National Championship 2017

TGD

flatty wrote: »

This complaining is dreadful. It makes me ashamed. I'm an oldish man, who couldn't even race cat 4, but I could have comfortably stayed at that speed.
Well done to all concerned, and f3ck the whingers.

The over-60 men with a field of just 12 were faster than the elite women. But that's neither here nor there - it all depends on the dynamic of any particular race on any particular day. But it does show that the organizers made a reasonable call on the logistics and it's a very challenging event to run. The commissars had no other option on the day - they did their job as per the rules. I can imagine how the women might have been peed off tho.

wexandproud

Irish Raven wrote: »

Comparing times from last year with the women is irrelevant, the course was completely different, and the weather was awful last year. Chalk and cheese.

From speaking to 9 r 10 of the women yesterday, pretty much all said it was very very negative and at no point up to the last climb did anyone attempt to attack.

The reasons for this are unknown...and i know a couple were scratching their heads after, wondering why they didnt push it on!!

less than 2 minutes separating the listed finishers say's it all really

1bryan

Irish Raven wrote: »

I think that last line is it in a nut shell....i dont think any finger should be pointed at the organising club (and some of them shouldnt be so defensive n scrambling on here, a public views forum, nobody is critising them, just giving opinions).

yep, they need to 'man' up and accept some responsibility for what happened. Not start pointing fingers elsewhere. If they did that, apologised for what happened, then I'm sure we could all move on.

1bryan

Homer1798 wrote: »

Just to clarify a few things, from someone who was there. When the Women's race was stopped the bunch was together complete as 1 group, the last riders to get back on did so well before Castlebridge, so well before the decision was made to stop the race. The women's race attracted a small enough field and this may have contributed to a very negative race, by negative I mean 1 rider attacked after the start of the race and got a small gap & was caught soon after, the next attack was the winners attack on the Codds Lane climb which broke up the field into 3 small groups & some stragglers(2 of these joined to form the group racing for silver). So 2 attacks in 94 km, that's negative. The race was stopped for about 4 minutes waiting for the men's race, which when it arrived was spread over 6 minutes from front to back. Plus about 2 minutes to get the Women's race ready to roll again, it was neutralised for about 1km to let everyone settle in again. Did this delay affect the outcome of the race? I don't think so, Lydia Boylan won, no surprise there, Lauren Creamer was 2nd no surprise there and 3rd was Ellen McDermot, no real surprise there either, the remainder of the chasing bunch was made up of the best domestic riders, Eve McCrystal, Kathrine Smith (both of the best performing domestic riders this season) Fiona Meade (former National Champion) Sinead Oakes (Masters Champion) Grace Young (2nd Masters) plus Lydia Gurley, Irish Track Squad & Claire McIlwaine, all these, women without exception would have been there with or without the stoppage, of those those that might have been expected to be in the front group.... Josie Knight @53sec gave up her own chances to lead her team mate Boylan into the final climb, Eillen Burns (National TT Champion) finished @ 23secs, Kelly Murphy (2nd in TT) also finished in this group @ 23 secs, there was nobody else fancied that could claim to be disadvantaged, Fiona Guighen was the only rider to have a mechanical while in the bunch, and she got back on easily. So the race was stopped but the outcome was the same. Those complaining here should be aware that last year the Champs had to move venue 3 times, when no club in Munster could run it Orwell Wheelers took the reins and saved it despite having to change venue from the Phoenix Park to Blessington to Kilcullen, this year the event organiser (all volunteers) gets berated by keyboard warriors, because according to them it wasn't good enough, lets hope next year there is a champs, because it is a mammoth event to run and clubs are now in fear of running them due to the unjustified negative comments being aimed their way.

there was ~20 minutes or so between first and last in the men's race when they came around the the women's race.

1bryan

wav1 wrote: »

Simply cannot believe the slating that the organisers are getting on here about the weekend.I first saw the plans for this back in November 2015 and since the organisers were granted the champs some time later they have done absouloutely nothing else only plan plan plan and more plan.
People seem to forget that these things are all put together by volunteers.
Was everything perfect NO
Will they always be perfect NO
Did all the organising crew try their best YES
ye have no idea what goes into all this.Getting off work early,Falling out with spouses,not seeing kids is only a part of it.
I would personally like to congratulate the crew on a Trojan effort at the weekend.
Spoken about here earlier I know but the format of this weekend looks like changing for next year.More on this in due course.Needs to be checked whether ir requires a motion to AGM or not.
Anyway its due in Connaght next year and I wish my counterpart in that province all the best when they have to try and sell this event to some club they hope to step up and promote it.Hope theres not too many from Connaght looking at the negative vibes here or the riders who were crowned champs yesterday could end up having their titles for longer than was expected.Funny enough I have heard very little in the lines of complaints from any riders.

Did the organisers make a mistake: YES
Did the organisers accept responsibility for that mistake: NO

It's a real Irish thing, isn't it, to say 'ah, but they're volunteers, tis grand'. Really, volunteers or not, if we don't demand the highest standards of ourselves then how can we expect the highest standards from our competitors.

Every sport in this country is run by volunteers. I'm sure everyone here has volunteered many times, be it marshalling, organising, whatever. Of course it's noble and it's great when people give of their time, but it doesn't excuse poor standards, nor does it indemnify when things go wrong.

An apology is due and all I hear are insults.

greenspurs

nee wrote: »

The nationals are not a club race, they're the pinnacle of the season.

Stopping the race on the last lap is unjustifiable, that's not to undermine the organising club or the time and effort of the volunteers that went into organising it.

It's not right, or fair, or justified. The race went how it went, it went at the same speed as last year so it can't have been a surprise. It didn't work, lessons can be learned.

It just goes to show the esteem women's cycling is held in. It's not encouraging.
It's also embarrassing for the sport.

It's been picked up outside of here too:
https://totalwomenscycling.com/race-news/womens-elite-peloton-forced-pull-mens-race-pass#SfvkmxX92cuciRV1.97


ETA also agree that CI should step in to help organising clubs with the event. Is a huge ask for any club, and help should be given.

What would you have done , if it was your decision?

I agree about Cycling Ireland..... How can the sports Governing body not contribute (anything?) to the National Championships !?
It beggars belief .......

perrier

1bryan wrote: »

Did the organisers make a mistake: YES
Did the organisers accept responsibility for that mistake: NO

It's a real Irish thing, isn't it, to say 'ah, but they're volunteers, tis grand'. Really, volunteers or not, if we don't demand the highest standards of ourselves then how can we expect the highest standards from our competitors.

Every sport in this country is run by volunteers. I'm sure everyone here has volunteered many times, be it marshalling, organising, whatever. Of course it's noble and it's great when people give of their time, but it doesn't excuse poor standards, nor does it indemnify when things go wrong.

An apology is due and all I hear are insults.

As you appear to be arguing with yourself over breakfast, would someone from the organisation please come on here and apologise as apparently it's "due". For the sake of the children

greenspurs

Lydia Boylan giving out about the organisers comments on her twitter page.
Also mentions the average speeds for the events...
2015 - 35.5
2016 - 35.1
2017 - 34.4
and then she tweets that the "average speed the womens peloton decide to race at is irrelevant and doesnt need to be commented on" ?

The distances for the Elite womens races
2017 - 97km in 2hr 54mins.
2016 - 95km in 2hr 41mins.

1bryan

greenspurs wrote: »

Lydia Boylan giving out about the organisers comments on her twitter page.
Also mentions the average speeds for the events...
2015 - 35.5
2016 - 35.1
2017 - 34.4
and then she tweets that the "average speed the womens peloton decide to race at is irrelevant and doesnt need to be commented on" ?

The distances for the Elite womens races
2017 - 97km in 2hr 54mins.
2016 - 95km in 2hr 41mins.

ever heard of irony?

1bryan

perrier wrote: »

As you appear to be arguing with yourself over breakfast, would someone from the organisation please come on here and apologise as apparently it's "due". For the sake of the children

on here? No way, the apology needs to be more public than on here.

greenspurs

1bryan wrote: »

ever heard of irony?

I have..... :rolleyes: (thats sarcasm :pac: )

Are you hinting that she is being ironic? Please point it out ....

fondriest

1bryan wrote: »

on here? No way, the apology needs to be more public than on here.

Really and truly you have no idea of the time constraints placed upon us on the day due to other thing going on outside the event , I'm not going into the detail because basically we shouldn't have to justify ourselves to you . You're not armed with the information to make a fully informed comment which isn't your fault as you weren't involved in the planning process yet it doesn't seem to bother you when you slam us . I have invited people on other social media to PM me an I will inform them of the fact they need . I have yet to be taken up on my offer because I think people prefer not to know the details . I'll not wast any more of my time on relying to you comments . All you really need to know is that I have not received one complaint from a rider in the ladies race . Good luck and enjoy being outraged by something else tomorrow .

spyderski

This thread, and some of the comments on forums such as StickyBottle are just incredible. A load of people, the vast majority of whom weren't there, are not involved in race organisation, and in many instances have never raced, queuing up to bitch and moan about an event that went off very well except for having the ladies race pulled in.

To those people: Can we hear your suggestions as to how the event should have been organised better to avoid what happened? To save you time here's the answers to a couple of common misguided suggestions I've seen bandied about the past 48 hours:

1. Have the race on the Saturday This was done previously, but there was a perception that this somehow degraded the womens race, so it was decided to give them the same audience as the elite men.

2. Give the Women a bigger handicap/time gap The lap was 19km long, they had a 17km Handicap. Not physically possible to give them any more (btw before you say "they could have been given the full 19km" - that would have just meant they were caught a couple of km nearer the finish)

3. The lap was too short Cycling Ireland mandated a lap no longer than 20km. I presume this was to make the race spectator friendly, but whatever the reason the organisers were obliged to adhere to CI requirements.

4. Pull in the men's race UCI rules stipulate that when a race is being caught by a following race, the slower race must be pulled in, and restarted with the same time gaps. This happens regularly, when dawdling A3's are caught by A4's or whatever. It also happens if theres a bad accident requiring ambulances to be moved, or in case of road blockages such as trains crossing etc. This happens at ALL levels of the sport, right up to the Tour de France. It was even more innocuous in this case, as there were no gaps in the ladies race, other than a couple of riders who had been dropped.

5. Let the women's race off after the mens race This would have guaranteed the races coming together, as the disparity in race speeds was so great.

6. Start the women's race early in the morning This would probably lead to further accusations of degrading the women's race, but in any event is simply not practical. Organisers experience enough push-back from locals as it is, and closing access to roads all day is simply not practical. Also, its hard enough to get marshalls for these events, without asking them to stand on the road from 6.30 am until 4/5 pm to allow races to be held separately.

If anyone has any workable solutions, given the prevailing event requirements, I'm sure everyone involved would appreciate them, in order to avoid the same issue happening again. If you don't have a workable solution, and are just feeling a bit "outraged" by it all, please go away.

I had nothing to do with organising the Champs, but know all those involved, who have decades of experience, and have the expertise to organise this event to an extremely professional level. The nature of road racing means this kind of thing happens from time to time, and it's certainly unfortunate. I'm sure the last thing the organisers want is to be getting flak and abuse online when they've given up so much of their own time voluntarily to organise the event.

I can't see too many clubs putting their hands up to host the champs next year. It's already a largely thankless event, and people don't need the added hassle of dealing with internet trolls.

Lusk_Doyle

Re responding to internet trolls. It's not necessary for those involved to get into such debate about what went down. You put on the event, had successes and learned from the failures. Time now to enjoy your achievement and pass on knowledge to whichever club takes up the mantle for next year. No point in wasting more time, energy and sanity on trying to explain anything to those who are unhappy. You can't win.

fat bloke

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Re responding to internet trolls. It's not necessary for those involved to get into such debate about what went down. You put on the event, had successes and learned from the failures. Time now to enjoy your achievement and pass on knowledge to whichever club takes up the mantle for next year. No point in wasting more time, energy and sanity on trying to explain anything to those who are unhappy. You can't win.

Absolutely. I was going to post similarly - this, and the seemingly lone outraged crusader, has been given far too much attention and thread-time already in my opinion. It's clear who has made their minds up on what and further keyboard banging doesn't look like it's going to change anyone's minds. :rolleyes:

brocbrocach

spyderski wrote: »

an event that went off very well except for having the ladies race pulled in.

:pac:

The headlines I've seen in non-cycling media are all about this incident, whoevers fault it may be. If you're happy that the national championship repels outsiders rather than draws them into the sport, great keep things as they are.
I don't think anyone here is lining up to kick the club, or the volunteers.

RacoonQueen

The headlines are trying to be sensationalist and turn it into a sexist decision.
Have seen lots of women who know nothing about / have no interest in cycling being outraged by the events.

Would be more helpful to the sport if the journalists explained it better and if the organisers accepted some responsibility for what happened rather than blaming the women for racing too slowly.

mathie

Why was Mullen talking about the "negativity" in the race?
Was he referring to the breaks being chased down?
What exactly did he expect the pack to do?
He's a pro racing against amateurs.
Did he expect them all to be as strong as him?

1bryan

fat bloke wrote: »

Absolutely. I was going to post similarly - this, and the seemingly lone outraged crusader, has been given far too much attention and thread-time already in my opinion. It's clear who has made their minds up on what and further keyboard banging doesn't look like it's going to change anyone's minds. :rolleyes:

lone? for serious? have you not followed the thread?

either which way, I'm just repeating myself at this point, while the 'other side' has resorted to shouting me down as a troll rather than actually debate the argument.

I'll bow out and leave your little bro's club to it.

perrier

1bryan wrote: »

lone? for serious? have you not followed the thread?

either which way, I'm just repeating myself at this point, while the 'other side' has resorted to shouting me down as a troll rather than actually debate the argument.

I'll bow out and leave your little bro's club to it.

Appreciate that.

Homer1798

1bryan wrote: »

there was ~20 minutes or so between first and last in the men's race when they came around the the women's race.

Ok 1bryan in your effot to discredit what I said, the Women's race was stopped at 12:28:30pm (+/- a few seconds), Ryan Mullens group containing most of the favourites at that time went past at 12:32:05pm, second group @12:37:50pm & most importantaly the LAST group in the Men's Elite Race went past at 12:39:10pm that's roughly 7minutes 5 seconds no where near your bs 20 minutes you want people to believe, the Women's Elite race then resumed @ 12:42:45, 14 minutes 15 seconds after it was stopped..........if anyone still doubts these slightly rough times I suggest you go to Strava Flybys and check for yourself (as a point the last mens group finished 24 minutes behind the winner) ...........maybe 1bryan it's time to "man up" and admit you were wrong, made a mistake?

All My Stars Aligned

1bryan wrote: »

lone? for serious? have you not followed the thread?

either which way, I'm just repeating myself at this point, while the 'other side' has resorted to shouting me down as a troll rather than actually debate the argument.

I'll bow out and leave your little bro's club to it.

@1brian, please don't bow out. Rather then your keyboard warrior posts why not put forward some workable alternatives.

Maybe it's just an Irish thing, sure I'll just complain and let others worry about addressing the problem....

PS. Thanks you to all the guy's that put their time and efforts into what appears to have been a fantastically put together few days.

Derrydingle

If people are not happy they should be getting on to Cycling Ireland for never doing anything to help run or fund the nationals and not the people who worked very hard to put on two great days of racing in Wexford

lyders

Hi there Boards!! Been a while! Ha!

I haven't caught up on all the posts on here but some that I have read are outrageous!!

So here's the facts from someone IN the race! Was it THE most attacking race in the world? No. But there were certainly more than just two attacks in over 90km!! A lot of factors came into play; the circuit, a cagey race, a small field full of individual riders. It was always going to be a super tactical race. After all, winning the race and that jersey is HUGE. I take massive personal offence to the comments that we were "too slow". We raced our race. Whatever the pace, it doesn't matter. We were told before our race by officials "to make sure we raced hard so the men wouldn't catch". Incredible!! And insulting. But this proves they knew it was a likely outcome that the men's race would catch us. Do I think the race officials acted appropriately in stopping our race to allow the men to pass. Yes. It was the right thing to do. Should race organisers learn from this and make sure it never happens again....YES. That is the lesson to be learned here. Not to blame the organisers or the women for going "too slow"...but to make sure both races have the freedom to race as they wish. We deserve it. The jersey deserves it.

Quigs Snr

Its a tough one. Once the start times and circuit were set then the only thing that the officials could do on the day was what they did.

The options for the future are : (a) start the race earlier or move it to a different day.. seems this was not an option for the organisers due to logistics, permission from the relevant local authorities etc... and/or (b) a longer circuit, which again seems like the organisers had their hands tied if its true that CI insisted on it being no longer than 20k.

Seems to me like the Wexford lads put on the best champs they could within the constraints placed on them. I don't blame them.. especially after seeing how the champs nearly didn't happen in 2016. It seems to me like CI need to play more of a role (and certainly be open to discussing a slightly longer circuit).

The newspaper articles are sensationalist - as is the norm these days. The folks who organised this do not deserve it, they broke their balls to produce what was an enjoyable spectacle for the spectators and most of the competitors - a few loose comments aside they do not by any means deserve to be painted as some sort of misogynists because that is not what they are.

Arguably the best rider in our club, pound for pound was in that womens race and she was angry at the finish, but it seemed to be more targeted at a perceived continual lack of respect (not from the Wexford clubs who did a great job with the constraints outlined, but with CI). Some sort of task force needs to be set up at CI to ensure a review of the National Champs for the next few years.

lyders

A few loose comments:

"You can't ask the faster race, who are there to race, to slow down."

"The women were just too slow"

"The women were warned to get going or they were going to be passed"

"The women's race has to piggy back on the men's race"


I'd think you'd be forgiven if you thought there was an air of sexism?? It's these sorts of comments that have me angered anyway. They are not helpful for women's cycling. We don't have the numbers that men's racing has, we need all the support we can get to try build the profile of our race and get more numbers entering the women's nationals. I just feel comments like those above are just completely unnecessary are weren't actually focussing on the issues that arose during the champs on Sunday.

brocbrocach

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

@1brian, please don't bow out. Rather then your keyboard warrior posts why not put forward some workable alternatives.

Maybe it's just an Irish thing, sure I'll just complain and let others worry about addressing the problem....

"Keyboard warrior" seems to be bandied about a lot on this subject - it's a funny thing to say on a discussion board.
The national championship race was reduced to a 10km gallop and people are ganged up on and criticised for daring to have an issue with that? Closing of the ranks and loyalty are fine but nothing at all in this whole aftermath reflects well on the sport.

Quigs Snr

lyders wrote: »

A few loose comments:

"You can't ask the faster race, who are there to race, to slow down."

"The women were just too slow"

"The women were warned to get going or they were going to be passed"

"The women's race has to piggy back on the men's race"


I'd think you'd be forgiven if you thought there was an air of sexism?? It's these sorts of comments that have me angered anyway. They are not helpful for women's cycling. We don't have the numbers that men's racing has, we need all the support we can get to try build the profile of our race and get more numbers entering the women's nationals. I just feel comments like those above are just completely unnecessary are weren't actually focussing on the issues that arose during the champs on Sunday.

I pushed for a ladies section in the club that I founded and we have one exceptional talent - who I consider our most successful rider - of any gender in the past while, we also have a few who do it for fun, which is great and another few who could have made the grade, I even harboured grand delusions of a Ras Na Mban team in the next couple of years for a while there, but they didn't hang around for various reasons, so I understand how tough it is to build the numbers.

The tone and language of those comments is certainly not what you would hope for. Although these are average joes who are not media trained. And the response has largely been targeted against those rather than what actually went on I reckon. Which is a shame for the many dozens of others who gave their time up to make the event happen.

What do you reckon CI should do next year Lydia ? No-one on here would be more qualified to have their say.

lyders

Quigs Snr wrote: »

What do you reckon CI should do next year Lydia ? No-one on here would be more qualified to have their say.

I could say what I would like to happen! I'm obviously very lucky that most, if not all, races I do nowadays are on closed roads. But I have no idea what is feasible in terms of road closures, costs, volunteers etc in Ireland. At the very least they need to insure that there is no potential for overlaps of the races. If this means moving the women's race back to Saturday or running it before the men's race on the Sunday then so be it. The elite races have to take priority. Thankfully I don't recall any major instances with traffic during our race but what I saw during the masters races on Saturday was crazy. Rolling road closures need to be secured.

Congrats on the win in the end Lydia , there's always a cheer in our house when you get mentioned in Eurosports coverage of the UK series.