National Championship 2017

cython

rizzodun wrote: »

Read this on the Cycling Ireland page on facebook today, and was amazed that something like this could happen.

I plan on reading the full thread, but just home from travelling from outside the country and have a burning question.

Why isn't the womens race ran on a different day to the mens?

Surely it should be treated with as much importance as the mens, they deserve that for a national champs, right?

I understand they have to manage a course etc, etc, but we can close roads for rallies many times a year for whole weekends, I don't see why a 20km course cannot be managed with some diversions?


Again, ignorant to the way it works on the road, and intend to read the thread, but would help bring me up to speed please.

I acknowledge that you haven't read the whole thread, but it has been said several times on this thread that the decision to put the races on the same day was precisely to afford them the same status and importance, by basically putting them in front of the same crowd, etc. In hindsight this backfired, but it was well-intentioned and I don't think anyone doubts that on here.

As for the (presumably you are suggesting closed) 20km course with diversions, perhaps that could be achieved, but unfortunately Nationals and rallies in Ireland are a stark contrast to each other in terms of external interest, and thus the influence on the local economy; ultimately money talks, and rallies bring in a lot of money to the locality, cycling nationals less so, and this influences people's tolerance for disruption. Additionally, it would still have been difficult to achieve this on the course in question this ear even at that, as it ran through the centre of the town including along the front of the bus and train station, never mind anywhere else.

Brian?

nee wrote: »

Stopping the race was the only thing that could have been done once it happened, bar a rolling neutralisation, but with only 10k to go that isn't exactly realistic either. But it is an unacceptable eventuality at a national championship, no matter what excuses you want to make. The ladies race was the same speed as the year before, it wasn't a completely unknown eventuality.

It does appear to be a scheduling problem.

It is really disappointing that there has been such a negative and defensive reaction to any criticism of what happened, with the organisers pretty much blaming the women and going on the defensive at all criticism. It shouldn't have happened, it wasn't fair that it happened on the last 10k of a national championships, no matter how negative the race was. The race should be allowed to run its natural course at a national championships, whatever that may be. A 'shut up and deal with it' response is to deny the women this, and really not a great reaction to what happened or a good way to deal with it. It reinforces the second class citizen feeling tbh.

Measures need to be taken in future so it won't happen again. However, it wasn't done lightly and the fact they were women is pretty irrelevant here. A faster moving race almost caught a slower one. Are the organisers blaming the women? I don't think they are, but if they are then they're wrong.

If they had have caught them it would have been chaos. The "natural course" of the race went out the window no matter what.

I just don't see why the gender of one group is relevant. It had nothing to do with the decision. Do you feel it had?

Of course they are upset, it's a horrible thing to happen to them too, after everything they put into it. Running a national championships is a huge, massive undertaking, and all on a volunteer basis which is incredible. I believe they did that absolute best they could, no one is disputing the work, time, sweat and effort put into it. The sustainability of putting all of that on one or two clubs a year really needs to be looked at, it's huge responsibility and work on a relatively small bunch of people.
CI have to step up now, no excuses.

I disagree. The nationals run fine nearly every year. Leave them alone

rizzodun

cython wrote: »

I acknowledge that you haven't read the whole thread, but it has been said several times on this thread that the decision to put the races on the same day was precisely to afford them the same status and importance, by basically putting them in front of the same crowd, etc. In hindsight this backfired, but it was well-intentioned and I don't think anyone doubts that on here.

As for the (presumably you are suggesting closed) 20km course with diversions, perhaps that could be achieved, but unfortunately Nationals and rallies in Ireland are a stark contrast to each other in terms of external interest, and thus the influence on the local economy; ultimately money talks, and rallies bring in a lot of money to the locality, cycling nationals less so, and this influences people's tolerance for disruption. Additionally, it would still have been difficult to achieve this on the course in question this ear even at that, as it ran through the centre of the town including along the front of the bus and train station, never mind anywhere else.

Thanks Cython,

As I said, I'm ignorant to the situation so trying to understand it.

I agree it backfired, and while I know pretty well the difference in rallying and cycling, particularly as I've marshalled many rallies in the past and see the crowds it attracts, I'm just throwing questions out there, perhaps it could be said that the nationals/competitive cycling in general are not promoted enough from a spectator aspect in Ireland?

I've heard it said before that everything leads to the Ras and then that's it for the year.

Maybe if courses were planned with a spectator in mind and the event promoted to that effect it would raise the profile enough to have the races separated / spaced enough to prevent a repeat?

Regardless, I'm sure lessons will be learned, but from seeing the CI statement on it, to me it seems they're pretty much not admitting to anything to do with what happened.

Time to go read the full thread, thanks again.

cython

rizzodun wrote: »

Thanks Cython,

As I said, I'm ignorant to the situation so trying to understand it.

I agree it backfired, and while I know pretty well the difference in rallying and cycling, particularly as I've marshalled many rallies in the past and see the crowds it attracts, I'm just throwing questions out there, perhaps it could be said that the nationals/competitive cycling in general are not promoted enough from a spectator aspect in Ireland?

I've heard it said before that everything leads to the Ras and then that's it for the year.

Maybe if courses were planned with a spectator in mind and the event promoted to that effect it would raise the profile enough to have the races separated / spaced enough to have a repeat?

Regardless, I'm sure lessons will be learned, but from seeing the CI statement on it, to me it seems they're pretty much not admitting to anything to do with what happened.

Time to go read the full thread, thanks again.

Funny that you should mention making the course spectator friendly, as by all accounts CI would not allow a route longer than 20km for the lap, and the most common hypothesis on here is that this was precisely with keeping spectators' attention in mind, by means of ensuring there would be some action/competitors passing reasonably frequently. As I say, from what I've gleaned this is a hypothesis rather than a confirmed justification from CI (though by all accounts the lap length was a confirmed hard limit), but it makes as much sense as any other potential explanation at this point in time.

1bryan

rizzodun wrote: »

Why isn't the womens race ran on a different day to the mens?

A better question would be; what would the women themselves prefer? A race on it's own, on a different day, or to ride the course on the same day as the elite men's race (with the crowds, etc)? It should be more than possible to facilitate both scenarios.

The last time they were on different days (and I'm open to correction on this), was Multyfarnham a few years ago. On the saturday there was, tragically, a fatal traffic accident on the course on the morning the race was due to take place. All racing, understandably, was cancelled that day and the races were run off later in the summer. I'm not suggesting this was a factor in deciding to put them on the same day in subsequent years but it is nice when all our national championship races can be disputed over a single weekend.

buffalo

1bryan wrote: »

It should be more than possible to facilitate both scenarios.

You make it sound rather simple, but there are plenty of restrictions on race organisers in terms of budget for manpower such as Gardaí or barrier rental, road closure orders that the local residents and county council(s) are happy with, traffic management plans that Gardaí and Co Cos must be happy with, resources such as volunteers for marshalling and race vehicles. That's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

Neither scenario is always possible.

greenspurs

What imput , financially and organisation wise , do Cycling Ireland have?

Are the organising clubs just left alone to run the National Championships on their own on behalf of C.I ?

Do C.I give finance to the Clubs ?

Lusk_Doyle

Lets just do it in Corkagh Park. Half an hour plus three laps per race. Done.

1bryan

buffalo wrote: »

You make it sound rather simple, but there are plenty of restrictions on race organisers in terms of budget for manpower such as Gardaí or barrier rental, road closure orders that the local residents and county council(s) are happy with, traffic management plans that Gardaí and Co Cos must be happy with, resources such as volunteers for marshalling and race vehicles. That's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

Neither scenario is always possible.

all of which are in place from the thursday to the sunday of the national champs weekend. I'm not talking about making it an extra day. I'm talking about scheduling within the existing timeframe, so of course it is possible.

buffalo

1bryan wrote: »

all of which are in place from the thursday to the sunday of the national champs weekend. I'm not talking about making it an extra day. I'm talking about scheduling within the existing timeframe, so of course it is possible.

So how would you have scheduled the races within the existing timeframe?

1bryan

buffalo wrote: »

So how would you have scheduled the races within the existing timeframe?

it depends. If it's deemed that the women's race should take place on a different day to the men's (ie: the saturday), the races scheduled for that day could potentially be moved to a 9am start on the sunday, leaving saturday free for the women, and a sizeable gap to the elite race. Or, if it's deemed the women's race take place on the sunday, allow an extra 30 mins to 1 hour, halfing the difference and starting each race accordingly (ie: women's race starts 30 mins earlier, men's, 30 mins later).

Or, less ideal admittedly, move the Master's races to a different weekend.

The year I referred to in my previous post, the women's race eventually took place around mid-september - http://womenscycling.ie/preview-rescheduled-national-championships-saturday/

buffalo

1bryan wrote: »

it depends. If it's deemed that the women's race should take place on a different day to the men's (ie: the saturday), the races scheduled for that day could potentially be moved to a 9am start on the sunday, leaving saturday free for the women, and a sizeable gap to the elite race.

The county council says you can't extend your road closure to 9am as it will prevent deliveries taking place in the area, and impede residents getting to mass in the nearby busy church.

1bryan wrote: »

Or, if it's deemed the women's race take place on the sunday, allow an extra 30 mins to 1 hour, halfing the difference and starting each race accordingly (ie: women's race starts 30 mins earlier, men's, 30 mins later).

The county council says you can't extend your road closure any earlier, same reasons.

1bryan wrote: »

Or, less ideal admittedly, move the Master's races to a different weekend.

You've just doubled the workload for your volunteers!

buffalo

I don't mean to be facetious, but I wonder how much of a grasp you have of the specifics and challenges that the organisers dealt with over the weekend and in the run-up?

greenspurs

If you move one race, you then have to move another.... etc etc .....
Id imagine its time (road closures + stewards + local residents) is the biggest constraint ?

Irish Raven

1bryan wrote:

The year I referred to in my previous post, the women's race eventually took place around mid-september -

That only happened because of a bad car accident where the race was being held. It was due to be on at the same time, and as far as i remember alot of the pro's and elite girls didnt participate then in september when it was on!

1bryan

buffalo wrote: »

The county council says you can't extend your road closure to 9am as it will prevent deliveries taking place in the area, and impede residents getting to mass in the nearby busy church.

oh, come off it. If that's true then I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to argue them down.

http://www.wexfordparish.com/mass-times

the 9am and 10am masses will get a clear run (though if there's a long sermon at the 10 mass they're fecked) but those going to 11 and 12, forget it.

and deliveries on a sunday? For real?

Sorry if that came across as facetious, but....

1bryan

Irish Raven wrote: »

That only happened because of a bad car accident where the race was being held. It was due to be on at the same time, and as far as i remember alot of the pro's and elite girls didnt participate then in september when it was on!

yep, as I mentioned

lyders

1bryan wrote: »

A better question would be; what would the women themselves prefer? A race on it's own, on a different day, or to ride the course on the same day as the elite men's race (with the crowds, etc)? It should be more than possible to facilitate both scenarios.

The last time they were on different days (and I'm open to correction on this), was Multyfarnham a few years ago. On the saturday there was, tragically, a fatal traffic accident on the course on the morning the race was due to take place. All racing, understandably, was cancelled that day and the races were run off later in the summer. I'm not suggesting this was a factor in deciding to put them on the same day in subsequent years but it is nice when all our national championship races can be disputed over a single weekend.

The last time they were on different days was Omagh. And all races went right up the main street of Omagh! It was a few years ago now but I don't remember any traffic problems.

I am a fan of the women's race being held on the Saturday. I understand the argument of getting the same crowd as the men on the Sunday and being on the same podium but imo having them on the same day will always make the women's feel like a bit of a support event, especially if run concurrently. I also wasn't a fan of having to wait around until after the men finish to get our medals and jerseys and I did give that feedback to the organisers last year. In Omagh the main event of the Saturday was the women's and there was reasonable crowds and there was a presentation on the podium at the finish line in front of all the spectators (with flowers and a trophy which pleased my Mum greatly!).

The women's races definitely has to happen on the nationals weekend. Otherwise it will clash with something internationally and not allow riders like me to come home for it.

buffalo

1bryan wrote: »

oh, come off it. If that's true then I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to argue them down.

Have you ever argued with a county council? :pac:

I'm looking forward to racing the next event you organise anyway, please make sure to post details of it.

cornet

1bryan wrote: »

it depends. If it's deemed that the women's race should take place on a different day to the men's (ie: the saturday), the races scheduled for that day could potentially be moved to a 9am start on the sunday, leaving saturday free for the women, and a sizeable gap to the elite race. Or, if it's deemed the women's race take place on the sunday, allow an extra 30 mins to 1 hour, halfing the difference and starting each race accordingly (ie: women's race starts 30 mins earlier, men's, 30 mins later).

Or, less ideal admittedly, move the Master's races to a different weekend.

The year I referred to in my previous post, the women's race eventually took place around mid-september - http://womenscycling.ie/preview-rescheduled-national-championships-saturday/

Genuine question - what was the last race you organised?

brocbrocach

cornet wrote: »

Genuine question - what was the last race you organised?

Show us your medals.
Only race organisers are qualified to talk about this, eh? Gosh it seems like an impossible task. There is just no solution!!! I'm glad they work it out every Sunday throughout the world.

531

1bryan wrote: »

oh, come off it. If that's true then I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to argue them down.

http://www.wexfordparish.com/mass-times

the 9am and 10am masses will get a clear run (though if there's a long sermon at the 10 mass they're fecked) but those going to 11 and 12, forget it.

and deliveries on a sunday? For real?

Sorry if that came across as facetious, but....

Excellent research, but what about the masses in Castlebridge and Crossabeg where the races also passed through?

fat bloke

I think we need the back of a bigger envelope

rizzodun

To be clear, what I was asking was why wasn't the womens race held separately altogether, but on the same weekend, as mentioned by others, with the idea of promoting the whole event as a weekend of racing.

I understand issues may be had with closure of roads etc, and I know it's not the same as rallying, but using this as a comparison, when enough people want it, it can be done.

I get the impression C.I. have little input with the clubs on organisation, maybe I'm wrong, but if that's the case I feel very sorry for the clubs involved organising the events, it's tough dealing with all the red tape (CoCo's, Gardai etc..) and then to have little to no support from the governing body sounds a bit mental.

I'm more of a MTB'r myself, but if the event was on locally to me I would definitely head out to spectate, women's or men's events.

A different event for sure, but the EWS in Wicklow this year, the women got every bit as loud a cheer when they were running the stages as the men.

buffalo

brocbrocach wrote: »

Gosh it seems like an impossible task. There is just no solution!!! I'm glad they work it out every Sunday throughout the world.

Where are they holding National Championship road races this coming Sunday? :rolleyes:

Or do you mean the regular Sunday races, which occasionally fall victim to these kind of clashes?

longshank

lyders wrote: »

The last time they were on different days was Omagh. And all races went right up the main street of Omagh! It was a few years ago now but I don't remember any traffic problems.

I am a fan of the women's race being held on the Saturday. I understand the argument of getting the same crowd as the men on the Sunday and being on the same podium but imo having them on the same day will always make the women's feel like a bit of a support event, especially if run concurrently. I also wasn't a fan of having to wait around until after the men finish to get our medals and jerseys and I did give that feedback to the organisers last year. In Omagh the main event of the Saturday was the women's and there was reasonable crowds and there was a presentation on the podium at the finish line in front of all the spectators (with flowers and a trophy which pleased my Mum greatly!).

The women's races definitely has to happen on the nationals weekend. Otherwise it will clash with something internationally and not allow riders like me to come home for it.

If you have issues, I do not think, as a National Champion, this is the medium or the method to address them. Have you picked up the phone and spoken to CI President about these issues? (His mobile number is on the CI website)
The timing and method of your criticism will put off current and potential race organisers. You are doing no favours for those who race in Ireland.

greenspurs

longshank wrote: »

If you have issues, I do not think, as a National Champion, this is the medium or the method to address them. Have you picked up the phone and spoken to CI President about these issues? (His mobile number is on the CI website)
The timing and method of your criticism will put off current and potential race organisers. You are doing no favours for those who race in Ireland.

There was an open letter sent to the C.I president http://http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-cycling-lead-women-strongly-criticise-cycling-ireland/

whether there was any face to face or private discussion, i dont know

lyders

longshank wrote: »

If you have issues, I do not think, as a National Champion, this is the medium or the method to address them. Have you picked up the phone and spoken to CI President about these issues? (His mobile number is on the CI website)
The timing and method of your criticism will put off current and potential race organisers. You are doing no favours for those who race in Ireland.

This is not my medium or method of addressing issues. This is my medium and method of replying to people to give my opinion and insight. Some of which was asked for and some not!

Criticism is good if constructive. I believe I have been massively constructive in what I have said on here and elsewhere and to the President of CI.

I am doing what I can and what I feel is right for cycling in Ireland. Whatever your stance is, the events that occurred during the women's race can not be allowed to happen again. This shouldn't put organisers off. It's just that things need to be looked at again. There are always lessons to be learned.

And FYI way back in the day I started my cycling career via Boards.ie and I always believed it was good home for discussion. I'd never tell anyone they shouldn't be posting on here.

greenspurs

longshank wrote: »

If you have issues, I do not think, as a National Champion, this is the medium or the method to address them. Have you picked up the phone and spoken to CI President about these issues? (His mobile number is on the CI website)
The timing and method of your criticism will put off current and potential race organisers. You are doing no favours for those who race in Ireland.

I wouldnt agree.
I think people have the right to speak about it, especially the 3time National Champion!
I think the lack of information about the circumstances , and the difficulties and obstacles , of the events of Sundays Elite races, in the national media , from Cycling Ireland especially!! , is what would put off clubs that might want to organise next years event (for Cycling Ireland) .

If the facts of what happened were put out, instead of all the heresay and misinformation, then there wouldnt be as much furore as there is, imo.

Inquitus

lyders wrote: »

And FYI way back in the day I started my cycling career via Boards.ie and I always believed it was good home for discussion. I'd never tell anyone they shouldn't be posting on here.

Any chance you would take up your boards training / racing log again, it would be great to get an insight into the world of women's professional racing.