Munster Team Talk Thread VI - Stander Up and Fight

troyzer

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Seems to be a lot of mitigating factors on there to allow Leinster their 5 fly halfs. Are you accepting Munster have mitigating factors also are also reducing their numbers for next season?

Also if you have any issues with who is deemed an outhalf take it up with Leinster rugby as that's how it's displayed on their official website.

I'll awaited a detailed review in last season's numbers when Mole covers it in another article.

What are the Munster mitigating factors?

Leinster's website actually has Noel Reid as a fly half/centre. I just checked.

Cookiemunster

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

troyzer wrote: »

What are the Munster mitigating factors?

Leinster's website actually has Noel Reid as a fly half/centre. I just checked.

And that's what TB is too.

troyzer

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And that's what TB is too.

Right, so he could be the third man.

So Carbery, Hanrahan and TB. Get rid of Johnston then.

Eod100

troyzer wrote: »

Right, so he could be the third man.

So Carbery, Hanrahan and TB. Get rid of Johnston then.

Johnston has signed a contract to 2020 afaik. With Carbery in RWC squad then resting after then 6N squad, don't think 3 OHs is loads. Especially with JJ and TB's injury history

troyzer

Eod100 wrote: »

Johnston has signed a contract to 2020 afaik. With Carbery in RWC squad then resting after then 6N squad, don't think 3 OHs is loads. Especially with JJ and TB's injury history

Sexton and possibly Byrne will be in the world cup squad as well. Leinster still only have three outhalves.

And I know it's going to sound like I'm just a Leinster fan bashing Munster but Munster are the ONLY province who have so many bodies at half back.

Buer

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

TB has played solely at centre this season and hasn't signed up yet. Keatley has been released. Mathewson will be on his bike in 6 weeks. Duncan Williams is probably gone in 4 months.

They're clearly moving people on but if they want to have a large number of players at halfback, so what? They've changed coaches and guys who were signed up under a previous coach may not be wanted now but still have time on their deals. It's not like it's a long term situation.

aloooof

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

Buer wrote: »

TB has played solely at centre this season and hasn't signed up yet. Keatley has been released. Mathewson will be on his bike in 6 weeks. Duncan Williams is probably gone in 4 months.

They're clearly moving people on but if they want to have a large number of players at halfback, so what? They've changed coaches and guys who were signed up under a previous coach may not be wanted now but still have time on their deals. It's not like it's a long term situation.

Add to that Hart is likely gone at the end of the season. We've been here before. They're doing exactly what people are calling for them to do. Yet are still drawing criticism from some quarters.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

Add to that Hart is likely gone at the end of the season. We've been here before. They're doing exactly what people are calling for them to do. Yet are still drawing criticism from some quarters.

I agree that's what Munster are looking to do. My criticism was aimed at some people on this thread who seem to think Munster should keep everybody.

slingerz

I hope Munster keep hold of Mathewson. I would see McCarthy/Cronin as development with Craig Casey in the academy. Having a capable replacement for Murray is key for Munster & Ireland. Mathewson allows you to not flog Murray completely.

Halfbacks next year should be Murray, Mathewson, McCarthy, Cronin with Carbery, Hanarahan, Johnston & Healy

Kirk Van Houten

troyzer wrote: »

What are the Munster mitigating factors?

Leinster's website actually has Noel Reid as a fly half/centre. I just checked.

congratulations on checking some facts. Munster have both TB and JJ listed as Fly Half/Centre as well but i don't recall you mentioning that. Did the Mole not cover it in his article?

Last season Munster had 4 fly halves on the books - Tyler, JJ, Keatley and Bill Johnson. The addition of the 5th fly half Carberry was effectively IRFU instructed to allow Schmidt ensure he had his back up 10 getting as much game time as possible. The move was completed well after all squad contracts had been done.

Tyler had been injured pretty much from October 2017 to November 2018 meaning Munster only had three out halfs last season. Since his return he has played pretty much exclusively at 12 where he was officially signed as part of the IRFU criteria.

A lot of the perceived issues with Munster squads relate to the high turnover of head coaches and timing of appointments for the last number of years. Coaches are inheriting players from previous regimes and need time to assess and then cull as required. This is being done and Keatley is a prime example. Hart will follow suit as will Taute.

You have little interest in looking at the reasoning behind this or even looking at what has happened in other provinces in the very recent past so not sure the above will actually mean much to you in your attempts at petty provincial points scoring.

Buer

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

With McCarthy coming in, I'd be surprised if Munster were allowed keep Mathewson given his age, position and taking up a NIQ spot. Perhaps a 1 year deal to help develop McCarthy but even that might be unlikely.

If McCarthy is going to develop at all, it's pointless for him to move from 3rd choice at Leinster to 3rd choice at Munster where he'd be behind an even better Irish/Kiwi duo.

Cronin is already signed up until 2021. I don't think he'd have signed that if he knew McCarthy was coming as well as the possibility of Mathewson staying. It would be odd to commit the next few years of your life to being the likely 4th choice when you're 26.

thomond2006

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

Casey starting for the U20s is a sign that perhaps he can step up to the dirtracker team shortly. The RWC however means Munster might only get 10-12 appearances out of Murray.

Mathewson has been absolutely brilliant. If McCarthy wasn't signed then I would have been delighted to see him retained. Mathewson being NIE isn't really an issue as only Cloete and Botha are NIEs next season.

Buer

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

thomond2006 wrote: »

Casey starting for the U20s is a sign that perhaps he can step up to the dirtracker team shortly. The RWC however means Munster might only get 10-12 apoearances out of Murray.

Mathewson has been absolutely brilliant. If McCarthy wasn't signed then I would have been delighted to see him retained.

Not to be overly harsh, but you're getting a massive downgrade at back up if Mathewson is released. If Munster had a crunch game tomorrow and had to choose between McCarthy and Williams, I wouldn't even have to think before giving Williams the nod.

McCarthy will improve with game time and hopefully reach some potential through working alongside Murray but he has a lot of development to do still.

troyzer

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

congratulations on checking some facts. Munster have both TB and JJ listed as Fly Half/Centre as well but i don't recall you mentioning that. Did the Mole not cover it in his article?

Last season Munster had 4 fly halves on the books - Tyler, JJ, Keatley and Bill Johnson. The addition of the 5th fly half Carberry was effectively IRFU instructed to allow Schmidt ensure he had his back up 10 getting as much game time as possible. The move was completed well after all squad contracts had been done.

Tyler had been injured pretty much from October 2017 to November 2018 meaning Munster only had three out halfs last season. Since his return he has played pretty much exclusively at 12 where he was officially signed as part of the IRFU criteria.

A lot of the perceived issues with Munster squads relate to the high turnover of head coaches and timing of appointments for the last number of years. Coaches are inheriting players from previous regimes and need time to assess and then cull as required. This is being done and Keatley is a prime example. Hart will follow suit as will Taute.

You have little interest in looking at the reasoning behind this or even looking at what has happened in other provinces in the very recent past so not sure the above will actually mean much to you in your attempts at petty provincial points scoring.

I'm not making petty provincial points. I already said that Munster is the outlier here. It's not just from a Leinster perspective. All three of the provinces outside of Munster have adopted this approach of six senior halfbacks, at least one of which can also cover other positions. Until last week, Munster had ten. And not all of it is inherited, since JVG came in he signed Mathewson. He didn't have to. There wasn't such an injury crisis that meant Munster literally had nobody to play at 9.

JJ is a fly half who can play centre and Noel Reid and TB are both centres who can play fly half.

It sounds like we agree that going forward, Munster will probably right the ship. All I'm saying is that as it stands, Munster have far too many on the books and there are people on here who want it to stay that way.

But if you agree with me that some of them have to go then why are we arguing?

thomond2006

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

Buer wrote: »

Not to be overly harsh, but you're getting a massive downgrade at back up if Mathewson is released. If Munster had a crunch game tomorrow and had to choose between McCarthy and Williams, I wouldn't even have to think before giving Williams the nod.

McCarthy will improve with game time and hopefully reach some potential through working alongside Murray but he has a lot of development to do still.

Mathewson's performances make it surprising that he was even available in the first place. He doesn't look like a player that has been a journeyman for the last few years.
If Munster could somehow keep him for another season I would be thrilled. Since the provinces have all got IE players starting along with a few IE backups (Blade, Shanahan and JGP), the argument against keeping Mathewson doesn't hold as much weight.

Cookiemunster

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

troyzer wrote: »

I agree that's what Munster are looking to do. My criticism was aimed at some people on this thread who seem to think Munster should keep everybody.

Quote any poster who has said that.

BoardAtWork

Buer wrote: »

With McCarthy coming in, I'd be surprised if Munster were allowed keep Mathewson given his age, position and taking up a NIQ spot. Perhaps a 1 year deal to help develop McCarthy but even that might be unlikely.

If McCarthy is going to develop at all, it's pointless for him to move from 3rd choice at Leinster to 3rd choice at Munster where he'd be behind an even better Irish/Kiwi duo.

Cronin is already signed up until 2021. I don't think he'd have signed that if he knew McCarthy was coming as well as the possibility of Mathewson staying. It would be odd to commit the next few years of your life to being the likely 4th choice when you're 26.

I'd love if Munster were allowed to keep Matthewson, but I doubt the IRFU will allow it. He's been a brilliant signing; comfortably the second best 9 on the island imo.

troyzer

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Quote any poster who has said that.

See below.

who_me wrote: »

Seems a bit light for me. Carbery will be away/rested a fair bit in the season, so at those periods we'll be down to 2 choices - and of those Johnston is still fairly inexperienced - and we'd be in trouble with just one injury.

And - even though I think JJ can be a great player - I'm still not convinced about him as a 10. IMO he always seems to play best when another 10 is on and he switches to centre or fullback.

I'd prefer to keep Bleyendaal for another season if possible, and give Johnston more gametime over the year before letting Tyler go.

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Carbery will start all the important games if fit.
I would like to see Johnston as backup for Carbery and getting a lot of game time next season, with Scannell and Bleyendaal rotating at 12, and with Hanrahan and Haley rotating at 15.
Any injuries to Carbery and Johnston could see Hanrahan and Bleyendaal covering out-half then.
The unknown for me is what Bleyendaal is asking for, does he want game time at 10, or would he be happy playing more at 12, and is he looking for a lot of money so that Munster couldn't afford to keep him?
There's no doubt Bleyendaal is a useful player if we could hold on to him.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Id have 4 at a minimum and max of 3 with one who is in around national set up isnt enough when one injuries are so common etc.

thomond2006

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

Not one of the posts are saying Munster should have 9 senior halfbacks at the start of the season i.e. "keep everybody".

Cookiemunster

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

troyzer wrote: »

See below.

I'll remind you of your claim

troyzer wrote: »

I agree that's what Munster are looking to do. My criticism was aimed at some people on this thread who seem to think Munster should keep everybody.

Now come back to be with any poster who said that. Not people saying we should keep TB, or have four in one position.

thomond2006

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

It's clear to me at least that Munster are looking to shed players. Keatley and Fitzgerald were allowed to leave during the season. Hart is also set to leave (he was linked with Biarritz prior to Christmas). ROM, a solid squad player, is still un-signed and is probably 50:50 to remain. There is an effort to address field positions where there are too many numbers. DOC is also un-signed and likely gone, it's a shame that injuries ruined a promising career.

This is probably a discussion to re-start once we know the makeup of the 2019-20 squad.

Buer

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

thomond2006 wrote: »

Mathewson's performances make it surprising that he was even available in the first place. He doesn't look like a player that has been a journeyman for the last few years.

He's had more teams than hot dinners in the last few years. I suspect he knows he's in last chance saloon now and, if he doesn't want his career to end at 33, he better put in some serious performances.

Buer

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

Munster should keep everybody.

thomond2006

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

Buer wrote: »

Munster should keep everybody.

Can we keep you too Buer? Stay with us at Munster, sure we sign most of ye anyway!

Buer

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can we keep you too Buer? Stay with us at Munster, sure we sign most of ye anyway!

Never. It's not like I'm from Kildare.

thomond2006

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

Buer wrote: »

Never. It's not like I'm from Kildare.

I'll throw in a free turnip soup. C'mon Buer: TAKE THE SOUP.

troyzer

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'll remind you of your claim



Now come back to be with any poster who said that. Not people saying we should keep TB, or have four in one position.

TB is the only fly half out of contract at the end of the season. By saying you want to keep TB, you're talking about keeping all of your fly halves.

phog

troyzer wrote: »

See below.

Not one of those posters have said keep everyone.

So where are you getting that view from?

aloooof

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

troyzer wrote: »

TB is the only fly half out of contract at the end of the season. By saying you want to keep TB, you're talking about keeping all of your fly halves.

We had Keatley up until, y'know, yesterday.

Mickiemcfist

Buer wrote: »

He's had more teams than hot dinners in the last few years. I suspect he knows he's in last chance saloon now and, if he doesn't want his career to end at 33, he better put in some serious performances.

Which he has done, pretty much every time he's stepped on the pitch. TBH I'm hugely surprised he hasn't been picked up by another team while Munster sit on their hands, he's phenomenal IMO.

Cookiemunster

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

troyzer wrote: »

TB is the only fly half out of contract at the end of the season. By saying you want to keep TB, you're talking about keeping all of your fly halves.

You're moving some great big goal posts today. Until yesterday Ian Keatley was also on the books. You talked about Munster having 5 O/Hs. It was pointed out to you that according to their site so did Leinster last season. You then claimed that some were both O/H and center. It was then pointed out to you that so were some of Munsters. That didn't suit your argument so you then claimed we wanted to keep everyone even though it had been pointed out the players had been or are going to be released.

Where are you going to move them to next?

BoardAtWork

thomond2006 wrote: »

Not one of the posts are saying Munster should have 9 senior halfbacks at the start of the season i.e. "keep everybody".

Its also a different situation considering the year that's in it. The squad needs a little extra padding in a RWC year.

phog

Kelly Transport are running a bus from Limerick to Edinburgh for the S/F

€115 return including ferry.

Leaving Friday morning, ferry from Belfast, returning Saturday evening. Accommodation and match ticket are excluded.

Kirk Van Houten

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not making petty provincial points. I already said that Munster is the outlier here. It's not just from a Leinster perspective. All three of the provinces outside of Munster have adopted this approach of six senior halfbacks, at least one of which can also cover other positions. Until last week, Munster had ten. And not all of it is inherited, since JVG came in he signed Mathewson. He didn't have to. There wasn't such an injury crisis that meant Munster literally had nobody to play at 9.

JJ is a fly half who can play centre and Noel Reid and TB are both centres who can play fly half.

It sounds like we agree that going forward, Munster will probably right the ship. All I'm saying is that as it stands, Munster have far too many on the books and there are people on here who want it to stay that way.

But if you agree with me that some of them have to go then why are we arguing?

The bit in bold - you really should do some fact checking before making statements. Connacht have 8 half backs on the senior squad.

Also you seem to be using that number because its what Leinster have this season. What about last season were Leinster wrong to have 8 half backs and Nacewa on the books?

troyzer

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You're moving some great big goal posts today. Until yesterday Ian Keatley was also on the books. You talked about Munster having 5 O/Hs. It was pointed out to you that according to their site so did Leinster last season. You then claimed that some were both O/H and center. It was then pointed out to you that so were some of Munsters. That didn't suit your argument so you then claimed we wanted to keep everyone even though it had been pointed out the players had been or are going to be released.

Where are you going to move them to next?

Leinster had five players listed at outhalf. One of them isn't primarily an outhalf though (Reid), one of them never really played and was always going to get cut (Marsh) and one of them was being groomed for Fullback (Carbery).

Until yesterday, Munster also had five and if it goes the same way as Leinster (getting rid of two) I'd be happy enough. The signs are looking good.

Some people here clearly DO want to keep everyone currently playing outhalf at Munster. I've literally quoted them. Whereas it looks like I'm in agreement with some people here that TB will be getting the boot.

We don't actually disagree. My argument was mainly with those who think TB should be kept.

troyzer

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

The bit in bold - you really should do some fact checking before making statements. Connacht have 8 half backs on the senior squad.

Also you seem to be using that number because its what Leinster have this season. What about last season were Leinster wrong to have 8 half backs and Nacewa on the books?

Yes! Which is why they've since shifted some. If Munster do the same then there's no complaints.

Connacht have 8 which is fair enough. I forgot about Angus Lloyd. I thought it was 7.

aloooof

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

troyzer wrote: »

Some people here clearly DO want to keep everyone currently playing outhalf at Munster.

Is it half-backs or outhalf now? I'm finding it difficult to keep up...

phog

aloooof wrote: »

Is it half-backs or outhalf now? I'm finding it difficult to keep up...

and Centres and Fullbacks :pac:

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

Is it half-backs or outhalf now? I'm finding it difficult to keep up...

The problem is with half-backs in general but it's clear that there isn't much opposition to Hart getting the axe, which is great. So the problem isn't so much at scrum half.

Though I think Williams should also get the boot.

Mickiemcfist

Jesus lads, let MOLFs be MOLFs!

Kirk Van Houten

troyzer wrote: »

Yes! Which is why they've since shifted some. If Munster do the same then there's no complaints.

Connacht have 8 which is fair enough. I forgot about Angus Lloyd. I thought it was 7.

And Munster are doing the same. As Cookiemunster pointed out its hard to find out what petty points scoring you want to do because you move the goal posts so much.

I think we can finally agree that you think it should be six because thats what Leinster have. thats the long and the short of it.

its not IRFU policy, its not even consistent across the provinces, its just your belief.

I may actually have to get some work done today so if someone could take over the Trump Fact Checking on your posts that would be great.

(and by the way Gus Lloyd is not listed on Connachts site as a senior player so they in fact have 9 half backs - not the 6 you claimed).

irelandrover

Guess Who's Back, Back Again? JJ's Back, Tell a Friend

Didn't Leinster try to keep Carbery? So they tried to have 4 outhalfs on the books this year.

Burkie1203

irelandrover wrote: »

Didn't Leinster try to keep Carbery? So they tried to have 4 outhalfs on the books this year.

As a 15

Kirk Van Houten

The level of whataboutery and goal shifting by the MOLFs in this thread is just stunning.

I wonder what the next Mole article will be about.

Shefwedfan

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

The level of whataboutery and goal shifting by the MOLFs in this thread is just stunning.

I wonder what the next Mole article will be about.

Just keep posting MOLF.....I am sure at some stage, someone might find it hillarious.....

Dubinusa

I would suppose that TB would be fairly cheap? He's not played enough nor made the international set up to warrant a big payday.
If he's cheap and useful.... keep him.
Nick McCarthy will probably be the back up to Murray.
Once again, fairly inexpensive and a lot of potential. A very good signing imo.

The Lost Sheep

A new born king to see POM POM POM POM POM

Dubinusa wrote: »

I would suppose that TB would be fairly cheap? He's not played enough nor made the international set up to warrant a big payday.
If he's cheap and useful.... keep him.
Nick McCarthy will probably be the back up to Murray.
Once again, fairly inexpensive and a lot of potential. A very good signing imo.

I wouldnt say that cheap. But what would you be seeing as cheap.
Wouldnt say probably on McCarthy being back up. Has been said about a lot of guys signed behind Murray.

leakyboots

Psycho Killer - "Hands Away" (Prop-Prop-Prrrroppp-Prop, Prop-Prop-Prop-Prrrrrrop-Prop)

Don't know if people have mentioned it but Munster have gone through several coaches in a very short period of time, the squad is bound to get disrupted and unsettled when there's so much turnover overhead at management level. This happens in an actual workplace too.

I don't think it's a coincidence that now JvG is settled that we're seeing a bit of balance restored and the squad being trimmed and different areas of it looked at.

who_me

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Are you actually serious? you think it is light?



Max you shoud have 3 for the position
Carberry
JJ or Tyler
Johnson or young player

If Johnson comes good then release a player above and move another young player up in Johnson position.


That is it, anything else is a waste of players and money

(Conversation has moved on a bit, but answering this anyway...)

Yes, I do.

If Carbery wan't in the Irish squad, it wouldn't be a problem. Carbery, JJ and Johnston is a great line-up. However, with Carbery being away for various stretches of the season (international camps, Nov internationals, 6N, rest periods, plus the risk of injuries from international games) then having two other options is risky.

For those periods, we have 2 realistic 10s in the squad. Hanrahan is a very talented player, but IMO not a great 10. Johnston has massive potential, but is still pretty green; IMO a season or two away from being our starting 10 for big games. More worryingly, one injury to either of those 2 and we're down to... I don't even know who's next. Scannell maybe, though he's hardly played 10 since underage rugby. Bring someone up from the Academy?

That's why I was hoping Bleyendaal would stay for another year. By that time, Johnston would be a more realistic 10 option, IMO.

Defunkd

leakyboots wrote: »

Don't know if people have mentioned it but Munster have gone through several coaches in a very short period of time, the squad is bound to get disrupted and unsettled when there's so much turnover overhead at management level. This happens in an actual workplace too.

I don't think it's a coincidence that now JvG is settled that we're seeing a bit of balance restored and the squad being trimmed and different areas of it looked at.

We have changed a lot of coaches but to me, the best result was Rassie and the defence coach - forget his name. Such a change in such a short time! It kind of scuttles the idea that it takes a long time for them to gel, settle and see results. Yeah, outr backline attack wasn't spectacular but historically it never was. Up the jumper stuff...but if it wins games it's good.
Tbh, i liked Penney but locks on the wings and lateral rugby wasn't good. I genuinely think he'd have had better success had he come along a few years later.


JVG spoke at some meeting last week and gave hints at his medium-term plans for Munster. The man who relayed it to me was very impressed with JVG's analysis and vision for Munster and got the impression he wants to stay here for the foreseeable future. VG also gave a brief mention to Fineen - reckons he will be International in about a year.