Leapcard not taking Non-Irish Bank accounts for Auto Top Up Feature by Direct Debit

Bhangraman

Received basically the same reply from Solvit France as Bob24, here it is google translated from the original French:

Hello sir,

We informed your complaint well and then forwarded it to our Irish counterparts who just came to us on the processing status of your case.

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to bring you any positive news. Despite all the efforts made by our Irish counterparts and by the authority concerned to find a solution to your difficulties, the competent authority is not in a position to give us a clear calendar indication on the resolution of this problem.

Our Irish counterparts will continue to work on this issue, especially since you are not the only one in this situation (other complaints are reported to the SOLVIT network), but as indicated, the problem can not be solved in immediately. Our Irish counterparts have thus wished to close your SOLVIT file as an unsolved file, but continue to work on this structural problem.

I would like to give you some milestones when I receive them from SOLVIT Ireland, but we have not been able to solve your case, to our great regret.

Best regards,

Heike Otterbein

Bob24

Bhangraman wrote: »

Received basically the same reply from Solvit France as Bob24, here it is google translated from the original French:

Maybe remove the name of the contact for their privacy? (but exact same person and message as I got FYI)

ED E

Gotta love how the EU has constructed a strong structured process for complaint resolution and yet Irish quangos keep up with their shoulder shrugging.

Great work lads, hopefully somebody in a position to will act soon.

Bob24

ED E wrote: »

Gotta love how the EU has constructed a strong structured process for complaint resolution and yet Irish quangos keep up with their shoulder shrugging.

Great work lads, hopefully somebody in a position to will act soon.

I still reserve my judgement waiting for further actions, but to date if the only thing they can do is forward an email from the infringing authority 10 weeks after the complaint saying the issue won't be fixed I wouldn't call it a strong process. I understand Solvit is more a network of national government officials who remind each other's gouvernement of their duties related to EU law, but if at they end if the day it is only based on good will and nothing else happens when a rogue gouvernement body or public organisation refuses to complain, it greatly reduces its use.

I am not saying for a second the attitude if the NTA, but if there is nothing happening to forecefully enforce the regulation it is understandable that some gouvernement bodies will ignore Solvit requests.

Yggr of Asgard

Did anybody who complained to the EU Commission get any feedback from them?

I still have no update from them despite trying to chase it now twice. Looks like they don't react to me.

Bob24

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

I still have no update from them despite trying to chase it now twice. Looks like they don't react to me.

I didn't complain to the EC directly, but I asked the French Solvit contact if either Solivit as a group or the French governement could assist in escalating this. And they ignored me email :-s (they didn't even bother replying to say no)

I am not very impressed I have to say ...

Yggr of Asgard

I had a refund pending (due to a multi tickets disappearing without any reason) and provided them with my bunq account IBAN as the form claimed they can make credits to any SEPA account.

Got confirmation that the payment will be made last week Tuesday and that it will take 3 days for it to reach my account.

Today got an e-mail telling me that my account has not passed pre-validation before it is submitted to their bank and that I need to provide them with my bank account details again.

Looks like they can't deal with SEPA transfers either and need an Irish bank account for that as well.

Let's see what they say when they try it again.

Yggr of Asgard

A whopping 2 month after I wrote to the commission they finally came back.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email regarding the SEPA Regulation and its application in Ireland.
We will investigate your case further and suggest writing to the Republic of Ireland for information on this issue. This is the usual process between the European Commission and Member States that would not be fully applying EU law.
Could you send us any document in your possession that proves that NTA/LEAP is not allowing foreign EU IBANs (in particular exchanges of letters with NTA and CCPC since the 1st of August 2014)? Would you allow us to use these documents in our exchanges with the Republic of Ireland?

We thank you in advance for your help.
Best regards,

FISMA D3

Seriously, I wrote a clear complaint with links to the relevant webpages where it clearly states that only Irish Accounts can be used and I included all final answers (Leapcard, NTA, SOLVIT) to my complaint and I get this answer after 2 month.

Clearly there is no interest in getting this addressed.

Yggr of Asgard

Looks like my local MEP is a member of the Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs which is supposed to have oversight (as much as the European parliament thinks it has) over the DG.

So I wrote to him for help with no real hope, but just to see what he says.

I know I'm fighting a useless fight and soon Revenue is going to audit me or INIS is going to ask me to leave the country but at this point it's a matter of principle.

Bob24

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Clearly there is no interest in getting this addressed.

Basically yes - and the NTA knows it.

user1842

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email regarding the SEPA Regulation and its application in Ireland.
We will investigate your case further and suggest writing to the Republic of Ireland for information on this issue. This is the usual process between the European Commission and Member States that would not be fully applying EU law.
Could you send us any document in your possession that proves that NTA/LEAP is not allowing foreign EU IBANs (in particular exchanges of letters with NTA and CCPC since the 1st of August 2014)? Would you allow us to use these documents in our exchanges with the Republic of Ireland?

We thank you in advance for your help.
Best regards,

FISMA D3

This is actually a very good sign. It means the Commission is looking to take action but needs more proof. They ask for letters not emails and ask can they use them to prove lack of compliance.

It is obvious that Ireland is saying they are fully compliant and now the Commission needs physical proof that they are not.

Unfortunately emails probably are not good enough here. If the Commission fines Ireland, it will be a big deal especially in the current climate (Brexit etc) and they need 100% proof that there has been a breach.

If you don't have a letter correspondence I would suggest to save all the emails in one PDF document and send that to them telling them they can use it.

I know it is a pain but it will be worth it in the end.

Yggr of Asgard

All the proof you need is here:

https://about.leapcard.ie/autotop-up

Note: Your bank account must be a Republic of Ireland account

No amount of endless communication with Leap/NTA/CCPC/SOLVIT will proof the problem as quickly as a simple look at the official website.

Bob24

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

All the proof you need is here:

https://about.leapcard.ie/autotop-up



No amount of endless communication with Leap/NTA/CCPC/SOLVIT will proof the problem as quickly as a simple look at the official website.

Yes - but *if* they actually want to do something (which like you I doubt), I guess having proof that this has been ongoing for years and the NTA did nothing while being aware of their non-compliance is handy to have.

I suspect if the EC was to come for them the NTA would play dumb and behave as if it was a new issue asking for delays to fix it. Being able to put them back in place with evidence that they are full of themselves probably wouldn't make any difference from a legal point of view but might change the tone of the discussion.

user1842

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

All the proof you need is here:

https://about.leapcard.ie/autotop-up



No amount of endless communication with Leap/NTA/CCPC/SOLVIT will proof the problem as quickly as a simple look at the official website.

Ok, I will also complain to the Commission on this one.

Yggr of Asgard

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes - but *if* they actually want to do something (which like you I doubt), I guess having proof that this has been ongoing for years and the NTA did nothing while being aware of their non-compliance is handy to have.

I suspect if the EC was to come for them the NTA would play dumb and behave as if it was a new issue asking for delays to fix it. Being able to put them back in place with evidence that they are full of themselves probably wouldn't make any difference from a legal point of view but might change the tone of the discussion.

I'm with you on the if part, I'm not sure that they actually want to use the powers they have. It's so much easier to go after Alphabet / Apple than to do something for a small section of people who actually enjoy being European and want to use cross border service.

I have updated them with the full pdf version of my correspondence including timelines, so maybe they will do something.

user1842 wrote: »

Ok, I will also complain to the Commission on this one.

Thank you, I think the more people are complaining the better the chances that the NTA finally "finds" the funds required to get this addressed.

If the amount needed to fix it is smaller than the amount of a potential fine than for sure they are going to fix it.

You might want to use this e-mail address: FISMA-D3@ec.europa.eu That is the one they told me to use as reply address, might be faster than the DG ones.

Also if you want to maybe say this is in support of my case Ares(2017)3832653 that maybe might help too.

user1842

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

You might want to use this e-mail address: FISMA-D3@ec.europa.eu That is the one they told me to use as reply address, might be faster than the DG ones.

Also if you want to maybe say this is in support of my case Ares(2017)3832653 that maybe might help too.

Cheers, I might have a more direct line and thanks for pointing out the clear breach of the Regulation 260/2012 on https://about.leapcard.ie/autotop-up:

Note – You will be asked to enter your bank account details including BIC and IBAN; Note: Your bank account must be a Republic of Ireland account where only one signatory is required, and the bank account must accept Direct Debits.

The above is totally unacceptable in my view.

I will also try and get a contact point in the CCPC to see what is going on.

Yggr of Asgard

Would you believe it, today I got an update from the EU in reference to my last update I send to them on 1 August.

Here the update:

I apologise for the delay in replying to you.

You are correct that the information is clearly stated on their webpage.

I have therefore contacted the CCPC directly to inform them of the issue and to insist that they solve it in order to avoid the European Commission having to launch an infringement procedure against the Republic of Ireland.

They have asked me to send them a description of the issue in writing via e-mail, which I just did.

I hope to be able to give you positive news soon.

Wow... Month later and we are back to the CCPC....

Bob24

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Wow... Month later and we are back to the CCPC....

Yes ... I don’t know if it is good or bad news ;-)

But fair play to you for not letting go!

My latest email to French solvit asking to escalate to the EC was ignored and it kind of got me to give up (and lose any confidence in enforcement of EU regulations for individuals).

Yggr of Asgard

I don't think that anything will come out of this even if they would consider enforcement actions, by the time anything meaningful would happen against the NTA the direct debit function won't exist anymore because we all pay with the mandatory chip the government has implemented in us as replacement for our PPS cards.

But seriously speaking for me it's a matter of principle at this point, I'm topping up my card with the App on Android so it's relatively simple to do that, but I would prefer an automatic top up option to ensure I don't run out of credit.

user1842

This response from the Commission is very good news. They have officially contacted the CCPC to highlight the breach. The CCPC have to act now and if they don't they will be an enforcement action against Ireland which is a big deal.

You also may what to highlight the issue to the media, Conor Pope or Charlie Weston come to mind as this reduces bank competition in Ireland and thus raises account charges.

ED E

Yggr of Asgard

And here the latest update:

I contact you with a quick update of your case.
It seems that the CCPC only replies in quite general terms. I have not received any commitment that the issue will be solved.
I have now informed them that if the problem with LeapCard is not dealt with, the Commission will contact the Irish authorities directly to find out why their competent authority is unable to solve a breach of the SEPA Regulation.

I will keep you informed of the developments.

Looks like complaining to my MEP made some fire under the commission.

Yggr of Asgard

and here the latest update from the EU Commission:

After putting some pressure I am now in contact with the Head of Contact Management & Analysis at the CCPC.

Just before the end of the year I was informed that their Consumer Enforcement Division concluded that the NTA is not in compliance with art.9(2) of the SEPA Regulation. This was of course already clear.

Following their investigation, a letter was sent to the NTA with deadline 15 December 2017.

The NTA then acknowledged that they are in breach and informed the CCPC that they are working on a plan for the solution to the IBAN topup facility on the Leap card website.

As it is not the first time that the NTA promises to solve this issue, I have asked the CCPC to inform me about the deadline for the NTA to implement their solution and also asked confirmation whether a sanction will be imposed in case the NTA does not meet this deadline.

I will inform you once I receive more information.

nsa0bupkd3948x

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

and here the latest update from the EU Commission:

Fair play for sticking with this. I have to admit I gave up just before I went travelling and never chased up since.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Yggr of Asgard

It looks like the NTA is taking this serious now, I just spotted this on their website:

Note: It is currently only possible to specify an Irish bank account when setting up Auto Top-up. However, NTA is pleased to announce that we have been able to fund the final phase of the updates necessary to enable all customers with any SEPA compliant European bank account to sign up to Auto Top-Up. This enhanced feature will be implemented before the end of April 2018. In the meantime there are many other ways to top-up a Leap Card, including: using the NFC Top-Up app (for Android phones), or at a Leap Sales Agent, or at a Vending Machine at Irish Rail and Luas platforms.

Now it might just be up there to keep people quite but maybe it's really happening.

Fred Swanson

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user1842

Fair play for keeping the pressure on. It's great to see action on this.

It goes to show that one person can make a difference, well done.

Yggr of Asgard

Ladies and Gentlemen, it looks like they have managed to get this sorted.

All references to Irish only have been removed and replaced by SEPA compliant bank account.

Sign up seams to work for SEPA accounts, at least it behaved for me like it did. So I'm now waiting for the code on my bank account to confirm the setup.

Anybody else who wants to try and let us know?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.