National Championship 2017

Quigs Snr · 28-06-2017 12:38am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Congrats on the win in the end Lydia , there's always a cheer in our house when you get mentioned in Eurosports coverage of the UK series.

Yep. Funny enough the reason I was there when they were stopped is because we were leaving the opposite direction around the course on the bikes to try make the finish of the ladies race and we got stopped too !

1bryan · 28-06-2017 8:16am

brocbrocach wrote: »

"Keyboard warrior" seems to be bandied about a lot on this subject - it's a funny thing to say on a discussion board.
The national championship race was reduced to a 10km gallop and people are ganged up on and criticised for daring to have an issue with that? Closing of the ranks and loyalty are fine but nothing at all in this whole aftermath reflects well on the sport.

thank you.

the silence from the mob is utterly deafening now.

RacoonQueen · 28-06-2017 8:43am

lyders wrote: »

A few loose comments:

"You can't ask the faster race, who are there to race, to slow down."

"The women were just too slow"

"The women were warned to get going or they were going to be passed"

"The women's race has to piggy back on the men's race"

I'd think you'd be forgiven if you thought there was an air of sexism?? It's these sorts of comments that have me angered anyway. They are not helpful for women's cycling. We don't have the numbers that men's racing has, we need all the support we can get to try build the profile of our race and get more numbers entering the women's nationals. I just feel comments like those above are just completely unnecessary are weren't actually focussing on the issues that arose during the champs on Sunday.

They're all the comments I had an issue with, the comments being the issue for me rather than the action of pulling over the women's race. Felt it was just the organisers trying to rally the blame for what happened to the women racing. I'd like to think they'd have said the same thing if it had been a vets race they needed to pull over...

"The old fellas were just too slow"

greenspurs · 28-06-2017 9:07am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

They're all the comments I had an issue with, the comments being the issue for me rather than the action of pulling over the women's race. Felt it was just the organisers trying to rally the blame for what happened to the women racing. I'd like to think they'd have said the same thing if it had been a vets race they needed to pull over...

"The old fellas were just too slow"

But if they had to pull in the Vets (and im sure they have done in other races) they would have ! And im sure people would be saying that!
How can there be an issue?
Are yee saying that anyone that (dared to) mention that the women were 'going too slow' is being sexist?
Or is it that we mentioned they were going slow?
Or is it that they werent going slow at all??
As the Irish Champion has said herself, there was no problem with them being pulled over as it was the right thing to do....
So it must be the use of the words "Women" and "slow" in the same sentence.....
I can assure , im not sexist, and i follow Womens cycling, and have helped in the Ras naMban, and i have given my opinion about the Elite races last Sunday.
The facts back up peoples opinions, and there is fault on both sides, but also factors that couldnt be helped contributed to the unfortunate incident. Lessons learned

Weepsie · 28-06-2017 9:21am

The ladies didn't ride hard enough and we're a bunch of idiots.

That's the most damning of the comments to be honest, and that's from an organiser.

Things can go wrong with all the best planning in the world, but putting it all on the racers is just wrong and not willing to accept any criticism and put the hands up and say "yeah, we probably should have approached it differently".

That said, it could've gone off without any hitches and someone somewhere would still find a fault.

Cycling Ireland really need to start getting their hands dirty for the National Championships.

lyders · 28-06-2017 9:23am

greenspurs wrote: »

But if they had to pull in the Vets (and im sure they have done in other races) they would have ! And im sure people would be saying that!
How can there be an issue?
Are yee saying that anyone that (dared to) mention that the women were 'going too slow' is being sexist?
Or is it that we mentioned they were going slow?
Or is it that they werent going slow at all??
As the Irish Champion has said herself, there was no problem with them being pulled over as it was the right thing to do....
So it must be the use of the words "Women" and "slow" in the same sentence.....
I can assure , im not sexist, and i follow Womens cycling, and have helped in the Ras naMban, and i have given my opinion about the Elite races last Sunday.
The facts back up peoples opinions, and there is fault on both sides, but also factors that couldnt be helped contributed to the unfortunate incident. Lessons learned

The issue is that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE should ever have to be pulled over for another race to pass. Every effort should be made now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agreed that given the circumstances that arose it was right decision to pull us over. Not that I was happy that those circumstances did arise. THERE IS NO FAULT WHAT SO EVER THAT CAN BE PUT ON THE WOMEN'S PELOTON.

greenspurs · 28-06-2017 9:30am

lyders wrote: »

The issue is that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE should ever have to be pulled over for another race to pass. Every effort should be made now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agreed that given the circumstances that arose it was right decision to pull us over. Not that I was happy that those circumstances did arise. THERE IS NO FAULT WHAT SO EVER THAT CAN BE PUT ON THE WOMEN'S PELOTON.

I agree that no National Championship should be pulled over....
And i think Cycling Ireland (remember them) are getting off scot free in this.
Does anyone know why they asked/insist that the circuit is no longer than 20km ?
Surely that was the biggest factor?

fat bloke · 28-06-2017 9:48am

1bryan wrote: »

I'm just repeating myself at this point
I'll bow out and leave your little bro's club to it.

1bryan wrote: »

the silence from the mob is utterly deafening now.

I think people have said their various pieces, clearly and concisely. Do you want us all to go around again?

Lusk_Doyle · 28-06-2017 10:42am

lyders wrote: »

The issue is that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE should ever have to be pulled over for another race to pass. Every effort should be made now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agreed that given the circumstances that arose it was right decision to pull us over. Not that I was happy that those circumstances did arise. THERE IS NO FAULT WHAT SO EVER THAT CAN BE PUT ON THE WOMEN'S PELOTON.

Now Lydia, there's no need to shout. WE CAN ALL READ YOU!

Lusk_Doyle · 28-06-2017 10:45am

The ladies didn't ride hard enough and we're a bunch of idiots.

Weepsie wrote: »

That's the most damning of the comments to be honest, and that's from an organiser.

I think that this has been read incorrectly. Not the ladies were a bunch of idiots but rather a self deprecating comment made sarcastically about the organisers (we are / we're) by an organiser.

lyders · 28-06-2017 10:52am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Now Lydia, there's no need to shout. WE CAN ALL READ YOU!

Hey...I'm National Champion and I can SHOUT if I want to!!

:D;)

Lusk_Doyle · 28-06-2017 10:58am

lyders wrote: »

Hey...I'm National Champion and I can SHOUT if I want to!! :D;)

Give us a tow around tonight in the Swords league then will ya!

lyders · 28-06-2017 11:01am

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Give us a tow around tonight in the Swords league then will ya!

Haha!! A white jersey in this rain?! Nahhhhhh

CramCycle · 28-06-2017 11:13am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

They're all the comments I had an issue with, the comments being the issue for me rather than the action of pulling over the women's race. Felt it was just the organisers trying to rally the blame for what happened to the women racing. I'd like to think they'd have said the same thing if it had been a vets race they needed to pull over...

"The old fellas were just too slow"

Comments like that made no sense, the womens race was just alot more tactical from my understanding and having heard a few of the riders last night, certainly not taking it easy.

The organisers were screwed from the start if any group was hugely different in times because of the length of the laps, and it will be something CI will have to change from next year or there is not a hope of anyone taking it up.

I am glad Lyders said about maybe running it on a different day because the impression I got (from here) is that the organisers were aiming to give both rides as close to equal status as possible, and were overly worried they would be hauled over the coals if they didn't run it the same day. Like I said before, if the Mens took off first, followed by the Womens, and they were caught, the assumption is that they would have been neutralised as well. I think some people think something different would have happened, I really don't think it would have.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing, the best solution I could think of, based on complaints from some of the riders about getting cold/cramping from standing up, would have maybe tried a rolling neutralisation. Tough to pull off but since the bunch was together, it would have been fair, no one could have gained a distinct advantage and they could have taken off after the second bunch.

lyders wrote: »

The issue is that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE should ever have to be pulled over for another race to pass. Every effort should be made now to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agreed that given the circumstances that arose it was right decision to pull us over. Not that I was happy that those circumstances did arise. THERE IS NO FAULT WHAT SO EVER THAT CAN BE PUT ON THE WOMEN'S PELOTON.

100% agree, and I am shocked that anyone would say it was the pelotons fault, sometimes it is tactical with riders on each others wheels waiting for the right moment, other times its all out hell with no tactics at all. There is no way to know until the race kicks off. I really hope that they really look at reassessing the rules and regs for this next year or else no club will touch it.

greenspurs wrote: »

I agree that no National Championship should be pulled over....
And i think Cycling Ireland (remember them) are getting off scot free in this.
Does anyone know why they asked/insist that the circuit is no longer than 20km ?
Surely that was the biggest factor?

And there it is, if the women had left behind the peloton, the same thing based on the numbers probably would have happened. The lap length didn't leave much in the way of lee way in regards speed, too very different style of races took off and once they were on the same course at the same time, it was unlikely they would have stayed apart.

Fender76 · 28-06-2017 11:45am

I was standing on the hill where the ladies were told to pull in and yes, i was very surprised but agree that it was the only thing to do.. although I would have let them get over the hill instead of stopping halfway up..!

I was wondering, if there had been a break in the ladies race at this point, say, Lydia was 30 seconds up the road, how would the organisers have catered for that?

For the record, I thought it was an excellent couple of days racing and extremely well organised/received. I know the weather conditions were different in Kilcullen last year but I actually thought it was a better race this year and tgat Wexford did an amazing job.

lyders · 28-06-2017 12:19pm

Fender76 wrote: »

I was wondering, if there had been a break in the ladies race at this point, say, Lydia was 30 seconds up the road, how would the organisers have catered for that?

We are very lucky that that wasn't the case. In theory the race would be restarted with the same time gaps. But this would be very hard to actually achieve and obviously having 15 min to recover would have a massive impact on the lead rider(s) and the chasing pack. This is why it is hugely important that the races cannot come together in future.

greenspurs · 28-06-2017 12:26pm

lyders wrote: »

We are very lucky that that wasn't the case. In theory the race would be restarted with the same time gaps. But this would be very hard to actually achieve and obviously having 15 min to recover would have a massive impact on the lead rider(s) and the chasing pack. This is why it is hugely important that the races cannot come together in future.

I havent seen , or heard, anything from Cycling Ireland about the Championships..... Have i missed it, or have they not said anything?

I hope the incident wouldnt put off any of our Elite riders , male or female , from riding the Championships.
It is always great to see the Irish champions jersey in the pro peletons, or at home here.

1bryan · 28-06-2017 12:36pm

greenspurs wrote: »

I havent seen , or heard, anything from Cycling Ireland about the Championships..... Have i missed it, or have they not said anything?

it's weak, but

http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/cycling-ireland-to-review-format-of-national-championships/

greenspurs · 28-06-2017 12:45pm

So they will "review the details and logistics" ...
Does that mean the length of the lap? I cant understand why they restrict it to 20km loops??
Surely that was the major contributing factor on Sunday ? ....

And maybe they could review their imput into the National Championships also!

Fender76 · 28-06-2017 2:22pm

By the way, anyone know what happened Sam Bennett?

wexandproud · 28-06-2017 3:07pm

1bryan wrote: »

thank you.

the silence from the mob is utterly deafening now.

i had nothing new to ad so im just not bothered repeating the same old stuff like some people , and i was not part of the group who ran the event i just felt they did a good job and received a lot of unfair flak

Lusk_Doyle · 28-06-2017 3:08pm

Fender76 wrote: »

By the way, anyone know what happened Sam Bennett?

He got tired by all the work he had to do because of the "negative racing" but chose not to moan about it.

Brian? · 28-06-2017 4:58pm

nee wrote: »

The nationals are not a club race, they're the pinnacle of the season.

Stopping the race on the last lap is unjustifiable, that's not to undermine the organising club or the time and effort of the volunteers that went into organising it.

It's not right, or fair, or justified. The race went how it went, it went at the same speed as last year so it can't have been a surprise. It didn't work, lessons can be learned.

It just goes to show the esteem women's cycling is held in. It's not encouraging.
It's also embarrassing for the sport.

It's been picked up outside of here too:
https://totalwomenscycling.com/race-news/womens-elite-peloton-forced-pull-mens-race-pass#SfvkmxX92cuciRV1.97

ETA also agree that CI should step in to help organising clubs with the event. Is a huge ask for any club, and help should be given.

That's complete nonsense.

The mistake the organisers made was scheduling the two races too close together, not stopping the women's race, but even that's debatable. The women's race averaged 34km/h. The organisers didn't think it would be anywhere near that slow.

Once the men's race looked like catching the women's, stopping the women's was the only logical thing to do. Especially as they were one large group and he men's race was all over the road.

If anything the women were getting too much "esteem". They were expected to ride faster.

FYI, it wasn't an easy decision for the organisers and I know for a fact they are quite upset about the fall out.

Brian? · 28-06-2017 5:03pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Comments like that made no sense, the womens race was just alot more tactical from my understanding and having heard a few of the riders last night, certainly not taking it easy.

The organisers were screwed from the start if any group was hugely different in times because of the length of the laps, and it will be something CI will have to change from next year or there is not a hope of anyone taking it up.

I am glad Lyders said about maybe running it on a different day because the impression I got (from here) is that the organisers were aiming to give both rides as close to equal status as possible, and were overly worried they would be hauled over the coals if they didn't run it the same day. Like I said before, if the Mens took off first, followed by the Womens, and they were caught, the assumption is that they would have been neutralised as well. I think some people think something different would have happened, I really don't think it would have.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing, the best solution I could think of, based on complaints from some of the riders about getting cold/cramping from standing up, would have maybe tried a rolling neutralisation. Tough to pull off but since the bunch was together, it would have been fair, no one could have gained a distinct advantage and they could have taken off after the second bunch.

100% agree, and I am shocked that anyone would say it was the pelotons fault, sometimes it is tactical with riders on each others wheels waiting for the right moment, other times its all out hell with no tactics at all. There is no way to know until the race kicks off. I really hope that they really look at reassessing the rules and regs for this next year or else no club will touch it.

And there it is, if the women had left behind the peloton, the same thing based on the numbers probably would have happened. The lap length didn't leave much in the way of lee way in regards speed, too very different style of races took off and once they were on the same course at the same time, it was unlikely they would have stayed apart.

There is no "fault" IMO. The organisers did what they had to when the situation came up. I don't blame the women's race for riding the speed they did, sometimes **** just happens.

I don't see there was any other option than to stop the women's race. Without reading back the whole thread, what are people suggesting should have happened??

Eamonnator · 28-06-2017 5:11pm

If they started the men's race just before the women completed their 2nd lap, would that help the situation?

fondriest · 28-06-2017 5:28pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

If they started the men's race just before the women completed their 2nd lap, would that help the situation?

That's what did happen. Unfortunately didn't work.

Eamonnator · 28-06-2017 5:34pm

fondriest wrote: »

That's what did happen. Unfortunately didn't work.

Oh, I thought they started it when the women had almost completed their 1st lap

fondriest · 28-06-2017 8:20pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

Oh, I thought they started it when the women had almost completed their 1st lap

No their second lap .

eeeee · 28-06-2017 9:33pm

Brian? wrote: »

That's complete nonsense.

The mistake the organisers made was scheduling the two races too close together, not stopping the women's race, but even that's debatable. The women's race averaged 34km/h. The organisers didn't think it would be anywhere near that slow.

Stopping the race was the only thing that could have been done once it happened, bar a rolling neutralisation, but with only 10k to go that isn't exactly realistic either. But it is an unacceptable eventuality at a national championship, no matter what excuses you want to make. The ladies race was the same speed as the year before, it wasn't a completely unknown eventuality.

It does appear to be a scheduling problem.

It is really disappointing that there has been such a negative and defensive reaction to any criticism of what happened, with the organisers pretty much blaming the women and going on the defensive at all criticism. It shouldn't have happened, it wasn't fair that it happened on the last 10k of a national championships, no matter how negative the race was. The race should be allowed to run its natural course at a national championships, whatever that may be. A 'shut up and deal with it' response is to deny the women this, and really not a great reaction to what happened or a good way to deal with it. It reinforces the second class citizen feeling tbh.

Brian? wrote: »

Once the men's race looked like catching the women's, stopping the women's was the only logical thing to do. Especially as they were one large group and he men's race was all over the road.

If anything the women were getting too much "esteem". They were expected to ride faster.

FYI, it wasn't an easy decision for the organisers and I know for a fact they are quite upset about the fall out.

Of course they are upset, it's a horrible thing to happen to them too, after everything they put into it. Running a national championships is a huge, massive undertaking, and all on a volunteer basis which is incredible. I believe they did that absolute best they could, no one is disputing the work, time, sweat and effort put into it. The sustainability of putting all of that on one or two clubs a year really needs to be looked at, it's huge responsibility and work on a relatively small bunch of people.
CI have to step up now, no excuses.

rizzodun · 28-06-2017 10:29pm

Read this on the Cycling Ireland page on facebook today, and was amazed that something like this could happen.

I plan on reading the full thread, but just home from travelling from outside the country and have a burning question.

Why isn't the womens race ran on a different day to the mens?

Surely it should be treated with as much importance as the mens, they deserve that for a national champs, right?

I understand they have to manage a course etc, etc, but we can close roads for rallies many times a year for whole weekends, I don't see why a 20km course cannot be managed with some diversions?

Again, ignorant to the way it works on the road, and intend to read the thread, but would help bring me up to speed please.