National Championship 2017

fondriest

Inquitus wrote: »

With Irish cycling on the up, our own Pro-Conti Team, as well as the likes of Bennett, Roche, Martin, Mullen etc. all delivering on the world stage, you'd think some consideration might be given to televising the nationals no?

Lots of consideration was given to it and the final decision not to go with it was only taken on Monday , it just wasn't in the budget . Running the Nationals isn't cheap and with practically no help from cycling Ireland ( financially or otherwise) the decision was taken not to spend the money on TV. The bulk of the income comes from entry fees and take my word for it , this event was not run for profit .

Quigs Snr

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

It's a poor victors interview. IMO his tone and demeaneor belittles the event, like he is above it in some way. The roads are bad in Paris Roubaix and loads of riders crash, but that's the nature of the course. Nobody complains about –they all want to win it!

Just to balance this out a little... I saw him pose for selfies with every one who asked him... sign autographs for kids etc... before and after the event... made a couple of wee ones day. As did some others. Very accessible to the fans especially any kids.

1bryan

The absolute balls-up made by the organisers that caused the women's race to be halted is an absolute disgrace. While there's no doubt stopping it was the right thing to do given the men's race caught up with them, the fact that this situation could even arise in the first place, begs questions.

And with one of the masters races having to be stopped on saturday too, I don't think the organisers showered themselves in glory. Acknowledged, unforeseen occurrences are always possible, but surely both of these were preventable.

And, while I don't attend the nationals every year, I have been at quite a few. I can't ever remember there being no podium presentation before.

Derrydingle

Quigs Snr wrote:

Just to balance this out a little... I saw him pose for selfies with every one who asked him... sign autographs for kids etc... before and after the event... made a couple of wee ones day. As did some others. Very accessible to the fans especially any kids.

This is very true all the big names were very cool with people before and after the race

Diarmuid

1bryan wrote: »

The absolute balls-up made by the organisers that caused the women's race to be halted is an absolute disgrace. While there's no doubt stopping it was the right thing to do given the men's race caught up with them, the fact that this situation could even arise in the first place, begs questions.

And with one of the masters races having to be stopped on saturday too, I don't think the organisers showered themselves in glory. Acknowledged, unforeseen occurrences are always possible, but surely both of these were preventable.

And, while I don't attend the nationals every year, I have been at quite a few. I can't ever remember there being no podium presentation before.

That's harsh. It's a small sport with limited support so the reality is that the organisers have to squeeze the races into the limited time window. And with the spread of ability it's always a risk that races come together.

No matter which way your slice and dice it, races can come together. We saw what happens with the ladies and elites. Say you run the M40 and Elites together, there you have the risk of the front of the M40 catching the tail of the elites or visa versa. The fastest Elites were doing the lap 2 minutes faster than the M40s. So while the front of both races wouldn't catch each other, there's such a spread of ability within each bunch, that they would overlap.

It really is a thankless task and as ever, if you feel your club could do a better job then there's always an opening for running it!

BTW I've no affiliation with any of the clubs running the race.

robyntmorton

While there is no problem that I can see (in theory) with making a race give way if a faster, higher level race is in danger of catching up, it is the fact that it was the Elite Women pulled out for the Elite Men is kind of insulting. It sounds very much like the women being ordered out of the way to let the "proper" cyclists through. Really saying to them "you'll always be second best"

They are the top level of road cycling for women in Ireland. They should be given some respect.

With all that said, the organisers and comms had a thankless task there. No matter what way they did it, someone would be aggrieved. It needs to be discussed for next year though just how they can minimise disruption to every race as much as possible.

MPFGLB

I think we have to thank the organisers for what to me seemed like a great course

Sure there were issues but all in all it seemed like a great event

From what I saw the area looked lovely and the support was good.Surely though there needs t be more sponsorship

eeeee

robyntmorton wrote: »

While there is no problem that I can see (in theory) with making a race give way if a faster, higher level race is in danger of catching up, it is the fact that it was the Elite Women pulled out for the Elite Men is kind of insulting. It sounds very much like the women being ordered out of the way to let the "proper" cyclists through. Really saying to them "you'll always be second best"

They are the top level of road cycling for women in Ireland. They should be given some respect.

With all that said, the organisers and comms had a thankless task there. No matter what way they did it, someone would be aggrieved. It needs to be discussed for next year though just how they can minimise disruption to every race as much as possible.

Agree with this.

I even can't find a full list of finishers for the women's race, just the top 3, but you can find the full results for the elite men's (captioned 'If you name is on this list, respect' on Facebook ) and men's masters on stickybottle, but none for the elite women's or masters women.

There were scant updates during the race too.

This doesn't just happen at the nationals, it happened at the last national league in Tuam. We were told on the start line that we were going on front of the A4's (commisaire changed his mind *just before roll out* :mad:), despite our protestations, but we were told the a4 race Would be stopped. As it turned out, we were told to pull in for the a4's, with two women 1 min up the road, the break was 3 mins after they went by. We might not have caught then anyway, but still. Then the A4's were stopped to let us by, then passed us again :rolleyes: It's happened several times at different races. At Tuam again, an ambulance came up behind us as we were lining out around a corner with the sirens on, only two of us joy out of the way, then it proceeded to turn off everything and drive slowly behind the bunch before pulling in to watch the race. It took me half a lap to catch back on. Then all you see afterwards are a4's bitching about being stopped :rolleyes:

It's not exactly encouraging. Numbers are well down this year, and despite the best efforts of organisers (it really is a thankless task), some races are brilliant, and the level of organisation that goes into them all is outstanding, you really, really do feel like a second class citizen, an afterthought, which is a pity after all the bother organisers go through to have a separate women's race. It's really disappointing to see it happen at the biggest national road race of the year.

1bryan

Diarmuid wrote: »

That's harsh. It's a small sport with limited support so the reality is that the organisers have to squeeze the races into the limited time window. And with the spread of ability it's always a risk that races come together.

No matter which way your slice and dice it, races can come together. We saw what happens with the ladies and elites. Say you run the M40 and Elites together, there you have the risk of the front of the M40 catching the tail of the elites or visa versa. The fastest Elites were doing the lap 2 minutes faster than the M40s. So while the front of both races wouldn't catch each other, there's such a spread of ability within each bunch, that they would overlap.

It really is a thankless task and as ever, if you feel your club could do a better job then there's always an opening for running it!

BTW I've no affiliation with any of the clubs running the race.

It's not really rocket science though. They could have started the women's race a bit earlier and/or the men's race later, so the catch couldn't have been made before the women were off the course.

There were no such problems in Kilcullen last year (even though there were still a handful of stragglers from the ladies race that were caught by the men - they had the good sense to pull to the side, but didn't need to stop) so it's not really an unsolveable problem.

1bryan

robyntmorton wrote: »

They are the top level of road cycling for women in Ireland. They should be given some respect.

when the race was stopped, afaik, the field had split into 3 groups. When they were restarted, they were sent off together as a single group. How is that fair on those who made the effort to attack the race?

Also, at the time the race was stopped there was over 20 minutes between first and last rider in the men's race. Just try and get your head around that. You're racing full blooded for however many hours, you're on your last lap (within 5/6km of the end of the race), and you're told to pull in for 20 minutes? Absolutely ridiculous.

on_the_nickel

1bryan wrote: »

It's not really rocket science though. They could have started the women's race a bit earlier and/or the men's race later, so the catch couldn't have been made before the women were off the course.

There were no such problems in Kilcullen last year (even though there were still a handful of stragglers from the ladies race that were caught by the men - they had the good sense to pull to the side, but didn't need to stop) so it's not really an unsolveable problem.

Agreed. The average speeds for the men's and women's races were pretty much the same as last year's races so it was very predictable it would happen. The elite ladies should have been given a higher priority and deserved much, much better. People training all year for the nationals and putting all out there on the road shouldn't be getting pulled over through no fault of their own.

The organisers said they "can't close the roads all day" but would anyone really complain if the ladies race started at 8:00am on a Sunday morning and was finished before the men even started?

And as Nee says above, the coverage of the ladies race by the organisers was poor to say the least, and there's still no full results available. I guess that's related to the stoppage and the timing is now fecked .

1bryan

Results are available on stickybottle now

http://www.stickybottle.com/races-results/full-results-elite-womens-event-national-road-race-championships/

fondriest

1bryan wrote: »

The absolute balls-up made by the organisers that caused the women's race to be halted is an absolute disgrace. While there's no doubt stopping it was the right thing to do given the men's race caught up with them, the fact that this situation could even arise in the first place, begs questions.

And with one of the masters races having to be stopped on saturday too, I don't think the organisers showered themselves in glory. Acknowledged, unforeseen occurrences are always possible, but surely both of these were preventable.

And, while I don't attend the nationals every year, I have been at quite a few. I can't ever remember there being no podium presentation before.

Firstly there was a podium presentation at race HQ.

Secondly the M50 race was halted when a man in a truck would not stop for the marshals at a junction even after his very strongly told not to go down the road and it was right at the wrong time , as you should know marshals legally can not stop someone on the road . You can not account for all eventualities , we had a Guard close by but was tied up with spectators climbing on to a Irish rail bridge ( private property and dangerous) if he had been there then it would have been no issue.

Lastly the ladies had a lap done and were almost finished the second lap when the men started , we gave them such a lead we were actually worried that if the men farted around at the start the women would catch them . This was very obviously not the case. Speaking to a couple of the ladies after the race they said they " had harder sunday tours" than the race until the last lap . Some are suggesting that we should have them on at separate times , if you were at the meetings with Gardaí and council as I was then anyone would know that couldn't happen .

Any decision that was made was made with the best information we had at the time.

Inquitus

fondriest wrote: »

Lots of consideration was given to it and the final decision not to go with it was only taken on Monday , it just wasn't in the budget . Running the Nationals isn't cheap and with practically no help from cycling Ireland ( financially or otherwise) the decision was taken not to spend the money on TV. The bulk of the income comes from entry fees and take my word for it , this event was not run for profit .

I was more meaning a broadcaster might consider taking it on, given the high profile it has these days, not that the promoting club should be responsible for that.

fondriest

Inquitus wrote: »

I was more meaning a broadcaster might consider taking it on, given the high profile it has these days, not that the promoting club should be responsible for that.

Ideally that should happen , broadcasters don't seem to give it much priority unfortunately.

cornet

on_the_nickel wrote: »

The organisers said they "can't close the roads all day" but would anyone really complain if the ladies race started at 8:00am on a Sunday morning and was finished before the men even started?

So sign-on would take place from 06:30 to 07:15. Marshals in place from at least 07:30 and Guards ready from earlier too and out for the day until the men's finish. Best of luck organising next years event!

1bryan

cornet wrote: »

So sign-on would take place from 06:30 to 07:15. Marshals in place from at least 07:30 and Guards ready from earlier too and out for the day until the men's finish. Best of luck organising next years event!

what's so outrageous about any of that? It's pretty much what every sportive manages to do without any problem.

cornet

1bryan wrote: »

what's so outrageous about any of that? It's pretty much what every sportive manages to do without any problem.

Running a sportive is nowhere near like organising a race. The level of involvement from the Guards, Co. Co. etc is at a different level because the race needs to flow at speed through junctions. Locals can also get annoyed with the disruption so it is a balancing act especially with a lapped event. This event was run all day Sat and Sun plus had the time trial. It's the same bunch of volunteers organising it. No doubt if they had put it on on at 08:00 the stickybottle brigade would be out demanding a later start time.

greenspurs

robyntmorton wrote: »

While there is no problem that I can see (in theory) with making a race give way if a faster, higher level race is in danger of catching up, it is the fact that it was the Elite Women pulled out for the Elite Men is kind of insulting. It sounds very much like the women being ordered out of the way to let the "proper" cyclists through. Really saying to them "you'll always be second best"

They are the top level of road cycling for women in Ireland. They should be given some respect.

With all that said, the organisers and comms had a thankless task there. No matter what way they did it, someone would be aggrieved. It needs to be discussed for next year though just how they can minimise disruption to every race as much as possible.

Well, if these top level ladies rode harder, then they probably wouldnt have been caught ! Simple as that.
So if it was another mens race that had had to be stopped, it wouldnt have been as bad ?
If the Elite Ladies race was on a different day, people would then be cribbing that the Ladies should be on the same day as the mens ....
People just cant stop cribbing ....
Well done to the organisers.

fondriest

1bryan wrote: »

what's so outrageous about any of that? It's pretty much what every sportive manages to do without any problem.

Your turn next year

fondriest

robyntmorton wrote: »

While there is no problem that I can see (in theory) with making a race give way if a faster, higher level race is in danger of catching up, it is the fact that it was the Elite Women pulled out for the Elite Men is kind of insulting. It sounds very much like the women being ordered out of the way to let the "proper" cyclists through. Really saying to them "you'll always be second best"

They are the top level of road cycling for women in Ireland. They should be given some respect.

With all that said, the organisers and comms had a thankless task there. No matter what way they did it, someone would be aggrieved. It needs to be discussed for next year though just how they can minimise disruption to every race as much as possible.

The ladies were given respect , the ladies race was put on Sunday so that both " Marquee" events were on the same day. The ladies race wasn't put on at 8 in the morning as some suggest so as to give the ladies respect. The TT was always traditionally on Thursday so as to give the Ladies a day to recover before the race Saturday , we gave and extra days recovery to give the ladies the same respect as the men.

Try to keep everyone happy and you keep nobody happy. It is in no way insulting to ladies to pull them over , basically it is their own fault . I mean seriously a 15km head start with about approx 55- 60 km to go and passed at the 10km to go mark.

ford2600

fondriest wrote: »

Your turn next year

You seem to be heavily involved in this.

Just to give people an idea would you mind giving a quick fagbox calculation of the amount of manhours gone into running this event; between meetings with gardai, cycling Ireland, Co Co, dealing with residents, affected businesses, sponsors, food, marshalling, risk assessments, course selection etc etc etc. i.e. all the stuff you and others did for free

Well done for taking it on and running it

1bryan

fondriest wrote: »

The ladies were given respect

basically it is their own fault .

sure they were.

fondriest

ford2600 wrote: »

You seem to be heavily involved in this.

Just to give people an idea would you mind giving a quick fagbox calculation of the amount of manhours gone into running this event; between meetings with gardai, cycling Ireland, Co Co, dealing with residents, affected businesses, sponsors, food, marshalling, risk assessments, course selection etc etc etc. i.e. all the stuff you and others did for free

Well done for taking it on and running it

Thank you ford2600, to be honest even my hours alone are ridiculous but you did a nice job of summing up some of the workload , I remember thinking I hadn't been in a Garda station in 10 years and I was in it twice a week for the last two months , I printed 700 residents letters and we hand delivered every one of them . We had 150 marshals and I messaged or called every single one of them individually . There was 90 page safety and rout plan and that stuff was just my part. I did get involved in some other parts of other jobs as is inevitably I wanted to help others out with their stuff.
The race director and others put in at least as much time and effort. We made some mistakes on Saturday , we underestimated the traffic volume and had pinch points where we didn't expect them and some places we though would be bad were fine. Sat down with the Gardaí after the Saturday races , ironed out the problems and sunday was a breeze .

The ladies didn't ride hard enough and we're a bunch of idiots.

greenspurs

1bryan wrote: »

sure they were.

What is your problem with what went on?

Its fairly obvious to people that watched it, and understand what went on.
One of the organisers came on and explained why they couldnt have road closures all day to facilitate running the two elite races separatley ...
Obvious !

fondriest

1bryan wrote: »

sure they were.

How were they not ? Please explain. And if you don't mind please make it concise well thought out and informed like the rest of your comments .

Kebel

I was not involved in the organisation / running, but as a volunteer over the weekend, I gained an insight into the level of work work running the weekend of racing involved.

I have no idea how many hours the organising committee put into the event, but I do know the guys and girls involved put in massive hours.

Between static marshals, sign-on, drivers, neutral service, medical teams, guys putting and taking down signs, barriers, sweeping roads etc etc there were over 150 (amended, noting Fondriest's recent post) volunteers some of whom were on their feet from midday on Thursday until very late last night, cleaning up after the event, and at that I know there was still unfinished business carried forward to today.

Personally, and having ridden a few Championships over the years, I never realised just how much effort goes into such a weekend. Chapeau to Wexford Cycling.

Weepsie

fondriest wrote: »

The ladies didn't ride hard enough and we're a bunch of idiots.

Now that's insulting.

Another poster commented on how the first lap of the Men's race was hairy due to the weather conditions. These are the conditions the women would have been in for the entirety of, or a large part of their race.

It won't do much to encourage the women's side of the sport and to blame the riders in such an insulting way is not fair.

1bryan

greenspurs wrote: »

What is your problem with what went on?

Its fairly obvious to people that watched it, and understand what went on.
One of the organisers came on and explained why they couldnt have road closures all day to facilitate running the two elite races separatley ...
Obvious !

Closed roads all day? Or having separate events? Seriously? Do you think that having the races on a fully non-overlapping basis was the only way this could have been mitigated against? Really? The catch was with 10km to go. At an average speed of 34km for the race (roughly the same as the average speed of last year's race). Given the numbers above, can you really see no other option than the 2 you cite?

1bryan

fondriest wrote: »

How were they not ? Please explain. And if you don't mind please make it concise well thought out and informed like the rest of your comments .

I thought it was obvious. Trying to deflect from organisational deficiencies by trying to blame the participants, in what was the absolute climax of their sporting year. This is so disappointing on so many levels.

I was at the race, standing with a group of people I didn't know. All of us were shocked when it happened. And the prevailing feeling was that the organisers would be an issuing an apology for what happened. Certainly not to have them come out and blame the cyclists who went out and flogged their guts for 3 hours.