Britain to go to war with Spain over Gibraltar ?

Elemonator

The British wouldn't even have to leave their country. Launch missiles from the UK mainland targeting the Spanish Government and infrastructure and its all over.

gallag

Lemming wrote: »

Oh deary me ... and all of you are missing and/or avoiding the point so as to willy wave with little flags tied to ends. The point being missed is namely thus; Britain is not going to march and/or sail its military onto a two-way range with Spain over Gibraltar. In similar fashion, the Spanish would be exceedingly stupid to try it on regardless of outcome.

Seriously. HOW did this thread get past one page, never mind three pages? :-/

Why so serious? Some people like playing armchair General, you don't have to but the comparison of different countries military's is a reasonably natural conversation to have on a military forum.

gallag

Elemonator wrote: »

The British wouldn't even have to leave their country. Launch missiles from the UK mainland targeting the Spanish Government and infrastructure and its all over.

What missiles? Tomahawk? It could just about have the range but are they not a bit slow? Could the Spanish f100 aaw knock them out?

sparky42

gallag wrote: »

What missiles? Tomahawk? It could just about have the range but are they not a bit slow? Could the Spanish f100 aaw knock them out?

If they were in the correct position they would have a chance, the other point would be the UK has a nominal load of about 100 at any given time, not nearly enough to "cripple" a Developed Nation.

Jawgap

Elemonator wrote: »

The British wouldn't even have to leave their country. Launch missiles from the UK mainland targeting the Spanish Government and infrastructure and its all over.

Couldn't the same be said of the Spanish?

Fly up to just off the coast of Brittany and let go with their few dozen Taurus cruise missiles and then turnaround and be back for tapas and wine in the afternoon?

gallag

Jawgap wrote: »

Couldn't the same be said of the Spanish?

Fly up to just off the coast of Brittany and let go with their few dozen Taurus cruise missiles and then turnaround and be back for tapas and wine in the afternoon?

I was just googling the specs of the Taurus there and it got me thinking, how likely is it that the specs we read online are actually near true? Surely knowing range/speed etc is half the battle in countering the weapons? Take the tomohawk, 550mph? Is it heck I reckon, hell a spitfire could shoot that down! That's probably the minimum speed for something of that shape to maintain stable flight! Or is it just to big a secret to keep and I am wrong? They do manage to keep the exact range and speed of most ships unknown, usually estimates on spec pages.

tac foley

gallag wrote: »

I was just googling the specs of the Taurus there and it got me thinking, how likely is it that the specs we read online are actually near true? Surely knowing range/speed etc is half the battle in countering the weapons? Take the tomohawk, 550mph? Is it heck I reckon, hell a spitfire could shoot that down! That's probably the minimum speed for something of that shape to maintain stable flight! Or is it just to big a secret to keep and I am wrong? They do manage to keep the exact range and speed of most ships unknown, usually estimates on spec pages.

You could always ask the Syrians how many THEY managed to shoot down in the last 24 hours.....

tac

sparky42

gallag wrote: »

I was just googling the specs of the Taurus there and it got me thinking, how likely is it that the specs we read online are actually near true? Surely knowing range/speed etc is half the battle in countering the weapons? Take the tomohawk, 550mph? Is it heck I reckon, hell a spitfire could shoot that down! That's probably the minimum speed for something of that shape to maintain stable flight! Or is it just to big a secret to keep and I am wrong? They do manage to keep the exact range and speed of most ships unknown, usually estimates on spec pages.

I think Cruise Missiles do come under Cold War Arms treaties so their specs have to be fairly known (and bare in mind the Tomahawk is fairly old by now even with upgrades), as to the top speed, yeah I'd say that's accurate, it's certainly not a supersonic one.

That doesn't mean there aren't games played with specs, for example the USN has had the exact same rated dive depth for all it's nuclear subs since their first one, even though the material sciences have progressed.

riggsfitz

And while all this is going on on the west side of Europe, with NATO's attention being distracted, the Russian take the east side. ☺

Jawgap

I think the Brits' chances just improved a notch :D:D

https://twitter.com/JMESPARCIA/status/850088123858079744

gallag

tac foley wrote: »

You could always ask the Syrians how many THEY managed to shoot down in the last 24 hours.....

tac

What anti-air capability do the Syrians possess? I know the Russians have their systems there but I would assume political reasons as to why that was not used? I think on paper anyway the s-300 Would easily dispatch tomohawks?

Jawgap

gallag wrote: »

What anti-air capability do the Syrians possess? I know the Russians have their systems there but I would assume political reasons as to why that was not used? I think on paper anyway the s-300 Would easily dispatch tomohawks?

Well, if you can believe the reports some of the TLAMs flew right through the missile engagement zone of the S-400 battery the Ruskies parked at Latakia to protect that airfield while they used it, without being engaged. Either they couldn't see them or they were just 'happy' to let them fly on without engaging them.

It also seems (again, if you can believe the reports) that the Russians were given advanced warning of the strike which is why fewer aircraft were on the base that usual when the missiles arrived.

Also, the Russians are saying 'only' 23 strikes were recorded while the Yanks are saying they launched 59 missiles - which means, obviously enough, some didn't make it. there's a possibility some were brought down by S-300 batteries near Tartous - but it seems no one is claiming to have hit anything, yet.

Stars and Stripes

sparky42 wrote: »

Yes SSN is the classification for Attack subs which DON'T carry nuclear weapons in UK service, SSBN's are the nuclear boats, so your post about "nuking Spain" was utterly pointless and wrong.

Again you are missing/avoiding the point, the British Forces have far more active combat experience than Spanish forces and are in a better state than the Spanish are.

Drop the nationalistic nonsense and actually deal with reality perhaps.

Your the one who brought in SSN to try and be clever but are now claiming to be on about SSBN's eh boyo ! But I stand by my comment as to what does this say about the British establishment and their grandiose sense of power when they're just a secondary power in Europe and a third rate in the world. A grandiose sense of power that a few Brit/unionist bullsh!tters on here who don't actually deal with reality on topics, they seem to think all they have to do on a discussion is say "well the British this" as if that should be the unquestionable end of discussion as no one can better the Brits 'expertise' !!

Nor have you ever commented on the very obvious scenario that Britain is already in more than enough trouble with Brexit (but that of course would be conceding Britain isn't the global superpower like you try to pretend), any threats military or economic inferred over Spain would go down like a lead balloon in Brussels. You don't want Frau Merkel starting a Suez crisis run to crash the pound for starters, doubt if the British navy, airforce and army would be too pleased if they heard "well sorry chaps, the economy crashed and we have no wages for you at the moment, but carry on fighting Johnny Foreigner for wee Gibraltar's sake"

ohnonotgmail

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Your the one who brought in SSN to try and be clever but are now claiming to be on about SSBN's eh boyo ! Also in your earleir reply's you mentioned Howard just as a tory politician while leaving out his very senior rank as a ex rear admiral as part of your deflection, but I stand by my comment as to what does this say about the British establishment and their grandiose sense of power when they're just a secondary power in Europe and a third rate in the world. A grandiose sense of power that a few Brit/unionist bullsh!tters on here who don't actually deal with reality on topics, they seem to think all they have to do on a discussion is say "well the British this" as if that should be the unquestionable end of discussion as no one can better the Brits 'expertise' !!

Nor have you ever commented on the very obvious scenario that Britain is already in more than enough trouble with Brexit (but that of course would be conceding Britain isn't the global superpower like you try to pretend), any threats military or economic inferred over Spain would go down like a lead balloon in Brussels. You don't want Frau Merkel starting a Suez crisis run to crash the pound for starters, doubt if the British navy, airforce and army would be too pleased if they heard "well sorry chaps, the economy crashed and we have no wages for you at the moment, but carry on fighting Johnny Foreigner for wee Gibraltar's sake"

You need to go back and read the article properly. Michael Howard was a barrister before he became a politician. He has never served. Chris Parry is the retired RN Rear Admiral mentioned in the article.

Stars and Stripes

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You need to go back and read the article properly. Michael Howard was a barrister before he became a politician. He has never served. Chris Parry is the retired RN Rear Admiral mentioned in the article.

Your right it was this d!ckhead Rear-Admiral Chris Parry and apparently a former director of operational capability at the UK Ministry of Defence. Strengthens my argument about the grandiose mindset of the Brit establishment though OP link not working at the moment but this one is anyway -

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/787061/britain-could-cripple-spain-rear-admiral-chris-parry-gibraltar-royal-navy-commander

Jawgap

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

........

Nor have you ever commented on the very obvious scenario that Britain is already in more than enough trouble with Brexit (but that of course would be conceding Britain isn't the global superpower like you try to pretend), any threats military or economic inferred over Spain would go down like a lead balloon in Brussels. You don't want Frau Merkel starting a Suez crisis run to crash the pound for starters, doubt if the British navy, airforce and army would be too pleased if they heard "well sorry chaps, the economy crashed and we have no wages for you at the moment, but carry on fighting Johnny Foreigner for wee Gibraltar's sake"

How would that work then, Ted?

....only about a third of UK government debt is held externally, and not much of it by Germany.....and Merkel doesn't control monetary policy.....so it's difficult to see how she could "crash" the pound - she may be able to drive its value down by selling off the debt the Germans hold, but the BoE would be delighted to scoop that up at a discount, which would reduce their external debt and over a longer run beef up the economy by reducing the GDP/debt ratio.

Soros broke the pound by shorting it because its value was being artificially maintained in the ERM - as far as I know, sterling isn't being held at some artificial value so its difficult to see how anyone could 'crash' it?

gallag

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Your the one who brought in SSN to try and be clever but are now claiming to be on about SSBN's eh boyo ! But I stand by my comment as to what does this say about the British establishment and their grandiose sense of power when they're just a secondary power in Europe and a third rate in the world. A grandiose sense of power that a few Brit/unionist bullsh!tters on here who don't actually deal with reality on topics, they seem to think all they have to do on a discussion is say "well the British this" as if that should be the unquestionable end of discussion as no one can better the Brits 'expertise' !!

Nor have you ever commented on the very obvious scenario that Britain is already in more than enough trouble with Brexit (but that of course would be conceding Britain isn't the global superpower like you try to pretend), any threats military or economic inferred over Spain would go down like a lead balloon in Brussels. You don't want Frau Merkel starting a Suez crisis run to crash the pound for starters, doubt if the British navy, airforce and army would be too pleased if they heard "well sorry chaps, the economy crashed and we have no wages for you at the moment, but carry on fighting Johnny Foreigner for wee Gibraltar's sake"

why are you so consumed by the British? And ill bite, secondary power in europe?

sparky42

gallag wrote: »

why are you so consumed by the British? And ill bite, secondary power in europe?

He's a bit special and divorced from reality, I'm not certain how any nuclear power is a "secondary one" even NK with their limited arsenal have shot up the global attention now that they have nukes. The UK is one of 2 in Europe with them, so yeah not secondary in Europe. Not too mention it's still a G8 nation, one of the largest and most experienced militaries in Europe as things stand.

Outside of Trolls and idiots I'm not sure how any of that can be argued.

Stars and Stripes

Jawgap wrote: »

How would that work then, Ted?

....only about a third of UK government debt is held externally, and not much of it by Germany.....and Merkel doesn't control monetary policy.....so it's difficult to see how she could "crash" the pound - she may be able to drive its value down by selling off the debt the Germans hold, but the BoE would be delighted to scoop that up at a discount, which would reduce their external debt and over a longer run beef up the economy by reducing the GDP/debt ratio.

Soros broke the pound by shorting it because its value was being artificially maintained in the ERM - as far as I know, sterling isn't being held at some artificial value so its difficult to see how anyone could 'crash' it?

Getting a bit off topic but anyway, Frau Merkel and ze Germans aren't running EU monetary policy - tell that one to Greece.

sparky42 wrote: »

He's a bit special and divorced from reality, I'm not certain how any nuclear power is a "secondary one" even NK with their limited arsenal have shot up the global attention now that they have nukes. The UK is one of 2 in Europe with them, so yeah not secondary in Europe. Not too mention it's still a G8 nation, one of the largest and most experienced militaries in Europe as things stand.

Outside of Trolls and idiots I'm not sure how any of that can be argued.

If anyone is divorced from reality it's that clown of a rear admiral and the fan club who believe that bullsh!t. But it's always good to have a pop at the auld enemy. So the UK could unilaterally do as it likes without a nod from Uncle Sam - get real, they even have to hope that America supports them in the statement on Gibraltar. But at least you have something in common with NK, a delusional ruling class.

ohnonotgmail

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Getting a bit off topic but anyway, Frau Merkel and ze Germans aren't running EU monetary policy - tell that one to Greece.

I'm not sure you quite understand what monetary policy is. Germany and Greece use the same monetary system.

Stars and Stripes

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'm not sure you quite understand what monetary policy is. Germany and Greece use the same monetary system.

Jesus :rolleyes:, and the Eurozone been 5 or 6 times larger could undermine Britain very, very seriously financially if it declared war on Spain, read up about Sterling and the Suez crisis on the damage it could do.

ohnonotgmail

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Jesus :rolleyes:, and the Eurozone been 5 or 6 times larger could undermine Britain very, very seriously financially if it declared war on Spain, read up about Sterling and the Suez crisis on the damage it could do.

and that has what, exactly, to do with germany and greece?

Jawgap

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Getting a bit off topic but anyway, Frau Merkel and ze Germans aren't running EU monetary policy - tell that one to Greece.

........

No, they're not......and even if they were, what happened in Greece just showed how limited Euro members are in their capacity to influence currency rates.....

Btw, looking at the OECD database the U.K. has a net FDI inflow of €5.6 billion from Germany and €2.1 billion in Spanish FDI assets (but a net outflow of €113m) - which probably would go a long way to explaining why Merkel wouldn't shoot her economy in the foot by trashing the pound......and why the UK wouldn't administer a self-inflicted economic dick punch by getting into a scrap over Gibraltar.

tac foley

@Jawgap and others - you're not learning, friends, even now. If you were to post something about an explosion in a distant galaxy discovered by a British astronomer, our 'stars and stripes' would find a way to blame it on the British government, or population.

He

is

not

interested

in

anything

except

pouring

sh*te

on

the

Brits.

Gottit?

tac

Stars and Stripes

Looking at some interesting stuff about Spain's Defense Forces, didn't know they have a Spanish Legion formed in 1835 modeled on the French Foreign Legion, the majority of its members were Spaniards and foreigners mostly consisted of Spanish speakers from Central and South America and some from other parts of Europe. Seen quite a bit of action down the years, the Spanish Civil War in particular of course. Today it consists of about 5,000 soldiers, it's most recent deployments, took part in the Iraq War in Najaf, in 2005 deployed in Afghanistan, Southern Lebanon as part of United Nations' Operation.

http://www.mercenary-wars.net/elite-units/spanish-legion.html

Fratton Fred

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Jesus :rolleyes:, and the Eurozone been 5 or 6 times larger could undermine Britain very, very seriously financially if it declared war on Spain, read up about Sterling and the Suez crisis on the damage it could do.

why would Britain declare war on Spain?

the only way this bizarre scenario is going to come to fruition is if the Spanish invade Gibraltar, which would not be supported by any other country in Europe.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

why would Britain declare war on Spain?

the only way this bizarre scenario is going to come to fruition is if the Spanish invade Gibraltar, which would not be supported by any other country in Europe.

Well in fairness it's not just the Brits who are engaging in jingoism. The Spanish aren't ones to beat around the bush either.

An important point to remember is that the Spanish feel as strongly about it as the British do. It's an island in some sense of the word but you can actually walk into the Spainish mainland from it. If you're a British person in Spain it will be brought up at every oppertunity (not saying that's right). The Spanish are extremely nationalistic and although we've had a few cretins talk about war in Britain it's the general dialogue in a lot of Spanish quarters.

I don't see them invading but I do see them making life in Gibraltar very difficult indeed. That might make things a lot worse.

steddyeddy

gallag wrote: »

I was just googling the specs of the Taurus there and it got me thinking, how likely is it that the specs we read online are actually near true? Surely knowing range/speed etc is half the battle in countering the weapons? Take the tomohawk, 550mph? Is it heck I reckon, hell a spitfire could shoot that down! That's probably the minimum speed for something of that shape to maintain stable flight! Or is it just to big a secret to keep and I am wrong? They do manage to keep the exact range and speed of most ships unknown, usually estimates on spec pages.

I can't see other EU nations just sitting back TBH. Even if France supply flying fish again.

tac foley

The adjoining urban conurbation to Gibraltar has 55% unemployment. Gibraltar has less than 2%.

Much of the workforce in Gibraltar comes through the border every day to earn money that is just not around in Spain.

If the Spaniards cut that off access to good jobs and steady wages , they would be p*ssing in their own sombreros bigtime.

tac

Stars and Stripes

tac foley wrote: »

The adjoining urban conurbation to Gibraltar has 55% unemployment. Gibraltar has less than 2%.

Much of the workforce in Gibraltar comes through the border every day to earn money that is just not around in Spain.

If the Spaniards cut that off access to good jobs and steady wages , they would be p*ssing in their own sombreros bigtime.

tac

A case of the flea wagging the tail Tac ? I'd doubt if Spain and it's military are quaking in their boots I'd imagine that Gibraltar's 'economy' would consist of little more than jobs dealing with British govt red tape, tourism (how will all those tourists access the rock if the Spanish govt cuts it off ? ) and of course dodgy off shore banks to facilitate tax cheating and money laundering.

As for Spain's jobless rate, it's fallen to a seven-year low, though the Spanish army wouldn't be preparing invasion plans yet Tac.
https://www.thelocal.es/20170126/good-news-spains-jobless-rate-just-fell-to-a-seven-year-low