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National Championship 2017

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    #392
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    Lets just do it in Corkagh Park. Half an hour plus three laps per race. Done.
    Mondello, 45 minutes + 3 laps.
    brocbrocach wrote: »
    Show us your medals.
    Only race organisers are qualified to talk about this, eh? Gosh it seems like an impossible task. There is just no solution!!! I'm glad they work it out every Sunday throughout the world.
    They often don't. Haven't organised any big races but I have helped out on many small ones. The last minute decisions that have to be taken are constant even though you may have spent the last few months at meetings, talking to the council, the gardai, getting local community buy in (and you need it). Its's not like you rock up and say, right so, here is the circuit, here are where the marshals go, let's have at it (although some people do). Analyse traffic in the area at that time, how busy is it, identify every potential resident you will potentially impede, visit their houses, tell them your plan. Partake in local events outside your own to show that your not a one trick pony, you have a vested interest in the area. Design emergency response plans, consult with potential obstacle makers, what time of year is it, will there be a high likely hood of farm machinery if the weather changes, what dairy farmers are in the area, can you guarantee no other farmers are moving stock (they can stop traffic you can't). Safety statements, tidy up afterwards, reliable volunteers. Not to mention you got your club to buy in and front money, will the riders be there on the day, will you break even. You are now representing them to the rest of the cycling community, will you improve or ruin their reputation. Are there other big events nearby on the day that will affect traffic, will the council spring a surprise road resurfacing (Eddie Tobin aside, it has happened in two other races I went too where they resurfaced it two days before the race). Good race logistics are key to a good event, and even the best laid plans can go asunder. I have only skirted a few of the things to consider. Do you have a club that has enough marshals, how much time will they give, will you need to buy in support from other clubs (you certainly cannot afford to pay anyone).
    greenspurs wrote: »
    Well done Shane stokes ... :rolleyes:
    Shane didn't stop it, he would be reporting and commenting on the decision of the comms.

    All this said, I am ever so grateful for Lyders to come on and clarify a few things. My view was very one sided, and there are alot of things I thought that while they sounded reasonable, in hindsight, probably didn't. The prospect of the race being on another day to me before hand, was to me (and others), not a good one as I would have thought their would be some BS backlash that one was being treated lesser than the other. This was quite sexist (although unintentionally). Having talked to riders and listened to Lyders comments, forcing them on the same day to keep the appearance of fairness and equality is probably more insulting.

    Unless CI drop the lap length requirement, it will have to be changed. Pick the races out of a hat to decide who is Saturday and who is Sunday.

    Also be aware that gardai or councils might not allow or appreciate a 2 day event, so if this happens, then you may have to look for the nationals to be held in two different locations, maybe make each one part of another event.


  • Options
    #393
    greenspurs
    Registered Users Posts: 10,471 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    CramCycle wrote: »


    Shane didn't stop it, he would be reporting and commenting on the decision of the comms.

    I never said he did......
    He insinuated/speculated that the width of the roads had an impact on the decision.
    IMO hes trying to heap extra/unwarranted 'blame' on the organisers!
    247469249_2017413731748359_7675802031635703098_n.jpg

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



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    #394
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Finnrocco wrote: »
    Put the Ladies race on Saturday.

    Make it the last race of the day, start it at 2 or so - put all the other races off earlier.

    Might have to run one of the Masters races on Sunday morning.

    Agree fully, with he greatest respect to the masters races the Elite mens and womens races are the most important.


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    #395
    brocbrocach
    Registered Users Posts: 890 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    CramCycle wrote: »
    They often don't. Haven't organised any big races but I have helped out on many small ones. The last minute decisions that have to be taken are constant even though you may have spent the last few months at meetings, talking to the council, the gardai, getting local community buy in (and you need it). Its's not like you rock up and say, right so, here is the circuit, here are where the marshals go, let's have at it (although some people do). Analyse traffic in the area at that time, how busy is it, identify every potential resident you will potentially impede, visit their houses, tell them your plan. Partake in local events outside your own to show that your not a one trick pony, you have a vested interest in the area. Design emergency response plans, consult with potential obstacle makers, what time of year is it, will there be a high likely hood of farm machinery if the weather changes, what dairy farmers are in the area, can you guarantee no other farmers are moving stock (they can stop traffic you can't). Safety statements, tidy up afterwards, reliable volunteers. Not to mention you got your club to buy in and front money, will the riders be there on the day, will you break even. You are now representing them to the rest of the cycling community, will you improve or ruin their reputation. Are there other big events nearby on the day that will affect traffic, will the council spring a surprise road resurfacing (Eddie Tobin aside, it has happened in two other races I went too where they resurfaced it two days before the race). Good race logistics are key to a good event, and even the best laid plans can go asunder. I have only skirted a few of the things to consider. Do you have a club that has enough marshals, how much time will they give, will you need to buy in support from other clubs (you certainly cannot afford to pay anyone).

    I'd well believe it. I don't think anyone was saying it was easy peasy to be fair, and the spin that any criticism of the overall strategy is an attack on the men and women standing at junctions is very unfair. The volunteers and organisers alike are doing trojan work for nothing but the good of the sport.


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    #396
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Bottom line is events went off safely with no major injuries (usual mix of collar bones and road rash !).
    Many many positives, great crowds, some lovely features on the course, facilities great and good atmosphere.
    As with any event lesson can be learned from it and the women's race was the big one this time.
    I wonder should be ask CI to have more support for race organisers?
    Might be one for a motion at the AGM...


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    #397
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Mondello, 45 minutes + 3 laps.

    They often don't. Haven't organised any big races but I have helped out on many small ones. The last minute decisions that have to be taken are constant even though you may have spent the last few months at meetings, talking to the council, the gardai, getting local community buy in (and you need it). Its's not like you rock up and say, right so, here is the circuit, here are where the marshals go, let's have at it (although some people do). Analyse traffic in the area at that time, how busy is it, identify every potential resident you will potentially impede, visit their houses, tell them your plan. Partake in local events outside your own to show that your not a one trick pony, you have a vested interest in the area. Design emergency response plans, consult with potential obstacle makers, what time of year is it, will there be a high likely hood of farm machinery if the weather changes, what dairy farmers are in the area, can you guarantee no other farmers are moving stock (they can stop traffic you can't). Safety statements, tidy up afterwards, reliable volunteers. Not to mention you got your club to buy in and front money, will the riders be there on the day, will you break even. You are now representing them to the rest of the cycling community, will you improve or ruin their reputation. Are there other big events nearby on the day that will affect traffic, will the council spring a surprise road resurfacing (Eddie Tobin aside, it has happened in two other races I went too where they resurfaced it two days before the race). Good race logistics are key to a good event, and even the best laid plans can go asunder. I have only skirted a few of the things to consider. Do you have a club that has enough marshals, how much time will they give, will you need to buy in support from other clubs (you certainly cannot afford to pay anyone).


    Shane didn't stop it, he would be reporting and commenting on the decision of the comms.

    All this said, I am ever so grateful for Lyders to come on and clarify a few things. My view was very one sided, and there are alot of things I thought that while they sounded reasonable, in hindsight, probably didn't. The prospect of the race being on another day to me before hand, was to me (and others), not a good one as I would have thought their would be some BS backlash that one was being treated lesser than the other. This was quite sexist (although unintentionally). Having talked to riders and listened to Lyders comments, forcing them on the same day to keep the appearance of fairness and equality is probably more insulting.

    Unless CI drop the lap length requirement, it will have to be changed. Pick the races out of a hat to decide who is Saturday and who is Sunday.

    Also be aware that gardai or councils might not allow or appreciate a 2 day event, so if this happens, then you may have to look for the nationals to be held in two different locations, maybe make each one part of another event.


    great post. 2 things I'd take from it. First, if there was some way of assigning the race to a 'region' rather than a club, then you would take huge pressure of that single club for providing marshalls/other volunteers. Second, I don't think the men would mind too much having to race on the saturday. I know it would probably suit some of the elite riders who might have the good fortune to be starting the Tour de France the following week by giving an extra day's rest. Perhaps it would encourage our other top pros to ride the race that they seem happy to have ignored for the past several years.


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    #398
    fondriest
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭fondriest


    1bryan wrote: »
    great post. 2 things I'd take from it. First, if there was some way of assigning the race to a 'region' rather than a club, then you would take huge pressure of that single club for providing marshalls/other volunteers. Second, I don't think the men would mind too much having to race on the saturday. I know it would probably suit some of the elite riders who might have the good fortune to be starting the Tour de France the following week by giving an extra day's rest. Perhaps it would encourage our other top pros to ride the race that they seem happy to have ignored for the past several years.

    I would think the only issue with the men riding on Saturday is that the entries for the TT would suffer and it needs numbers to make the event financially work , other than that I think either day should really suit anyone .


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    #399
    leisurely cyclist
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭leisurely cyclist


    The whole event needs to be re-thought. From format, sponsorship, TV coverage, financial-everything. I worked on this also. Should be the marquee event for Cycling Ireland so they need to step up now and drive changes and improvements. The whole event was organised in accordance with the parameters and guidelines laid down by them. We worked within these guidelines. I hope they are serious about a format change because it's not really fair on anyone involved to be subject to the level of criticism that has been thrown about this week - constructive or otherwise.


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    #400
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    fondriest wrote: »
    I would think the only issue with the men riding on Saturday is that the entries for the TT would suffer and it needs numbers to make the event financially work , other than that I think either day should really suit anyone .

    If you can't do a 30 - 40k tt on a thursday and race two days later then you should not be competing at that level. Some of these guys race multi day stage races including grand tours. I for one would not be put off by an hours effort onna thursday and then a race on the saturday.


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    #401
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    If you can't do a 30 - 40k tt on a thursday and race two days later then you should not be competing at that level. Some of these guys race multi day stage races including grand tours. I for one would not be put off by an hours effort onna thursday and then a race on the saturday.
    A lot of the good riders I know do a hard club race on a Thursday and then place in A2, A3 and A4 every weekend. As you said, if your not fit to do both, you probably shouldn't be doing either.


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    #402
    longshank
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭longshank


    fondriest wrote: »
    I would think the only issue with the men riding on Saturday is that the entries for the TT would suffer and it needs numbers to make the event financially work , other than that I think either day should really suit anyone .

    Did I hear right in Derek Webb interview on A1 coaching show (audio very poor) that the womens race is on the same time as mens snr race at the request of the womens comission to give it equal status??


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    #403
    Homer1798
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Homer1798


    longshank wrote: »
    Did I hear right in Derek Webb interview on A1 coaching show (audio very poor) that the womens race is on the same time as mens snr race at the request of the womens comission to give it equal status??

    Yes Longshanks, that is my understanding of why the Women's race was moved from the Saturday to the Sunday, so the Women could showcase their race in front of a bigger audience.........


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    #404
    longshank
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭longshank


    Homer1798 wrote: »
    Yes Longshanks, that is my understanding of why the Women's race was moved from the Saturday to the Sunday, so the Women could showcase their race in front of a bigger audience.........

    If that is true some people look very foolish and is precisely why I thought it was foolish to rush to public criticism.


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    #405
    fondriest
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭fondriest


    CramCycle wrote: »
    A lot of the good riders I know do a hard club race on a Thursday and then place in A2, A3 and A4 every weekend. As you said, if your not fit to do both, you probably shouldn't be doing either.

    Conor Dunne pulled out of the TT to concentrate on the road race . I don't think it's always as simple as a fitness thing .


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