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Letting Agents requesting very private data prior to viewing

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    #92
    Boater123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭Boater123


    Graham wrote: »
    No, I'm not about to start outing any agents on Boards.



    Some of the ads are undoubtedly open to interpretation. Is a potential tenant someone applying or someone offered a tenancy? Both?

    "All Potential Tenants" is less ambiguous.

    A quick search about 20 seconds ago returns 14 results.

    Potentially Contravening DP Legislation:





    While some get it right:



    Curiously, the one agency that specifically mentioned only 'retaining the information temporarily' has now removed all references to it.

    You say some of the ad's are ambiguous and can be interpreted other ways, not just yours.

    I google searched your quote which led to a specific EA website and all I can see is a LA informing potential tenants that there will be a vetting process and what that process entails

    The DPC ruled that an applicant and LL must sign a tenancy agreement and make the applicant a tenant before their ability to pay can be assessed?

    Nonsense. A bit late if they were telling porkies isn't it.


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    #93
    Boater123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭Boater123


    Graham wrote: »
    I'm not sure why you're getting such a bee in your bonnet about this.

    It's not unreasonable to expect any professional letting agency to be very specific about the stage further documentation is required. To do otherwise leaves the agency open to receiving personal data they have no right receiving.

    It's not rocket science:

    The successful applicant for this property will be required to submit ...A...B...C... prior to the commencement of a tenancy.


    That post was to somebody else.

    I do agree with your point above about stating at what stage etc.

    It would clear up a lot of confusion with people thinking they have to supply this to get a viewing. That when LA's are making such statements they are doing so to avoid wasting peoples time.


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    #94
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Boater123 wrote: »
    The DPC ruled that an applicant and LL must sign a tenancy agreement and make the applicant a tenant before their ability to pay can be assessed?

    The DPC opinion is fairly unambiguous:

    "personal data concerning bank details, PPS numbers and utility bills could be requested once the applicant had been accepted as a tenant."

    Nothing at all to do with 'signing a tenancy' agreement, nothing at all to suggest 'acceptance as a tenant' cannot be withdrawn.


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    #95
    Boater123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭Boater123


    Graham wrote: »
    The DPC opinion is fairly unambiguous:

    "personal data concerning bank details, PPS numbers and utility bills could be requested once the applicant had been accepted as a tenant."

    Nothing at all to do with 'signing a tenancy' agreement, nothing at all to suggest 'acceptance as a tenant' cannot be withdrawn.

    Semantics but a tenant is a tenant, a tenant is someone or entity that has a tenancy.


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    #96
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Boater123 wrote: »
    Semantics but a tenant is a tenant, a tenant is someone or entity that has a tenancy.

    You're right, it's semantics.

    Other parts of the linked document explain it's to specifically prevent letting agencies collecting personal data from multiple prospective tenants when only 1 of them would ultimately become the tenant.


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    #97
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Boater123 wrote: »
    Require and demand are synonyms, repetitive use of the same word is tedious and considered poor syntax.

    :rolleyes:

    Fine then.
    - They are requesting it from each person who wishes to arrange a viewing.
    - They are requiring demanding it from each applicant.

    And I'll ask you again, are you suggesting that this doesn't warrant a complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner? Genuinely interested.
    Boater123 wrote: »
    You may feel the points you have made were the salient ones here, but just as important is how did they ask/ request/ demand (without menaces of course) the info at the time of request for a viewing? Was it said in a phone call? Was it in a reply email? Was it written on a notice in their office?

    I literally said in the post you quoted that this was sent over email! Along with an official document attached stating it was required at application stage.
    Boater123 wrote: »
    I can't get your point about them requesting it prior but having no problem showing you any property without you supplying it. It just does not make sense.

    I don't know what you mean by this.


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    #98
    Boater123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭Boater123


    aloooof wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Fine then.
    - They are requesting it from each person who wishes to arrange a viewing.
    - They are requiring demanding it from each applicant.

    And I'll ask you again, are you suggesting that this doesn't warrant a complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner? Genuinely interested.



    I literally said in the post you quoted that this was sent over email! Along with an official document attached stating it was required at application stage.



    I don't know what you mean by this.

    So I will take it that you received a reply email to your original email enquiry/ request for a reviewing? That there was no other interaction, as this email is the only communication with the LA you have mentioned.

    This email informed any enquirers and you of their vetting procedure should you wish to apply for the tenancy and they deem you acceptable to apply (as you have let them know you will provide this information at tenancy application stage)

    Perhaps the wording was ambiguous (you didn't provide it), but clearly you misunderstood what was actually required. You say they told you (in the email?) they would facilitate a viewing sans info and no information was gathered.

    As I said above this is based on what you have said so far, and your use of words out of context "concede, concession, request, demand, etc".

    Those no good LA's the DPC is too good for them. Pilloried in the town square for their crimes I say. The cheek of them informing you before a viewing of their vetting process.

    They should have wasted their time and yours by waiting to the very last minute, when you were making plans and packing boxes, to reveal this.

    Frivolous complaints to the DPC PRSA or PRTB are a waste of those organisations time, time that can be used on cases with merit.


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    #99
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Boater123 wrote: »
    Perhaps the wording was ambiguous (you didn't provide it), but clearly you misunderstood what was actually required. You say they told you (in the email?) they would facilitate a viewing sans info and no information was gathered.

    It is in the EAs own interest to ensure request for personal information are both clear and unambiguous. Detailing what personal information is required AND at what stage it is required.

    To do otherwise leaves the agent open to prosecution.
    Boater123 wrote: »
    Frivolous complaints to the DPC PRSA or PRTB are a waste of those organisations time, time that can be used on cases with merit.

    You certainly don't speak for me suggesting the unnecessary sharing of personal information is frivolous.


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    #100
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Boater123 wrote: »
    So I will take it that you received a reply email to your original email enquiry/ request for a reviewing? That there was no other interaction, as this email is the only communication with the LA you have mentioned.

    This email informed any enquirers and you of their vetting procedure should you wish to apply for the tenancy and they deem you acceptable to apply (as you have let them know you will provide this information at tenancy application stage)

    Perhaps the wording was ambiguous (you didn't provide it), but clearly you misunderstood what was actually required. You say they told you (in the email?) they would facilitate a viewing sans info and no information was gathered.

    There was no ambiguity here, on my part. The Letting Agent was ambiguous on what point in the process they required this information, as evidenced by the fact that they requested it prior to viewing. Over several emails, I sought to clarify this. It culminated in them saying they would require this information [including Bank Statements and payslips] at the application stage from each applicant. At this point, I decided to forego the viewing, as I was uncomfortable handing over this information at that point also.

    The point is, their process sees them requesting Banks Statements and payslips prior to a viewing. Their process sees them requiring Banks Statements and payslips from all applicants. So my questions for you are:

    1. Do you think it's ok for a Letting Agency to be requesting Banks Statements and Payslips before the viewing stage?

    2. Do you think it's ok for a Letting Agency to be requiring Banks Statements and Payslips at the application stage?


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    #101
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭Fian


    Graham wrote: »
    The DPC opinion is fairly unambiguous:

    "personal data concerning bank details, PPS numbers and utility bills could be requested once the applicant had been accepted as a tenant."

    Nothing at all to do with 'signing a tenancy' agreement, nothing at all to suggest 'acceptance as a tenant' cannot be withdrawn.

    this is not the same thing as:

    personal data concerning bank details, PPS numbers and utility bills cannot be requested until the applicant has been accepted as a tenant


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    #102
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Fian wrote: »
    this is not the same thing as:

    With all due respect


    errrrrrrr what?


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    #103
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Fian wrote: »
    this is not the same thing as:
    personal data concerning bank details, PPS numbers and utility bills cannot be requested until the applicant has been accepted as a tenant

    Here's a direct quote from the DPC's report:
    We told the letting agency that we could not see any basis for collecting bank details, PPS numbers or copies of utility bills at application or property-viewing stage and we urged it to cease the practice immediately.


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    #104
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭Fian


    The law allows you to collect personal data with the consent of the person concerned. The DPC have not stated that it is unlawful to seek or collect this information.

    They have stated that they don't see any basis for it.

    They have urged a letting agent to cease the practice.

    They have not stated that it is unlawful, because it is not unlawful.

    They can urge away but it is open to anyone to collect this in any case.

    The exception is PPS numbers, where there is a specific restriction on the collection of that set out in the social welfare act. Other personal data can be requested and collected with the agreement of the data subject, and used for the purpose for which it is collected, whether DPC think the collection is necessary or not.


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    #105
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Fian wrote: »
    The law allows you to collect personal data with the consent of the person concerned. The DPC have not stated that it is unlawful to seek or collect this information.

    They have stated that they don't see any basis for it.

    They have urged a letting agent to cease the practice.

    They have not stated that it is unlawful, because it is not unlawful.

    They can urge away but it is open to anyone to collect this in any case.

    The exception is PPS numbers, where there is a specific restriction on the collection of that set out in the social welfare act. Other personal data can be requested and collected with the agreement of the data subject, and used for the purpose for which it is collected, whether DPC think the collection is necessary or not.

    You may want to go and read the Data Protection legislation.

    Data has to be relevant and necessary regardless of consent. It is neither in the context of viewing a property.

    Your argument is a bit like saying "just because a member of the Gardai told me I shouldn't be mugging people that doesn't mean it's unlawful for me to mug people"


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