National Championship 2017

Fian

Article in independent:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/womens-national-cycling-race-halted-for-going-too-slowly-to-allow-mens-race-to-pass-35867163.html

brocbrocach

If all knew in advance that it was very likely that the ladies would get caught ... why were the plans not changed? We're not talking about league races here - a national champs was reduced to a 10k gallop because someone decided that would be a possibility.
I doubt anyone, organisers or riders, feels proud of that one unfortunately.
Could the host club have done with more of a helping hand from CI?

Irish Raven

brocbrocach wrote:

If all knew in advance that it was very likely that the ladies would get caught ... why were the plans not changed? We're not talking about league races here - a national champs was reduced to a 10k gallop because someone decided that would be a possibility. I doubt anyone, organisers or riders, feels proud of that one unfortunately. Could the host club have done with more of a helping hand from CI?

I think that last line is it in a nut shell....i dont think any finger should be pointed at the organising club (and some of them shouldnt be so defensive n scrambling on here, a public views forum, nobody is critising them, just giving opinions).

CI should have alot more of a part to play in the organising of these events. They are making a bucket load of money every year and this should be invested in these races, from purchasing infrastructure likes signs, speakers, aids etc, to possibley closing roads. Its done for marathons and closed for longer durations than any of these races lasted.


This years events were unfortunate that on each of the days, from tt to sat n sunday, problems arouse.

rollingscone

Just remember lads. There's no such thing as gender discrimination. So women should stop expressing opinions and thoughts and get back to the kitchen where they can be quietly equal...

All angry jokes aside, I'm sure whoever made the decision didn't twirl their moustache and say 'Welp men ARE more important' But they made a poor decision IMHO. Which any way you frame the right to complain about it based on your racing credentials HAD to be humiliating to an already undersized group of elite Athletes.

Maybe it was a bad call by Jonny on the spot or maybe the failure was baked inot the structure of the event but it was a failure/learning point.

If you're a non racing or cat 4 cyclist saying that you'd give way to the elite race aren't you claiming parity with elite female riders? Because if you are training and riding as hard as they do then it might be a workable comparison.

I think the best response to the prima facie logic of the average speed being slower ergo they had to be moved out of the way was dealt with best by whoever pointed out that the tactics of the women's race should not have been dictated by the need to be out of the way of the men's event.

The automatic response of "Shut up and stop being critical" simply validates the critics concerns.

CramCycle

fat bloke wrote: »

Well done to the organisers. It's a poisoned chalice and an utterly thankless task. Volunteers and Whistleblowers will forever be the whipping boys of Ireland.

And be you ladies, men, dogs, horses, or Formula One drivers- if you don't race and you get caught to be lapped, then you move the fcuk over. It happened us last week in a club race - semi scratch faffing about not racing (me included) - got caught by semi limit and we had to swallow pride and indignation and yield.

100%

Semi Scratch were faffing about :pac:

People are trying to make it sound as if the organisers either decided mid race that the Ladies race was not important enough, or that no one had put any thought into the splits. Both comments are rubbish.

A reasoned decision on the timing was made, as happens, it didn't work out. Like I said earlier. If the organisers put the Elite Mens off first and the Ladies followed, and the Elites sat up to play mind games, watch each other or just wait till nearer the end, the Comms would have pulled them over as the Ladies race passed them. It would have been an identical situation.

It is not anyone saying the Men did not race, or they are less important, it is how you run the race.

eeeee

The nationals are not a club race, they're the pinnacle of the season.

Stopping the race on the last lap is unjustifiable, that's not to undermine the organising club or the time and effort of the volunteers that went into organising it.

It's not right, or fair, or justified. The race went how it went, it went at the same speed as last year so it can't have been a surprise. It didn't work, lessons can be learned.

It just goes to show the esteem women's cycling is held in. It's not encouraging.
It's also embarrassing for the sport.

It's been picked up outside of here too:
https://totalwomenscycling.com/race-news/womens-elite-peloton-forced-pull-mens-race-pass#SfvkmxX92cuciRV1.97


ETA also agree that CI should step in to help organising clubs with the event. Is a huge ask for any club, and help should be given.

brocbrocach

CramCycle wrote: »

100%

Semi Scratch were faffing about :pac:

People are trying to make it sound as if the organisers either decided mid race that the Ladies race was not important enough, or that no one had put any thought into the splits. Both comments are rubbish.

A reasoned decision on the timing was made, as happens, it didn't work out.

So somebody said beforehand, there's a fair chance the Ladies race will be caught and disrupted but if they don't ride good and fast that's just their tough luck? That "reasoned decision" isn't good enough for a National Championship tbf ...
At the very least it's horrible optics for the sport.

Sarz91

This is probably going to be a pretty unpopular opinion going by what's been mentioned in here before.

I think it's pretty unfair to look to the organisers of the event. Nowhere was it ever mentioned that the men's elite race was more important than that of the women's. The way I see it, the organisers tried to make it as fair as possible. With the logistics of it it would have been easier for the organisers to simply put the women's elite race on another day. In the interest of equality (which everyone seems to be screaming about) they put them on the same day.

As mentioned previously the women had a 15km advantage with 50ish km to go. Within 40km of starting the race the elite men caught the elite women. Looking at it the elite men averaged about 41-42km/h for the first 40km. Up that to even 45km/h just to make it handy and you're looking at somewhere close to 30km/h for the elite women for that same hour. Now that figures really closer to 27km/h in reality. I've been in plenty of races, A3 and A4, with women who had no real issue keeping the pace at all so whatever happened on Sunday in the female bunch, I don't know but it sure as hell doesn't sound like a whole lot of racing was going on, at least for that hour anyway.

sterideal

Where are the best places to go dancing in Cork,Clare,Kerry,or Tipperary,

wav1

Simply cannot believe the slating that the organisers are getting on here about the weekend.I first saw the plans for this back in November 2015 and since the organisers were granted the champs some time later they have done absouloutely nothing else only plan plan plan and more plan.
People seem to forget that these things are all put together by volunteers.
Was everything perfect NO
Will they always be perfect NO
Did all the organising crew try their best YES
ye have no idea what goes into all this.Getting off work early,Falling out with spouses,not seeing kids is only a part of it.
I would personally like to congratulate the crew on a Trojan effort at the weekend.
Spoken about here earlier I know but the format of this weekend looks like changing for next year.More on this in due course.Needs to be checked whether ir requires a motion to AGM or not.
Anyway its due in Connaght next year and I wish my counterpart in that province all the best when they have to try and sell this event to some club they hope to step up and promote it.Hope theres not too many from Connaght looking at the negative vibes here or the riders who were crowned champs yesterday could end up having their titles for longer than was expected.Funny enough I have heard very little in the lines of complaints from any riders.

lismuse

Well if it's dancing to Irish music of a "National" standard ......
You should come to Clare.
Willie Clancy Week is on next week.

wexandproud

sterideal wrote: »

Where are the best places to go dancing in Cork,Clare,Kerry,or Tipperary,

great idea , lets go , all the flag waving has made me thirsty, are ya going fondriest be right laugh . i have to be home before friday or herself will go mad

fondriest

wexandproud wrote: »

great idea , lets go , all the flag waving has made me thirsty, are ya going fondriest be right laugh . i have to be home before friday or herself will go mad

Great idea but I'd be divorced before the car left the drive way at this stage :-)

wexandproud

fondriest wrote: »

Great idea but I'd be divorced before the car left the drive way at this stage :-)

we all go to your place so ..we can all bring a bottle and i'll bring ham if someone else brings a few sliced pans for the sammiches .. and cocktail sausages... and records for the dancin

MPFGLB

I never knew Wexford people like to dance so much

Being from Clare of course I am a natural dancer but never knew Wexford people were light on their feet..must bear it in mind



Good luck to whoever is taking on the Nationals next year

ford2600

MPFGLB wrote: »

I never knew Wexford people like to dance so much

Being from Clare of course I am a natural dancer but never knew Wexford people were light on their feet..must bear it in mind



Good luck to whoever is taking on the Nationals next year

Wexford lads are all about the road, bike or on foot

https://youtu.be/Z0B-Nf4kahA

MPFGLB

Emmm ......broadening my music horizons

Don't know I missed that one

fondriest

wexandproud wrote: »

we all go to your place so ..we can all bring a bottle and i'll bring ham if someone else brings a few sliced pans for the sammiches .. and cocktail sausages... and records for the dancin

We're from Wexford , we'll just dance at the crossroads :-)

Weepsie

wav1 wrote: »

Simply cannot believe the slating that the organisers are getting on here about the weekend.I first saw the plans for this back in November 2015 and since the organisers were granted the champs some time later they have done absouloutely nothing else only plan plan plan and more plan.
People seem to forget that these things are all put together by volunteers.
Was everything perfect NO
Will they always be perfect NO
Did all the organising crew try their best YES
ye have no idea what goes into all this.Getting off work early,Falling out with spouses,not seeing kids is only a part of it.
I would personally like to congratulate the crew on a Trojan effort at the weekend.
Spoken about here earlier I know but the format of this weekend looks like changing for next year.More on this in due course.Needs to be checked whether ir requires a motion to AGM or not.
Anyway its due in Connaght next year and I wish my counterpart in that province all the best when they have to try and sell this event to some club they hope to step up and promote it.Hope theres not too many from Connaght looking at the negative vibes here or the riders who were crowned champs yesterday could end up having their titles for longer than was expected.Funny enough I have heard very little in the lines of complaints from any riders.

Weren't some Connacht clubs shafted this year in relation to racing and cancellations

They could leverage it to their benefit and put on something, plus some fantastic roads out wesht

harringtonp

nee wrote: »

The nationals are not a club race, they're the pinnacle of the season.

Stopping the race on the last lap is unjustifiable, that's not to undermine the organising club or the time and effort of the volunteers that went into organising it.

It's not right, or fair, or justified. The race went how it went, it went at the same speed as last year so it can't have been a surprise. It didn't work, lessons can be learned.

It just goes to show the esteem women's cycling is held in. It's not encouraging.
It's also embarrassing for the sport.

No, the commissaires made the correct decision at the time. I was watching at Castlebridge and what they did was the only reasonable option available. It was clear on the last lap they would be caught. The remaining women in the race were all in one tight group, there was no break and anyone dropped had pulled out. In the mens race there was a break and 3 distinct groups along with lone riders. There was however a massive time gap between the first and second groups and it seemed obvious that the first group could pass and the ladies continue without being caught by the second group. If they were to stop the mens race it would have required a huge amount of coordination (which would never have worked) to stop all riders at the same time for the same amount of time.

It was simply about choosing the least worst option which they did

on_the_nickel

I was going to do a longer post but it'll just go round in circles, so this is where I'm coming from:-

- Ultimately, what happened in the elite ladies race was a shame, and could have been avoided. Rightly or wrongly, it shouldn't have happened and the competitors deserved better - saying it was because they weren't riding hard enough isn't fair in my opinion, as the speeds were similar to last year's.
- No one is dismissing or belittling the mammoth efforts of all involved in the organisation of this race. It's a huge task, and the cycling community are extremely grateful for the time everyone put in to make what was, for the most part, a brilliant weekend. No race or event is going to be perfect, so please don't misconstrue people making valid points as "cribbing" or not being grateful.
- Races up and down the country happen because volunteers and passionate people make them happen. Be it the Ras, the nationals or a club race, it's the same and unless I'm very much mistaken, it's all done with minimal help from CI.
- Leading to the final point. With membership is growing year on year, more racing licenses than ever before being taken out, with the cost of license going up a fair bit recently, it's time for CI to do more with their revenues. They need to be stronger in supporting clubs promoting races and in lobbying the powers that be to allow the sport to grow. Cancellations of races in Connaught and North Dublin is a worrying trend that needs to be addressed asap.

flatty

This complaining is dreadful. It makes me ashamed. I'm an oldish man, who couldn't even race cat 4, but I could have comfortably stayed at that speed.
Well done to all concerned, and f3ck the whingers.

wexandproud

fondriest wrote: »

We're from Wexford , we'll just dance at the crossroads :-)

i can tell ya , if ya saw me dancing its a sight that would be etched in your mind forever .... like a nightmare
good luck all

MPFGLB

Nicolas Roche has spoken on the course and the race

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/roche-champs-negative-irish-scene-now-strong/

cython

Sarz91 wrote: »

This is probably going to be a pretty unpopular opinion going by what's been mentioned in here before.

I think it's pretty unfair to look to the organisers of the event. Nowhere was it ever mentioned that the men's elite race was more important than that of the women's. The way I see it, the organisers tried to make it as fair as possible. With the logistics of it it would have been easier for the organisers to simply put the women's elite race on another day. In the interest of equality (which everyone seems to be screaming about) they put them on the same day.

As mentioned previously the women had a 15km advantage with 50ish km to go. Within 40km of starting the race the elite men caught the elite women. Looking at it the elite men averaged about 41-42km/h for the first 40km. Up that to even 45km/h just to make it handy and you're looking at somewhere close to 30km/h for the elite women for that same hour. Now that figures really closer to 27km/h in reality. I've been in plenty of races, A3 and A4, with women who had no real issue keeping the pace at all so whatever happened on Sunday in the female bunch, I don't know but it sure as hell doesn't sound like a whole lot of racing was going on, at least for that hour anyway.

Where are you getting that figure of 27 km/h from? Lydia Boylan's Strava tells a different story, and the only way I'm seeing 27 km/h out of that is if you include the stop (which was outside of their control and after the fact of the decision being made, and IMHO shouldn't be counted as a result), as the neutralised restart in itself doesn't drop it that much. Otherwise the average for the last 2 laps (i.e. approx the last hour) was 34 km/h. Admittedly she was the race winner, but not by so much that her average wouldn't be representative of the bunch (approx 7 seconds).

To be clear, this should not be taken as a criticism of the organisers, but some people are definitely making out that there was more that the women's race could have done to stay away.

Irish Raven

Comparing times from last year with the women is irrelevant, the course was completely different, and the weather was awful last year. Chalk and cheese.

From speaking to 9 r 10 of the women yesterday, pretty much all said it was very very negative and at no point up to the last climb did anyone attempt to attack.

The reasons for this are unknown...and i know a couple were scratching their heads after, wondering why they didnt push it on!!

Sarz91

cython wrote: »

Where are you getting that figure of 27 km/h from? Lydia Boylan's Strava tells a different story, and the only way I'm seeing 27 km/h out of that is if you include the stop (which was outside of their control and after the fact of the decision being made, and IMHO shouldn't be counted as a result), as the neutralised restart in itself doesn't drop it that much. Otherwise the average for the last 2 laps (i.e. approx the last hour) was 34 km/h. Admittedly she was the race winner, but not by so much that her average wouldn't be representative of the bunch (approx 7 seconds).

To be clear, this should not be taken as a criticism of the organisers, but some people are definitely making out that there was more that the women's race could have done to stay away.

I took it from what I saw on strava from the elite mens race. With the women supposedly 15 km ahead with 50km to go and being caught 10km from the finish. Looking at what the elite men averaged for that 40km, or up to when the female bunch was caught, it was 41-42km/h. From that it makes sense that the elite men caught the elite women within an hour of racing there or there abouts. So having caught them in an hour averaging just over 40km/h I thought it made sense that the elite women were going 15km/h slower thus the figure in or around 27km/h.

Homer1798

Just to clarify a few things, from someone who was there. When the Women's race was stopped the bunch was together complete as 1 group, the last riders to get back on did so well before Castlebridge, so well before the decision was made to stop the race. The women's race attracted a small enough field and this may have contributed to a very negative race, by negative I mean 1 rider attacked after the start of the race and got a small gap & was caught soon after, the next attack was the winners attack on the Codds Lane climb which broke up the field into 3 small groups & some stragglers(2 of these joined to form the group racing for silver). So 2 attacks in 94 km, that's negative. The race was stopped for about 4 minutes waiting for the men's race, which when it arrived was spread over 6 minutes from front to back. Plus about 2 minutes to get the Women's race ready to roll again, it was neutralised for about 1km to let everyone settle in again. Did this delay affect the outcome of the race? I don't think so, Lydia Boylan won, no surprise there, Lauren Creamer was 2nd no surprise there and 3rd was Ellen McDermot, no real surprise there either, the remainder of the chasing bunch was made up of the best domestic riders, Eve McCrystal, Kathrine Smith (both of the best performing domestic riders this season) Fiona Meade (former National Champion) Sinead Oakes (Masters Champion) Grace Young (2nd Masters) plus Lydia Gurley, Irish Track Squad & Claire McIlwaine, all these, women without exception would have been there with or without the stoppage, of those those that might have been expected to be in the front group.... Josie Knight @53sec gave up her own chances to lead her team mate Boylan into the final climb, Eillen Burns (National TT Champion) finished @ 23secs, Kelly Murphy (2nd in TT) also finished in this group @ 23 secs, there was nobody else fancied that could claim to be disadvantaged, Fiona Guighen was the only rider to have a mechanical while in the bunch, and she got back on easily. So the race was stopped but the outcome was the same. Those complaining here should be aware that last year the Champs had to move venue 3 times, when no club in Munster could run it Orwell Wheelers took the reins and saved it despite having to change venue from the Phoenix Park to Blessington to Kilcullen, this year the event organiser (all volunteers) gets berated by keyboard warriors, because according to them it wasn't good enough, lets hope next year there is a champs, because it is a mammoth event to run and clubs are now in fear of running them due to the unjustified negative comments being aimed their way.

Eamonnator

Storm in a tea cup.

Quigs Snr

Homer1798 wrote: »

Just to clarify a few things, from someone who was there. When the Women's race was stopped the bunch was together complete as 1 group, the last riders to get back on did so well before Castlebridge, so well before the decision was made to stop the race. The women's race attracted a small enough field and this may have contributed to a very negative race, by negative I mean 1 rider attacked after the start of the race and got a small gap & was caught soon after, the next attack was the winners attack on the Codds Lane climb which broke up the field into 3 small groups & some stragglers(2 of these joined to form the group racing for silver). So 2 attacks in 94 km, that's negative. The race was stopped for about 4 minutes waiting for the men's race, which when it arrived was spread over 6 minutes from front to back. Plus about 2 minutes to get the Women's race ready to roll again, it was neutralised for about 1km to let everyone settle in again. Did this delay affect the outcome of the race? I don't think so, Lydia Boylan won, no surprise there, Lauren Creamer was 2nd no surprise there and 3rd was Ellen McDermot, no real surprise there either, the remainder of the chasing bunch was made up of the best domestic riders, Eve McCrystal, Kathrine Smith (both of the best performing domestic riders this season) Fiona Meade (former National Champion) Sinead Oakes (Masters Champion) Grace Young (2nd Masters) plus Lydia Gurley, Irish Track Squad & Claire McIlwaine, all these, women without exception would have been there with or without the stoppage, of those those that might have been expected to be in the front group.... Josie Knight @53sec gave up her own chances to lead her team mate Boylan into the final climb, Eillen Burns (National TT Champion) finished @ 23secs, Kelly Murphy (2nd in TT) also finished in this group @ 23 secs, there was nobody else fancied that could claim to be disadvantaged, Fiona Guighen was the only rider to have a mechanical while in the bunch, and she got back on easily. So the race was stopped but the outcome was the same. Those complaining here should be aware that last year the Champs had to move venue 3 times, when no club in Munster could run it Orwell Wheelers took the reins and saved it despite having to change venue from Blessington to Kilcullen, this year the event organiser (all volunteers) gets berated by keyboard warriors, because according to them it wasn't good enough, lets hope next year there is a champs, because it is a mammoth event to run and clubs are now in fear of running them due to the unjustified negative comments being aimed their way.

Spot on there Homer. I was standing there when they stopped the race having being riding around the course in reverse for the day... and I saw it exactly how you described it. A very unfortunate set of circumstances of course, but the right decision was made given the alternatives.

Scenic, impressive course with a nice atmosphere. First time in a long time I enjoyed watching a race. Well done to all involved.