Shimano Ultegra 11s and Fulcrum racing Quattro H35 wheels. Looking to purchase wheels now to spread out the economic and social impact to the household and also so I have them in advance and maybe use them on the Ridley if possible this year. What are the things I need to be aware of and any recommendations?
I've been looking at the Revolver or FFWD wheels which seem to be mid range price wise. Revolver get decent reviews. I'd like to go new wheels rather than second hand. Zipp appear to be overkill for a middle of the pack merchant like me and I understand that kgs will make me faster than any wheel will so decent spec rather than brilliant will do I suspect. I believe (think) that I will need to replace brake pads if using on the Ridley. Is this correct? Also, if I go with an Argon 18 purchase at the end of the year do I need to bring this in to consideration when purchasing the wheels? I am also aware that before I purchase a bike I should get a bike fit which I never have so I know definitively what bike will work.
Thanks!

68 lost souls

peter kern wrote: »

if wind is a problem in ireland for disc wheel and 60 mm wheel and you are over 70k than you have bike handlong skills that you should solve first before buying an aero wheel and need to ride aero wheel more. likewise if you have issues whith a 90 mm aero wheel)
I have never seen a day in ireland where i would not go for a disc wheel. and in 10 years there was only one race where they were not allowed ( athlone 2010 and amost not alowed at dua national)

Crooked lake 2015 banned deep dish wheels and disc wheels

gerfmurphy

I dont think the ban on wheels was enforced in the end.
This was part of the safety notice.
I was on deep section without any questions.
They should have banned the drafting. Ha

Please be aware that disc wheels and deep rimmed wheels (particularly front) have been a bone of contention over the last few years. If the weather is bad enough for the referee to deem a disc wheel unsafe, then he has the final call, and can ban their use. If a specific wheel is banned, then it applies to all athletes, the referee has the final decision. If you plan to race on deep rimmed or disc wheels, then ensure you bring an alternative JUST IN CASE.

Redial

Thanks for the well thought through response Peter.  I do get it.  What's going to buy me the most speed in the long term I cannot get with a credit card or by replacing the roadbike with a tri bike.  Or maybe I can buy it if I invest in the right places (such as a coach). I had hoped to put that across in this thread with my own responses. The year after next I'm possibly planning to go long for the first time.  Having done Dublin and the Lost Sheep over the past few years I hope to take it on but preferably not on my Ridley getting in and out of the drops as often as possible (which I know if maximized properly would still serve the needs of a MOP merchant!). The wheels are part of that upgrade path and plan as much as anything to soften the financial blow over time.

 

So with that in mind, taking your points above in to account relating to the importance of matching correctly, what do you recommended tyre and tube wise for FFWD F6Rs?  I know it’s not simple assume all other things are equal enough on an average Irish day.

woody1

what about just upgrading the stock wheels that come with the bike ,
in my case they are felt ttr4s that came with a second hand b16 ,
to race wheels ,

is there a set of race wheels that people would recommend,

joey100

Yep don't think they were banned that day in the end at crooked lake, it was a horrible day though. They were banned at one of the Naas Duathlons last year, think it was the middle one. But that's the only race I can think of that they were banned at.

@Woody, Swiss side wheels get a good review and seem to be reasonable (a relative term!). You have the option to mix and match the wheels and because they are in the EU there is no VAT or customs added. Would recommend FLO wheels too but not as good value as they were at one time. FFWD wheels would also be recommended, I remember a fair few shops selling them for what they were online too.

Thinking at the moment seems to be that a U shaped fairing rather than a V shaped fairing is faster and easier to control in cross winds. I'd keep an eye second hand too, some great times out there at times. I got a set of FLO 60's, FLO disc, all in wheels bags with tyres and cassettes for 1000 euro this time last year.