Britain to go to war with Spain over Gibraltar ?

Stars and Stripes

Well you have to wonder is this guy sane or what, mind you it says a lot about the mindset of the British establishment and those who support Brexit :rolleyes: Going to war over a rock with a population of around 32,000 peeing off the rest of the EU which it's in enough trouble with due to Brexit for trade would be a bright idea wouldn't it. And this former rear admiral in the British navy of course hopes the USA will back them up And with an estimated 381,025 British citizens living in Spain it would be uncomfortable them there now wouldn't it. Does this British imperialist need to be told it's 2017 not 1617 or what ?


"Britain could cripple Spain if war broke out over Gibraltar claims ex-Royal Navy commander"
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3235404/britain-gibraltar-spain-war-brexit/

sparky42

It's the Sun of course they found some twat who just wants to beat his chest, doesn't mean feck all. The UK is not going to do anything military over Gibraltar. Hell this Admiral just wants more money for the RN (not a surprise given it's state).

That being said, he's not wrong about the weight of militaries, I mean at least the RN subs can surface after diving, something the overweight Spanish SSK's can't...

mikeym

There wont be a war.

Thousands of British tourists go to Spain every year.

Lots of Ex Pat Brits living in Spain aswell.

A war would be damaging to the Spanish tourism industry.

uck51js9zml2yt

If it gets the UK a deal, Gibraltar is Spanish.
As for a war... Uk v Europe?? Not going to happen.

Gatling

Boats from spain in Gibraltar waters ,that's a more than regular occurrence neither will be going to war against each other

ZeroThreat

About time they gave those Frizzy haired, sallow skinned Johnny (Juan-y) foreigners a bally good thrashing!!!!




Kidding.

sparky42

Gatling wrote: »

Boats from spain in Gibraltar waters ,that's a more than regular occurrence neither will be going to war against each other

To be fair it wasn't todays incursion that started this farcical story but Howard's act of foot in mouth over the weekend. Why the opinion of a former Tory figure is enough to start this is beyond me though.

ZeroThreat

sparky42 wrote: »

To be fair it wasn't todays incursion that started this farcical story but Howard's act of foot in mouth over the weekend. Why the opinion of a former Tory figure is enough to start this is beyond me though.

Even the Americans noted that the British were a people never happy unless elbows deep in a scrap with another country.

Stars and Stripes

ZeroThreat wrote: »

Even the Americans noted that the British were a people never happy unless elbows deep in a scrap with another country.

Yeah and getting their ar$es handed to them with the Americans having to come to their rescue


Losing Small Wars by Frank Ledwidge - is an excellent book – almost. It provides a devastating, highly readable critique of why Britain's armed forces have fared so badly in two of the country's most recent and controversial conflicts: Iraq and Afghanistan. Of the many military books that have saturated the market in recent years, few have been so precise as this one. It spells out in specific, and at times painful, detail why the British Army was humiliated in Iraq.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/8652343/Losing-Small-Wars-by-Frank-Ledwidge-review.html

sparky42

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Yeah and getting their ar$es handed to them with the Americans having to come to their rescue


Losing Small Wars by Frank Ledwidge - is an excellent book – almost. It provides a devastating, highly readable critique of why Britain’s armed forces have fared so badly in two of the country’s most recent and controversial conflicts: Iraq and Afghanistan. Of the many military books that have saturated the market in recent years, few have been so precise as this one. It spells out in specific, and at times painful, detail why the British Army was humiliated in Iraq.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/8652343/Losing-Small-Wars-by-Frank-Ledwidge-review.html

You do realise for all your smugness regarding the UK's issues, other than arguable France they are the best Europe has in combat forces right? What does it say about the state of all the rest of them so?

Stars and Stripes

sparky42 wrote: »

To be fair it wasn't todays incursion that started this farcical story but Howard's act of foot in mouth over the weekend. Why the opinion of a former Tory figure is enough to start this is beyond me though.

Howard was a very senior member of the British navy, an ex rear admiral and hence his mindset has got publicity.

sparky42 wrote: »

You do realise for all your smugness regarding the UK's issues, other than arguable France they are the best Europe has in combat forces right? What does it say about the state of all the rest of them so?

Is that right, who reckons that ? The Brits themselves I presume or was there a European championship of military capability recently. That's the Brits again like that d!ckhead of that ex high ranking officer Howard, always grossly over estimating themselves, gives the rest of us a chuckle from time to time though.

sparky42

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Howard was a very senior member of the British navy, an ex rear admiral and hence his mindset has got publicity.

Is that right, who reckons that ? The Brits themselves I presume or was there a European championship of military capability recently. That's the Brits again like that d!ckhead of that ex high ranking officer Howard, always grossly over estimating themselves, gives the rest of us a chuckle from time to time though.

No reality, it's been highly and well published about the systemic issues the German's have for example in both their land and air forces and equipment. The French are the only others with SSN's (which give a significant tactical advantage) but they are a generation older than the Astutes. The UK Forces have had more long term ground operations than many of the EU NATO nations (some of whom had significant restrictions in deployments limiting active combat situations).

Again get over the kneejerk British slagging and look at what the others have been doing in the same time.

Keplar240B

Anyone want to war game it?

The Spanish storm Gib tomorrow
What could Britain do?

Victor

Keplar240B wrote: »

Anyone want to war game it?

The Spanish storm Gib tomorrow
What could Britain do?

Threaten to nuke Spain. Not a lot else.

Sure, over a period of months or years, they could sink the entire Spanish Navy - they couldn't do it quickly, because the Spanish Air Force would give it near total air superiority in the area of operations. Note that the Royal Navy has no current aircraft carriers or carrier aircraft.

However, assembling an invasion force against the Spanish Air Force and Army would have serious problems. The Spanish would know to within a few km of where they would intend to land.

A setback for the Spanish would be the lack of long-range airborne radar.

Stars and Stripes

ZeroThreat wrote: »

About time they gave those Frizzy haired, sallow skinned Johnny (Juan-y) foreigners a bally good thrashing!!!!




Kidding.

DON'T PANIC .... DON'T PANIC .... BLIGHTY WILL SHOW JOHNNY FOREIGNER THEY MEAN BUSINESS !!!

AlanG

While the British are undoubtedly a superior military force to Spain they would certainly not be capable of launching an expeditionary force capable of retaking an overseas territory which had a defensive position that can be reinforced by land. That is why they surrendered Hong Kong without a fight when the lease on the new territories expired. Even a naval blockade would be of limited use unless Spain were expelled from the EU.
Either way this wont happen in our lifetimes.

Stars and Stripes

sparky42 wrote: »

No reality, it's been highly and well published about the systemic issues the German's have for example in both their land and air forces and equipment. The French are the only others with SSN's (which give a significant tactical advantage) but they are a generation older than the Astutes. The UK Forces have had more long term ground operations than many of the EU NATO nations (some of whom had significant restrictions in deployments limiting active combat situations).

Again get over the kneejerk British slagging and look at what the others have been doing in the same time.

SSN's nuking Spain or even inferring it, well that would be clever since there's an estimated 381,025 British citizens living in Spain and hundreds of thousands of other EU citizens, might wipe out the population of Gibraltar itself while they were at it. A bit like nuking New York state because of a claim on Manhattan island. And how might Frau Merkel and co. view any threats to fellow EU member Spain ? Like the Americans did over Suez in 1956 they might tell the Bundesbank/EU Central bank to dump Sterling bonds and reserves causing a world wide run on the pound with disastrous consequences for Britain. But as stated, it just goes to show the mindset of many in the British establishment like Rear Admiral Howard with illusions of British empire 2.0.

As for the UK Forces have had more long term ground operations, it's a pity they couldn't learn from them as pointed out Uncle Sam had to divert troops and resources to save them in Basra and Helmand. For feck's sake, didn't the Afghan villagers have to give them cattle trucks to evacuate from Helmand, so much for SSN's etc

gallag

Victor wrote: »

Threaten to nuke Spain. Not a lot else.

Sure, over a period of months or years, they could sink the entire Spanish Navy - they couldn't do it quickly, because the Spanish Air Force would give it near total air superiority in the area of operations. Note that the Royal Navy has no current aircraft carriers or carrier aircraft.

However, assembling an invasion force against the Spanish Air Force and Army would have serious problems. The Spanish would know to within a few km of where they would intend to land.

A setback for the Spanish would be the lack of long-range airborne radar.

Ok, playing armchair General war games... Spain invades the rock, no other factors like Argentina taking advantage of the situation or help from third party's? NO hiccups like weapons partners stopping supplys? For example is it France make the aster missiles for the 45's?

FANTASY.

Wouldn't need to rush! I'd put a massive effort into finishing the carrier's, the the QE is 90% so 24hr shifts with bonuses, still need the aircraft so that would ultimately be the bottleneck but with a push try to get 12-18 ready within 12-16 months. Push BAE to finish remaining astute subs and push forward with type 26 frigate program, order 2 more type 45's with better engine's, won't be ready in time but nice as a back up to potential loss and would be ready for the POW carrier coming on line. Look to send a carrier group within 14-18 months from invasion consisting of 1x QE carrier, 4 type 45's, 4 astute subs few 23's and support ships. Not much chance of any of this happening though lol.

Realistically...

Would need an immediate response due to public pressure, would have to keep some hulls out in the Falkland islands as the argies would capitalise if at all possible, Spain has three good diesel subs but this would be the area the UK has a massive advantage, 11 subs and the astute class is one of the finest, in a deep water skirmish the astute would dominate anything the Spanish have but in more shallow coastal waters I don't know but I would try and use the sub advantage to blockade the Mediterranean and protect the 3 45's I would park at maximum range from Gibraltar to control the air, no need for a carrier as it would be possible to strike Spain from mainland UK with refuelling in air, could strike from Cyprus also. I would imagine after a short period of time the Spanish people would put enough pressure on their government to sue for peace. Can't see anything but a British win.

TireeTerror

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Yeah and getting their ar$es handed to them with the Americans having to come to their rescue


Losing Small Wars by Frank Ledwidge - is an excellent book – almost. It provides a devastating, highly readable critique of why Britain's armed forces have fared so badly in two of the country's most recent and controversial conflicts: Iraq and Afghanistan. Of the many military books that have saturated the market in recent years, few have been so precise as this one. It spells out in specific, and at times painful, detail why the British Army was humiliated in Iraq.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/8652343/Losing-Small-Wars-by-Frank-Ledwidge-review.html

and yet it would be the British forces first to save Ireland from any conflict given that the Irish forces are a toy military force. Jesus the allegedly disbanded IRA probably has more power.

Stars and Stripes

gallag wrote: »

Ok, playing armchair General war games... Spain invades the rock, no other factors like Argentina taking advantage of the situation or help from third party's? NO hiccups like weapons partners stopping supplys? For example is it France make the aster missiles for the 45's?

FANTASY.

Wouldn't need to rush! I'd put a massive effort into finishing the carrier's, the the QE is 90% so 24hr shifts with bonuses, still need the aircraft so that would ultimately be the bottleneck but with a push try to get 12-18 ready within 12-16 months. Push BAE to finish remaining astute subs and push forward with type 26 frigate program, order 2 more type 45's with better engine's, won't be ready in time but nice as a back up to potential loss and would be ready for the POW carrier coming on line. Look to send a carrier group within 14-18 months from invasion consisting of 1x QE carrier, 4 type 45's, 4 astute subs few 23's and support ships. Not much chance of any of this happening though lol.

Realistically...

Would need an immediate response due to public pressure, would have to keep some hulls out in the Falkland islands as the argies would capitalise if at all possible, Spain has three good diesel subs but this would be the area the UK has a massive advantage, 11 subs and the astute class is one of the finest, in a deep water skirmish the astute would dominate anything the Spanish have but in more shallow coastal waters I don't know but I would try and use the sub advantage to blockade the Mediterranean and protect the 3 45's I would park at maximum range from Gibraltar to control the air, no need for a carrier as it would be possible to strike Spain from mainland UK with refuelling in air, could strike from Cyprus also. I would imagine after a short period of time the Spanish people would put enough pressure on their government to sue for peace. Can't see anything but a British win.

Would the British public, for whom Brexit was 52.5% was leave and Remain 47.5%, not be a bit to put it mildly pessimistic to start a war with Spain and pee off the rest of the EU as their in enough trouble ? As for blockading the Med, again might just slightly pee off France, Italy and other EU countries and north Africa ? And a potential Lusitania type incident wouldn't help the Brits cause would it.

And what if Frau Merkel tells the Bundesbank/EU Central bank to dump Sterling bonds and reserves causing a world wide run on the pound with disastrous consequences for Britain like the Suez crisis in 1956. "Realistically" it's 2017 not 1617.

Stars and Stripes

TireeTerror wrote: »

and yet it would be the British forces first to save Ireland from any conflict given that the Irish forces are a toy military force. Jesus the allegedly disbanded IRA probably has more power.

Oh dear the Paul Williams/Jim Cusack/Tom Clonan Walter Mitty security club is here Let's stick to the Gibraltar discussion thanks.

ohnonotgmail

given Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty surely whoever invades first will be the loser?

gallag

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

given Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty surely whoever invades first will be the loser?

Does it apply to colonies and foreign held territory? Spain's own colonies might take advantage of a war situation.

gallag

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Would the British public, for whom Brexit was 52.5% was leave and Remain 47.5%, not be a bit to put it mildly pessimistic to start a war with Spain and pee off the rest of the EU as their in enough trouble ? As for blockading the Med, again might just slightly pee off France, Italy and other EU countries and north Africa ? And a potential Lusitania type incident wouldn't help the Brits cause would it.

And what if Frau Merkel tells the Bundesbank/EU Central bank to dump Sterling bonds and reserves causing a world wide run on the pound with disastrous consequences for Britain like the Suez crisis in 1956. "Realistically" it's 2017 not 1617.

Yeah, I believe an attack on British territory would have the majority of the nation unified in demand for retribution see this day 35 years ago as an example. A military blockade for Spanish military ships to stop them getting near the 45's in my example and could/would germany bankrupt itself to protect a spain that attacked a sovereign territory?

ohnonotgmail

gallag wrote: »

Does it apply to colonies and foreign held territory? Spain's own colonies might take advantage of a war situation.

It applies to any attack on a nato member in Europe or North America. Of course as Nato members both are obliged under Article 1 to find a peaceful solution to any disputes.

sparky42

AlanG wrote: »

While the British are undoubtedly a superior military force to Spain they would certainly not be capable of launching an expeditionary force capable of retaking an overseas territory which had a defensive position that can be reinforced by land. That is why they surrendered Hong Kong without a fight when the lease on the new territories expired. Even a naval blockade would be of limited use unless Spain were expelled from the EU.
Either way this wont happen in our lifetimes.

There's a quantum difference between the two situations to be fair, Spain is not China and Gibraltar isn't on the opposite side of the globe. Of course we won't see war between them however.

sparky42

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

SSN's nuking Spain or even inferring it, well that would be clever since there's an estimated 381,025 British citizens living in Spain and hundreds of thousands of other EU citizens, might wipe out the population of Gibraltar itself while they were at it. A bit like nuking New York state because of a claim on Manhattan island. And how might Frau Merkel and co. view any threats to fellow EU member Spain ? Like the Americans did over Suez in 1956 they might tell the Bundesbank/EU Central bank to dump Sterling bonds and reserves causing a world wide run on the pound with disastrous consequences for Britain. But as stated, it just goes to show the mindset of many in the British establishment like Rear Admiral Howard with illusions of British empire 2.0.

As for the UK Forces have had more long term ground operations, it's a pity they couldn't learn from them as pointed out Uncle Sam had to divert troops and resources to save them in Basra and Helmand. For feck's sake, didn't the Afghan villagers have to give them cattle trucks to evacuate from Helmand, so much for SSN's etc

Who the Feck suggested nuking anyone? Hell the SSN's don't even carry nukes you muppet. I gave you examples of the significant difference in capabilities, and again for your sneers about the UK forces, Spains are WORSE!

Stars and Stripes

gallag wrote: »

Yeah, I believe an attack on British territory would have the majority of the nation unified in demand for retribution see this day 35 years ago as an example. A military blockade for Spanish military ships to stop them getting near the 45's in my example and could/would germany bankrupt itself to protect a spain that attacked a sovereign territory?

Ah yes, the British public would be all for it all right, probably to go to war with America too now that the shackles of the EU are gone, time for Britain to show those damned Yankees whose the real boss ! It would be Germany/EU causing an international dumping of the pound disastrously for Britain like the Suez crisis, try reading up on it

sparky42 wrote: »

Who the Feck suggested nuking anyone? Hell the SSN's don't even carry nukes you muppet. I gave you examples of the significant difference in capabilities, and again for your sneers about the UK forces, Spains are WORSE!

An SSN is a nuclear-powered general-purpose attack submarine. SSN is the US Navy hull classification symbol for such vessels with the SS denoting a submarine and the N denotes nuclear power. Well I'm sure the Spanish aren't sh!tting their pants afraid of an all out war with the Brits, but in fairness the Spanish don't need to turn to the Americans every few years like the British do when they get themselves in over their heads.

sparky42

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

An SSN is a nuclear-powered general-purpose attack submarine. SSN is the US Navy hull classification symbol for such vessels with the SS denoting a submarine and the N denotes nuclear power. Well I'm sure the Spanish aren't sh!tting their pants afraid of an all out war with the Brits, but in fairness the Spanish don't need to turn to the Americans every few years like the British do when they get themselves in over their heads.

Yes SSN is the classification for Attack subs which DON'T carry nuclear weapons in UK service, SSBN's are the nuclear boats, so your post about "nuking Spain" was utterly pointless and wrong.

Again you are missing/avoiding the point, the British Forces have far more active combat experience than Spanish forces and are in a better state than the Spanish are.

Drop the nationalistic nonsense and actually deal with reality perhaps.

Victor

sparky42 wrote: »

Who the Feck suggested nuking anyone?

I did.

sparky42 wrote: »

Yes SSN is the classification for Attack subs which DON'T carry nuclear weapons in UK service, SSBN's are the nuclear boats, so your post about "nuking Spain" was utterly pointless and wrong.

"nuclear boat" is an ambiguous term and shouldn't be used.

Lemming

sparky42 wrote: »

Again you are missing/avoiding the point, the British Forces have far more active combat experience than Spanish forces and are in a better state than the Spanish are.

Drop the nationalistic nonsense and actually deal with reality perhaps.

Oh deary me ... and all of you are missing and/or avoiding the point so as to willy wave with little flags tied to ends. The point being missed is namely thus; Britain is not going to march and/or sail its military onto a two-way range with Spain over Gibraltar. In similar fashion, the Spanish would be exceedingly stupid to try it on regardless of outcome.

Seriously. HOW did this thread get past one page, never mind three pages? :-/