National Championship 2017

lyders

greenspurs wrote: »

But if they had to pull in the Vets (and im sure they have done in other races) they would have ! And im sure people would be saying that!
How can there be an issue?
Are yee saying that anyone that (dared to) mention that the women were 'going too slow' is being sexist?
Or is it that we mentioned they were going slow?
Or is it that they werent going slow at all??
As the Irish Champion has said herself, there was no problem with them being pulled over as it was the right thing to do....
So it must be the use of the words "Women" and "slow" in the same sentence.....
I can assure , im not sexist, and i follow Womens cycling, and have helped in the Ras naMban, and i have given my opinion about the Elite races last Sunday.
The facts back up peoples opinions, and there is fault on both sides, but also factors that couldnt be helped contributed to the unfortunate incident. Lessons learned

The issue is that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE should ever have to be pulled over for another race to pass. Every effort should be made now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agreed that given the circumstances that arose it was right decision to pull us over. Not that I was happy that those circumstances did arise. THERE IS NO FAULT WHAT SO EVER THAT CAN BE PUT ON THE WOMEN'S PELOTON.

greenspurs

lyders wrote: »

The issue is that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE should ever have to be pulled over for another race to pass. Every effort should be made now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agreed that given the circumstances that arose it was right decision to pull us over. Not that I was happy that those circumstances did arise. THERE IS NO FAULT WHAT SO EVER THAT CAN BE PUT ON THE WOMEN'S PELOTON.

I agree that no National Championship should be pulled over....
And i think Cycling Ireland (remember them) are getting off scot free in this.
Does anyone know why they asked/insist that the circuit is no longer than 20km ?
Surely that was the biggest factor?

fat bloke

1bryan wrote: »

I'm just repeating myself at this point
I'll bow out and leave your little bro's club to it.

1bryan wrote: »

the silence from the mob is utterly deafening now.

I think people have said their various pieces, clearly and concisely. Do you want us all to go around again?

Lusk_Doyle

lyders wrote: »

The issue is that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE should ever have to be pulled over for another race to pass. Every effort should be made now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agreed that given the circumstances that arose it was right decision to pull us over. Not that I was happy that those circumstances did arise. THERE IS NO FAULT WHAT SO EVER THAT CAN BE PUT ON THE WOMEN'S PELOTON.

Now Lydia, there's no need to shout. WE CAN ALL READ YOU!

Lusk_Doyle

The ladies didn't ride hard enough and we're a bunch of idiots.

Weepsie wrote: »

That's the most damning of the comments to be honest, and that's from an organiser.

I think that this has been read incorrectly. Not the ladies were a bunch of idiots but rather a self deprecating comment made sarcastically about the organisers (we are / we're) by an organiser.

lyders

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Now Lydia, there's no need to shout. WE CAN ALL READ YOU!

Hey...I'm National Champion and I can SHOUT if I want to!! :D;)

Lusk_Doyle

lyders wrote: »

Hey...I'm National Champion and I can SHOUT if I want to!! :D;)

Give us a tow around tonight in the Swords league then will ya!

lyders

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Give us a tow around tonight in the Swords league then will ya!

Haha!! A white jersey in this rain?! Nahhhhhh

CramCycle

RacoonQueen wrote: »

They're all the comments I had an issue with, the comments being the issue for me rather than the action of pulling over the women's race. Felt it was just the organisers trying to rally the blame for what happened to the women racing. I'd like to think they'd have said the same thing if it had been a vets race they needed to pull over...

"The old fellas were just too slow"

Comments like that made no sense, the womens race was just alot more tactical from my understanding and having heard a few of the riders last night, certainly not taking it easy.

The organisers were screwed from the start if any group was hugely different in times because of the length of the laps, and it will be something CI will have to change from next year or there is not a hope of anyone taking it up.

I am glad Lyders said about maybe running it on a different day because the impression I got (from here) is that the organisers were aiming to give both rides as close to equal status as possible, and were overly worried they would be hauled over the coals if they didn't run it the same day. Like I said before, if the Mens took off first, followed by the Womens, and they were caught, the assumption is that they would have been neutralised as well. I think some people think something different would have happened, I really don't think it would have.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing, the best solution I could think of, based on complaints from some of the riders about getting cold/cramping from standing up, would have maybe tried a rolling neutralisation. Tough to pull off but since the bunch was together, it would have been fair, no one could have gained a distinct advantage and they could have taken off after the second bunch.

lyders wrote: »

The issue is that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE should ever have to be pulled over for another race to pass. Every effort should be made now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agreed that given the circumstances that arose it was right decision to pull us over. Not that I was happy that those circumstances did arise. THERE IS NO FAULT WHAT SO EVER THAT CAN BE PUT ON THE WOMEN'S PELOTON.

100% agree, and I am shocked that anyone would say it was the pelotons fault, sometimes it is tactical with riders on each others wheels waiting for the right moment, other times its all out hell with no tactics at all. There is no way to know until the race kicks off. I really hope that they really look at reassessing the rules and regs for this next year or else no club will touch it.

greenspurs wrote: »

I agree that no National Championship should be pulled over....
And i think Cycling Ireland (remember them) are getting off scot free in this.
Does anyone know why they asked/insist that the circuit is no longer than 20km ?
Surely that was the biggest factor?

And there it is, if the women had left behind the peloton, the same thing based on the numbers probably would have happened. The lap length didn't leave much in the way of lee way in regards speed, too very different style of races took off and once they were on the same course at the same time, it was unlikely they would have stayed apart.

Fender76

I was standing on the hill where the ladies were told to pull in and yes, i was very surprised but agree that it was the only thing to do.. although I would have let them get over the hill instead of stopping halfway up..!

I was wondering, if there had been a break in the ladies race at this point, say, Lydia was 30 seconds up the road, how would the organisers have catered for that?

For the record, I thought it was an excellent couple of days racing and extremely well organised/received. I know the weather conditions were different in Kilcullen last year but I actually thought it was a better race this year and tgat Wexford did an amazing job.

 

lyders

Fender76 wrote: »

I was wondering, if there had been a break in the ladies race at this point, say, Lydia was 30 seconds up the road, how would the organisers have catered for that?


 

We are very lucky that that wasn't the case. In theory the race would be restarted with the same time gaps. But this would be very hard to actually achieve and obviously having 15 min to recover would have a massive impact on the lead rider(s) and the chasing pack. This is why it is hugely important that the races cannot come together in future.

greenspurs

lyders wrote: »

We are very lucky that that wasn't the case. In theory the race would be restarted with the same time gaps. But this would be very hard to actually achieve and obviously having 15 min to recover would have a massive impact on the lead rider(s) and the chasing pack. This is why it is hugely important that the races cannot come together in future.

I havent seen , or heard, anything from Cycling Ireland about the Championships..... Have i missed it, or have they not said anything?

I hope the incident wouldnt put off any of our Elite riders , male or female , from riding the Championships.
It is always great to see the Irish champions jersey in the pro peletons, or at home here.

1bryan

greenspurs wrote: »

I havent seen , or heard, anything from Cycling Ireland about the Championships..... Have i missed it, or have they not said anything?

it's weak, but

http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/cycling-ireland-to-review-format-of-national-championships/

greenspurs

So they will "review the details and logistics" ...
Does that mean the length of the lap? I cant understand why they restrict it to 20km loops??
Surely that was the major contributing factor on Sunday ? ....

And maybe they could review their imput into the National Championships also!

Fender76

By the way, anyone know what happened Sam Bennett?

wexandproud

1bryan wrote: »

thank you.

the silence from the mob is utterly deafening now.

i had nothing new to ad so im just not bothered repeating the same old stuff like some people , and i was not part of the group who ran the event i just felt they did a good job and received a lot of unfair flak

Lusk_Doyle

Fender76 wrote: »

By the way, anyone know what happened Sam Bennett?

He got tired by all the work he had to do because of the "negative racing" but chose not to moan about it.

Brian?

nee wrote: »

The nationals are not a club race, they're the pinnacle of the season.

Stopping the race on the last lap is unjustifiable, that's not to undermine the organising club or the time and effort of the volunteers that went into organising it.

It's not right, or fair, or justified. The race went how it went, it went at the same speed as last year so it can't have been a surprise. It didn't work, lessons can be learned.

It just goes to show the esteem women's cycling is held in. It's not encouraging.
It's also embarrassing for the sport.

It's been picked up outside of here too:
https://totalwomenscycling.com/race-news/womens-elite-peloton-forced-pull-mens-race-pass#SfvkmxX92cuciRV1.97


ETA also agree that CI should step in to help organising clubs with the event. Is a huge ask for any club, and help should be given.

That's complete nonsense.

The mistake the organisers made was scheduling the two races too close together, not stopping the women's race, but even that's debatable. The women's race averaged 34km/h. The organisers didn't think it would be anywhere near that slow.

Once the men's race looked like catching the women's, stopping the women's was the only logical thing to do. Especially as they were one large group and he men's race was all over the road.

If anything the women were getting too much "esteem". They were expected to ride faster.

FYI, it wasn't an easy decision for the organisers and I know for a fact they are quite upset about the fall out.

Brian?

CramCycle wrote: »

Comments like that made no sense, the womens race was just alot more tactical from my understanding and having heard a few of the riders last night, certainly not taking it easy.

The organisers were screwed from the start if any group was hugely different in times because of the length of the laps, and it will be something CI will have to change from next year or there is not a hope of anyone taking it up.

I am glad Lyders said about maybe running it on a different day because the impression I got (from here) is that the organisers were aiming to give both rides as close to equal status as possible, and were overly worried they would be hauled over the coals if they didn't run it the same day. Like I said before, if the Mens took off first, followed by the Womens, and they were caught, the assumption is that they would have been neutralised as well. I think some people think something different would have happened, I really don't think it would have.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing, the best solution I could think of, based on complaints from some of the riders about getting cold/cramping from standing up, would have maybe tried a rolling neutralisation. Tough to pull off but since the bunch was together, it would have been fair, no one could have gained a distinct advantage and they could have taken off after the second bunch.

100% agree, and I am shocked that anyone would say it was the pelotons fault, sometimes it is tactical with riders on each others wheels waiting for the right moment, other times its all out hell with no tactics at all. There is no way to know until the race kicks off. I really hope that they really look at reassessing the rules and regs for this next year or else no club will touch it.

And there it is, if the women had left behind the peloton, the same thing based on the numbers probably would have happened. The lap length didn't leave much in the way of lee way in regards speed, too very different style of races took off and once they were on the same course at the same time, it was unlikely they would have stayed apart.

There is no "fault" IMO. The organisers did what they had to when the situation came up. I don't blame the women's race for riding the speed they did, sometimes **** just happens.

I don't see there was any other option than to stop the women's race. Without reading back the whole thread, what are people suggesting should have happened??

Eamonnator

If they started the men's race just before the women completed their 2nd lap, would that help the situation?

fondriest

Eamonnator wrote: »

If they started the men's race just before the women completed their 2nd lap, would that help the situation?

That's what did happen. Unfortunately didn't work.

Eamonnator

fondriest wrote: »

That's what did happen. Unfortunately didn't work.

Oh, I thought they started it when the women had almost completed their 1st lap

fondriest

Eamonnator wrote: »

Oh, I thought they started it when the women had almost completed their 1st lap

No their second lap .

eeeee

Brian? wrote: »

That's complete nonsense.

The mistake the organisers made was scheduling the two races too close together, not stopping the women's race, but even that's debatable. The women's race averaged 34km/h. The organisers didn't think it would be anywhere near that slow.

Stopping the race was the only thing that could have been done once it happened, bar a rolling neutralisation, but with only 10k to go that isn't exactly realistic either. But it is an unacceptable eventuality at a national championship, no matter what excuses you want to make. The ladies race was the same speed as the year before, it wasn't a completely unknown eventuality.

It does appear to be a scheduling problem.

It is really disappointing that there has been such a negative and defensive reaction to any criticism of what happened, with the organisers pretty much blaming the women and going on the defensive at all criticism. It shouldn't have happened, it wasn't fair that it happened on the last 10k of a national championships, no matter how negative the race was. The race should be allowed to run its natural course at a national championships, whatever that may be. A 'shut up and deal with it' response is to deny the women this, and really not a great reaction to what happened or a good way to deal with it. It reinforces the second class citizen feeling tbh.

Brian? wrote: »

Once the men's race looked like catching the women's, stopping the women's was the only logical thing to do. Especially as they were one large group and he men's race was all over the road.

If anything the women were getting too much "esteem". They were expected to ride faster.

FYI, it wasn't an easy decision for the organisers and I know for a fact they are quite upset about the fall out.

Of course they are upset, it's a horrible thing to happen to them too, after everything they put into it. Running a national championships is a huge, massive undertaking, and all on a volunteer basis which is incredible. I believe they did that absolute best they could, no one is disputing the work, time, sweat and effort put into it. The sustainability of putting all of that on one or two clubs a year really needs to be looked at, it's huge responsibility and work on a relatively small bunch of people.
CI have to step up now, no excuses.

rizzodun

Read this on the Cycling Ireland page on facebook today, and was amazed that something like this could happen.

I plan on reading the full thread, but just home from travelling from outside the country and have a burning question.

Why isn't the womens race ran on a different day to the mens?

Surely it should be treated with as much importance as the mens, they deserve that for a national champs, right?

I understand they have to manage a course etc, etc, but we can close roads for rallies many times a year for whole weekends, I don't see why a 20km course cannot be managed with some diversions?


Again, ignorant to the way it works on the road, and intend to read the thread, but would help bring me up to speed please.

cython

rizzodun wrote: »

Read this on the Cycling Ireland page on facebook today, and was amazed that something like this could happen.

I plan on reading the full thread, but just home from travelling from outside the country and have a burning question.

Why isn't the womens race ran on a different day to the mens?

Surely it should be treated with as much importance as the mens, they deserve that for a national champs, right?

I understand they have to manage a course etc, etc, but we can close roads for rallies many times a year for whole weekends, I don't see why a 20km course cannot be managed with some diversions?


Again, ignorant to the way it works on the road, and intend to read the thread, but would help bring me up to speed please.

I acknowledge that you haven't read the whole thread, but it has been said several times on this thread that the decision to put the races on the same day was precisely to afford them the same status and importance, by basically putting them in front of the same crowd, etc. In hindsight this backfired, but it was well-intentioned and I don't think anyone doubts that on here.

As for the (presumably you are suggesting closed) 20km course with diversions, perhaps that could be achieved, but unfortunately Nationals and rallies in Ireland are a stark contrast to each other in terms of external interest, and thus the influence on the local economy; ultimately money talks, and rallies bring in a lot of money to the locality, cycling nationals less so, and this influences people's tolerance for disruption. Additionally, it would still have been difficult to achieve this on the course in question this ear even at that, as it ran through the centre of the town including along the front of the bus and train station, never mind anywhere else.

Brian?

nee wrote: »

Stopping the race was the only thing that could have been done once it happened, bar a rolling neutralisation, but with only 10k to go that isn't exactly realistic either. But it is an unacceptable eventuality at a national championship, no matter what excuses you want to make. The ladies race was the same speed as the year before, it wasn't a completely unknown eventuality.

It does appear to be a scheduling problem.

It is really disappointing that there has been such a negative and defensive reaction to any criticism of what happened, with the organisers pretty much blaming the women and going on the defensive at all criticism. It shouldn't have happened, it wasn't fair that it happened on the last 10k of a national championships, no matter how negative the race was. The race should be allowed to run its natural course at a national championships, whatever that may be. A 'shut up and deal with it' response is to deny the women this, and really not a great reaction to what happened or a good way to deal with it. It reinforces the second class citizen feeling tbh.

Measures need to be taken in future so it won't happen again. However, it wasn't done lightly and the fact they were women is pretty irrelevant here. A faster moving race almost caught a slower one. Are the organisers blaming the women? I don't think they are, but if they are then they're wrong.

If they had have caught them it would have been chaos. The "natural course" of the race went out the window no matter what.

I just don't see why the gender of one group is relevant. It had nothing to do with the decision. Do you feel it had?

Of course they are upset, it's a horrible thing to happen to them too, after everything they put into it. Running a national championships is a huge, massive undertaking, and all on a volunteer basis which is incredible. I believe they did that absolute best they could, no one is disputing the work, time, sweat and effort put into it. The sustainability of putting all of that on one or two clubs a year really needs to be looked at, it's huge responsibility and work on a relatively small bunch of people.
CI have to step up now, no excuses.

I disagree. The nationals run fine nearly every year. Leave them alone

rizzodun

cython wrote: »

I acknowledge that you haven't read the whole thread, but it has been said several times on this thread that the decision to put the races on the same day was precisely to afford them the same status and importance, by basically putting them in front of the same crowd, etc. In hindsight this backfired, but it was well-intentioned and I don't think anyone doubts that on here.

As for the (presumably you are suggesting closed) 20km course with diversions, perhaps that could be achieved, but unfortunately Nationals and rallies in Ireland are a stark contrast to each other in terms of external interest, and thus the influence on the local economy; ultimately money talks, and rallies bring in a lot of money to the locality, cycling nationals less so, and this influences people's tolerance for disruption. Additionally, it would still have been difficult to achieve this on the course in question this ear even at that, as it ran through the centre of the town including along the front of the bus and train station, never mind anywhere else.

Thanks Cython,

As I said, I'm ignorant to the situation so trying to understand it.

I agree it backfired, and while I know pretty well the difference in rallying and cycling, particularly as I've marshalled many rallies in the past and see the crowds it attracts, I'm just throwing questions out there, perhaps it could be said that the nationals/competitive cycling in general are not promoted enough from a spectator aspect in Ireland?

I've heard it said before that everything leads to the Ras and then that's it for the year.

Maybe if courses were planned with a spectator in mind and the event promoted to that effect it would raise the profile enough to have the races separated / spaced enough to prevent a repeat?

Regardless, I'm sure lessons will be learned, but from seeing the CI statement on it, to me it seems they're pretty much not admitting to anything to do with what happened.

Time to go read the full thread, thanks again.

cython

rizzodun wrote: »

Thanks Cython,

As I said, I'm ignorant to the situation so trying to understand it.

I agree it backfired, and while I know pretty well the difference in rallying and cycling, particularly as I've marshalled many rallies in the past and see the crowds it attracts, I'm just throwing questions out there, perhaps it could be said that the nationals/competitive cycling in general are not promoted enough from a spectator aspect in Ireland?

I've heard it said before that everything leads to the Ras and then that's it for the year.

Maybe if courses were planned with a spectator in mind and the event promoted to that effect it would raise the profile enough to have the races separated / spaced enough to have a repeat?

Regardless, I'm sure lessons will be learned, but from seeing the CI statement on it, to me it seems they're pretty much not admitting to anything to do with what happened.

Time to go read the full thread, thanks again.

Funny that you should mention making the course spectator friendly, as by all accounts CI would not allow a route longer than 20km for the lap, and the most common hypothesis on here is that this was precisely with keeping spectators' attention in mind, by means of ensuring there would be some action/competitors passing reasonably frequently. As I say, from what I've gleaned this is a hypothesis rather than a confirmed justification from CI (though by all accounts the lap length was a confirmed hard limit), but it makes as much sense as any other potential explanation at this point in time.

1bryan

rizzodun wrote: »

Why isn't the womens race ran on a different day to the mens?

A better question would be; what would the women themselves prefer? A race on it's own, on a different day, or to ride the course on the same day as the elite men's race (with the crowds, etc)? It should be more than possible to facilitate both scenarios.

The last time they were on different days (and I'm open to correction on this), was Multyfarnham a few years ago. On the saturday there was, tragically, a fatal traffic accident on the course on the morning the race was due to take place. All racing, understandably, was cancelled that day and the races were run off later in the summer. I'm not suggesting this was a factor in deciding to put them on the same day in subsequent years but it is nice when all our national championship races can be disputed over a single weekend.