Politics Cafe....? Banpocalypse now.

Special Circumstances

To the best of my knowledge I've never posted in the EU immigration thread. Maybe the odd post way back?

So this is as a somewhat objective observer.

What the holy hell is going on there? Someone down on their ban stats?


I've had it said to me on several occasions by Tom Dunne that if I keep getting sanctioned... maybe the problem is me and not boards.

So, in the same vein...if the mods must ban how many people in a row for commenting on the extremely obscure and restrictive conditions on how you can post about immigration... maybe it's boards and not the posters?

I didn't exactly see any KKK craic going in there like. There just seem to be a whole herd of elephants in the room and boards wants people to talk about the weather?

Im not sure of this is the right place? There are allegations of previous discussions of the same debacle being mod nuked. Perhaps as a poster who isn't on the PC ban list my thread could be allowed to stand?



Lol.

Lovely Bloke

Once again we have a thread moderated out of existence.

Immigration into the EU and the social and political problems that go along with it is absolutely a topic that should be discussed on Boards.ie

The thing is, and it's become wholly obvious in the past two to three months, moderators are being selected to moderate those, and related, discussions on the Politics Forum who bend to the will of the boards "higher-ups" who have deemed Right Wing "ideology" to be dangerous.

That Right Wing Ideology seems to start with anyone who even dares to question whether or not allowing unvetted people into the EU is a good idea or not. That is enough to get one labelled as some kind of right-wing lunatic in the eyes of the Heirarchy in general, and the PolCaf mods in particular.

If the mods are unwilling to facilitate both points of view on the forum then it becomes an echo chamber, which I suppose is what, in fact, is what the office would like to see.

Aren't we all lovely people here, we love everyone, everyone is welcome, no controversial opinions on this website advertisers, nothing to worry about.

It's getting pathetic.

Kivaro

The problem with the thread was that both mods (For Reals and Little CuChulainn) advocated open border immigration into Ireland, which is their opinion, but their bias unfortunately reflected the multitude of bans and cards on those with a differing opinion. Understanding the nature for obeying the Charter, the whole 'tone' of the thread would have been different if there was air of impartiality in the modding.

The only mechanism available to me in order to voice my objection to the unfairness exhibited by the two mods is not to re-subscribe to boards and to stop my regular practice of clicking-through on ads. I am conflicted with this action because of my enjoyment in other areas of boards, but there is a sense by many boards users that something is "not just right" with the modding on this thread.

Snake Plisken

Yes thank you guys for opening this thread on feedback as that's what we are supposed to do if we have an issue on certain areas of boards. I've decided to not post in that migration thread as if you say anything against the biggest group of people who are entering Europe happen to be folllowers of Islam and they happen to commit any crimes in Europe you are going to get a ban because you are singling out one group of people or religion. Another thread that ended up with loads of.inffactions was the horrific crime carried out by a failed asylum seeker last week one of the mods closed it due to the amount of posters getting carded, yet over in After Hours the thread is stilll going and a decent debate has sprung up. Maybe a similar thread to the migration should be set up in After Hours and we can just bypass the cafe?
I believe that if you mod a thread and have strong feelings on what is being discussed be it to the left or the right you should excuse yourself from modding that discussion and get someone more nuetral to mod it.
The Cafe was more open to debate 12 months ago now it's basically a no go zone on certain subjects.

Boards is and always has been a privately run company.. You do not have the right to say whatever you want. I'm sure someone will say it more eloquently, but that's what it realistically boils down to. Don't like it? There's plenty of other websites or.. Well.. Just go outside.

Brian201888

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Boards is and always has been a privately run company.. You do not have the right to say whatever you want. I'm sure someone will say it more eloquently, but that's what it realistically boils down to. Don't like it? There's plenty of other websites or.. Well.. Just go outside.

And boards won't make that private company any money if it's turned into an echo chamber with no room for different opinions

It's obviously not having much impact, given that it's been that way for a long time and people still keep coming back.

Special Circumstances

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Boards is and always has been a privately run company.. You do not have the right to say whatever you want. I'm sure someone will say it more eloquently, but that's what it realistically boils down to. Don't like it? There's plenty of other websites or.. Well.. Just go outside.

That's what I said in a mod deleted post... just close the site if they don't want Joe public contributing. Make it mods, their chosen existing acolytes and anyone after that is invitation/referral only.

Would save a ball of moderation and avoid the farces that have been happening more and more regularly.

Special Circumstances

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's obviously not having much impact, given that it's been that way for a long time and people still keep coming back.

Yeah it's positively booming compared to the good old days.

Special Circumstances

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Yeah it's positively booming compared to the good old days.

Actually, I would say it is. The fact that more and more companies are choosing to set up a Talk To forum, which I imagine ain't cheap, show that it is doing pretty well. If it weren't for the userbase, then these clients wouldn't be here.

KERSPLAT!

Special Circumstances wrote: »

That's what I said in a mod deleted post... just close the site if they don't want Joe public contributing. Make it mods, their chosen existing acolytes and anyone after that is invitation/referral only.

Would save a ball of moderation and avoid the farces that have been happening more and more regularly.

There are plenty of alternative views throughout boards. I don't frequent this particular thread or PC but it's certainly not a case, speaking for myself and I assume most mods, of wanting only those of a similar opinion to post and I doubt that is truly the case in PC.

Keep this thread on topic, give constructive criticism and I'm sure it will prove useful for posters and mods.

Special Circumstances

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, I would say it is. The fact that more and more companies are choosing to set up a Talk To forum, which I imagine ain't cheap, show that it is doing pretty well. If it weren't for the userbase, then these clients wouldn't be here.

Talk to forums are worse than Politics Cafe. The "Ask me anything from our press release" AMA on insurance was "new boards" at its most comical. Until the banpocalypse.

Taltos

Admin Note
Lets keep this on topic please.
Off topic posts will be removed at a minimum, reminder to read our charter, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056259147 posters who are on the wrong side of a ban in PC cannot post here, posts have already been removed where some have tried.

Richard Hillman

You just have to look at the amount of bans to see that there is something amiss. I received an infraction from a PC forum mod a few weeks ago for starting a thread in the feedback section about the PC forum.

It is beyond ludicrous. Put your opinions aside on the issue, the biggest issue in Europe right now is Islamic Immigration. It's not Brazilian immigration, it's not Chinese immigration, it's Islamic Immigration. And we have suddenly been told firstly that we cannot discuss specific types of immigration and the thread was subsequently closed.

So in Ireland's biggest forum and one of the largest in the world, we have no thread to discuss the most talked about issue in Europe right now. Does that make sense? Does that seem ok? When you see close to 10 forum members banned in the space of a couple of pages, does that not say "ah here, this isn't right?"

Imagine you had the soccer forum full of Man Utd mods and criticism of Man Utd was banned or the film section full of Mark Wahlberg fans and criticism of Mark Wahlberg was not tolerated? It doesn't make sense

AlekSmart

Deleted User wrote: »

Boards is and always has been a privately run company.. You do not have the right to say whatever you want. I'm sure someone will say it more eloquently, but that's what it realistically boils down to. Don't like it? There's plenty of other websites or.. Well.. Just go outside.

Nobody is suggesting that it is about "Saying whatever you want".

However,some of the PCafe mods,appear to believe that their determination of whichever charter elements they believe are relevant to silencing dissent on the official Boards.ie line allows them to be exempt from challenge.

What is it exactly about these "arguementative" posts you dislike,boneyarsebogeyman,and is it your contention that as a result of this,the thread should be shut down and hidden away ?

I have to say,that the thread locking strategy,as described by Little Cuchullain,smacks hugely of simple personal disagreement,disguised as rulebook implimentation.

Is it fear of legal action ?
Is it fear of monetary loss ?
is it fear of hearing what one wishes to avoid hearing ?
Is it fear of a very obvious,if unpalatable,truth ?

Perhaps events in the next two weeks will allow me to experience a Pauline Conversion,and return to the thread full of the joys of life and totally immersed in the Boards.ie approved line.....If so ,will the thread be reopened to celebrate my conversion ?

Will I Am Not

I had a read through a few threads on the PC forum when I signed up and just decided it wasn't for me. It's wall to wall red and yellow for what seems like little to no reason at all.

Jurgen Klopp

There's no point walking around it, there's a bias from certain mods plain and simple.

They don't like people having a view that they don't like. They thought they would quite down opinion contrary to their views when the immigration thread first opened but people were so angry with what's been happening they kept posting and what i consider the big breakthrough was when the usual racist accusations came along, people, even what i consider centrist posters ignored it and let it flow off them like water off a ducks back, cause they were so sick of the usual attempts to derail threads or demonise posters that haven't the "correct views"

It killed them so much they couldn't control the general consensus that they kept increasing the number and strictness of the rules to ensure they got the nice little echo chamber they wanted

I don't give a ****e anymore boards mods ain't gonna change the average Joe's opinion despite all the correct think they think they'll push on people.

Taltos

Richard Hillman wrote: »

You just have to look at the amount of bans to see that there is something amiss. I received an infraction from a PC forum mod a few weeks ago for starting a thread in the feedback section about the PC forum.

It is beyond ludicrous. Put your opinions aside on the issue, the biggest issue in Europe right now is Islamic Immigration. It's not Brazilian immigration, it's not Chinese immigration, it's Islamic Immigration. And we have suddenly been told firstly that we cannot discuss specific types of immigration and the thread was subsequently closed.

So in Ireland's biggest forum and one of the largest in the world, we have no thread to discuss the most talked about issue in Europe right now. Does that make sense? Does that seem ok? When you see close to 10 forum members banned in the space of a couple of pages, does that not say "ah here, this isn't right?"

Imagine you had the soccer forum full of Man Utd mods and criticism of Man Utd was banned or the film section full of Mark Wahlberg fans and criticism of Mark Wahlberg was not tolerated? It doesn't make sense

You got a Yellow, not an Infraction for a post off topic to that thread. In the middle of the immigration thread you posted your link to your feedback thread and that was it. Mod action was 100% correct. Take it to DRF if you wish.


__Alex__I've removed your post as it's off topic for this feedback thread and is crossing the line in making things personal.

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

I had a read through a few threads on the PC forum when I signed up and just decided it wasn't for me. It's wall to wall red and yellow for what seems like little to no reason at all.

We need to complete our review of the thread but on the last few pages the mod action seems warranted as does the thread closure.

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

There's no point walking around it, there's a bias from certain mods plain and simple.

They don't like people having a view that they don't like. They thought they would quite down opinion contrary to their views when the immigration thread first opened but people were so angry with what's been happening they kept posting and what i consider the big breakthrough was when the usual racist accusations came along, people, even what i consider centrist posters ignored it and let it flow off them like water off a ducks back, cause they were so sick of the usual attempts to derail threads or demonise posters that haven't the "correct views"

It killed them so much they couldn't control the general consensus that they kept increasing the number and strictness of the rules to ensure they got the nice little echo chamber they wanted

I don't give a ****e anymore boards mods ain't gonna change the average Joe's opinion despite all the correct think they think they'll push on people.

Everyone has a bias, and sometimes in an effort to counteract your own bias you might mod to the right or the left of where you really feel. As to you claims of demonising posters, that's quite severe, please provide links and evidence of this for us to look into.

Richard Hillman

Taltos wrote: »

We need to complete our review of the thread but on the last few pages the mod action seems warranted as does the thread closure.

Does a mod saying that we can discuss the immigration crisis but we cannot identify specific types of immigration seem legit to you?

Are we going to group Brazilians and Chinese as part of the blame for the Islamic terror attacks and mass sexual assaults?

It's ridiculous. You know it. Everyone knows it. The biggest and most talked about issue in Europe right now and Boards.ie isn't allowing a thread on it.

Taltos

Boards has tried to have plenty of threads on this topic. But each one has descended into a mire of hate speech and fear mongering and don't forget it was one of these threads last year that prompted the forum to be temporarily nuked as well as a few posters, it was the very mods you are decrying here now that fought for it's return. Funny that.

We're a discussion site. We're not a hate speech site labelling all muslims as terrorists. That logic just breeds fear. Folk should be free to practice whatever stupid religion they like once they don't try to ram it down your throat. But this thread was on mass immigration, and yet time and again it turned into diatribes from a few on Islam, on veils, on sharia courts you name it they got wheeled out.

So here were the 4 basic rules of the thread

1. No Posts which incite hatred/violence.
2. No Newsdumping.
3. No sweeping generalisations.
4. No making claims without a reputable source to back up what you are referencing.

And yet time and again we saw these being ignored, as well as the general charter.
That thread was rightly closed.

Now the key question should be what do we do now?
Clearly immigration threads just attract the types of posts that Boards are better without, looking at this one I can clearly see incitement there as well as pure muppetry, what I don't see are the corresponding reports for some of these which worries me doubly.

The Backwards Man

Taltos wrote: »

Boards has tried to have plenty of threads on this topic. But each one has descended into a mire of hate speech and fear mongering and don't forget it was one of these threads last year that prompted the forum to be temporarily nuked as well as a few posters, it was the very mods you are decrying here now that fought for it's return. Funny that.

We're a discussion site. We're not a hate speech site labelling all muslims as terrorists. That logic just breeds fear. Folk should be free to practice whatever stupid religion they like once they don't try to ram it down your throat. But this thread was on mass immigration, and yet time and again it turned into diatribes from a few on Islam, on veils, on sharia courts you name it they got wheeled out.

So here were the 4 basic rules of the thread


And yet time and again we saw these being ignored, as well as the general charter.
That thread was rightly closed.

Now the key question should be what do we do now?
Clearly immigration threads just attract the types of posts that Boards are better without, looking at this one I can clearly see incitement there as well as pure muppetry, what I don't see are the corresponding reports for some of these which worries me doubly.

Decent posters just leave them to it I think, it takes a lot of dedication and effort to rebuke a lot of the nonsense of those with an agenda, and unless you like banging your head off a wall as a hobby you end up just letting them at it.

Tokyo

Oh dear...

Lets just get the usual key words and accusations out of the way first, to save us all some time.

• "Circling the wagons"....... check.
  
• "Biased moderation"....... check.
  
• "soapboxing"....... check.
  
• Boards.ie pandering to the popular vote....... check.

I'm not posting the above list to be facetious or dismissive, but rather to highlight how predictable the arguments have become in these feedback threads. Because these days, when it comes to the cafe, it seems that feedback has gone from somewhere where genuine opinions on how to improve things are posted, to a place where certain people get to climb up on their usual hobby horses and endeavour to rile up the baying masses, or as a thinly veiled attempt to continue arguing a DRP that hasn't gone their way.

Conversation has never been stifled in one direction in the Cafe - opinions from either side of the fence are welcome, as long as you have the means to back them up. As Taltos pointed out above, the rules can be prety much summed up in four points.

1. No Posts which incite hatred/violence.
2. No Newsdumping.
3. No sweeping generalisations.
4. No making claims without a reputable source to back up what you are referencing.

Those are by no means complicated or overly restrictive boundaries, so it genuinely beggars belief when I check out the reported posts that people still can't seem to work within them.

"The bombing last night was carried out by Islam extremists - see <link to source>" - not a problem! The poster isn't generalising, and provided a link to back up his/her statement.

"Letting in the muslims is just inviting trouble! There'll be suicide bombings in the streets! Shut down the borders!" - yep, generalising. And will be immediately nuked.

I personally love threads where Joe public feels free to contribute, and there is reasonable debate from both sides as long as it's (a) non defamatory and (b) meets the four criteria laid out above. I'd be very surprised to hear of one mod, admin or boards employee that doesn't agree with that sentiment. I live and work in a muslim community and I can manage to have these conversations with my colleagues and neighbours, in their homes, without applying a blanket label to them as being terrorists or insulting their beliefs, so I'm genuinely baffled as to why people living 6,000 miles away can't do the same with others who aren't even invested in that particular flavour of religion. (To clarify, Islam isn't the only facet of life to get this blanket treatment in the Cafe, it just happens to be the most highlighted one at the moment.)

What you're not aware of, or blissfully ignore, is that when genuine feedback is provided, it's acted upon. The last feedback thread presented a reasonable point about perceived inconsistencies in moderation, and right now there is a huge amount of discussion in the Cafe Mods forum on how to maintain a posting environment where people can post their opinions (whatever they may be) with the lightest touch of moderation possible, without letting those threads degenerate into the cesspit of vitriol (and almost boringly predictable blanket statements at this stage) about religions or ethnic groups. And don't be under any illusion that this isn't what happens, without exception, in each and every one of those threads. The last Immigration thread almost got the Cafe shut down.

The biggest mistake the Politics Cafe has made so far is not that people fought to keep it open last year. It's not the choice of moderators, nor is it the choice of which threads should be off limits because they are too much trouble. The mistake was far simpler - it was expecting that everybody posting there could debate rationally, and act like adults. A high percentage of people do, and it's good to see. What's endemic there however amongst a small percentage of posters is continual sh1tstirring, and an arrogance of belief that "my opinion is more imprortant than yours, and therefore I must ram it down your throat and browbeat you into submission". Or "my opinion is so important, it should be just taken as fact".

So, being brutally honest here for a second, my own, non CMod opinion is that it's funny in a way that the OP thinks that the Cafe mods have gone ban happy, because the reality is, the easiest way to fix the Cafe would be to simply ban the five biggest ****stirrers that post in there. A month later, rinse and repeat. After three months or so, I dare say the Cafe would be much more pleasant place to be. And by ****stirrers I don't mean those whose opinions differ from my own - I'm referring to those posters who inject an element of xenophobia into every thread they can, or those who go out of their way to be deliberately obtuse when it comes to other posters points in the Cafe. Now that's not something any moderator would ever do (or ever allow anyone else to do) because like it or not, fair process applies to all, and that everybody deserves the chance to find their groove, whatever their flavour of politics happens to be. So the onus is on the posters to present their point in a reasonable manner, irrespective of whether it's the popular opinion or not. That's not a big ask.

To address the OP's point, somewhat ironically, a contributory factor in the problem posting in the Cafe is that we have been inconsistent in moderation there - giving people multiple chances by means of yellow card after yellow card, instead of running them up through the infraction process until they have earned themselves a ban. That's something that is being discussed since the last feedback thread - a method by which continuous troublemakers hang themselves with their own rope, without being so rigid as to impact open discussion, and posters that are able to comment in a rational manner. Because at the end of the day, it's not pleasant for moderators to have to infract or ban someone. It's not pleasant for CMods and admin to have to deal with DRP threads. Unfortunately it's what needs to be done in order to make the forum a reasonable place for all to post in.

However, to call this a feedback thread at this point in time is disingenuous at best. It's just another thread where the same stalking horses get trotted out, and poisoning of the well seems to be the fare du jour. It's useful though, because it serves as a perfect example of what the Cafe mods have to deal with on a daily basis - a genuine thread that degenerates into unfounded allegations and points scoring.

Provide useful feedback however, and we'll endeavor to act on it.

LuckyLloyd

Taltos wrote: »

Boards has tried to have plenty of threads on this topic. But each one has descended into a mire of hate speech and fear mongering and don't forget it was one of these threads last year that prompted the forum to be temporarily nuked as well as a few posters, it was the very mods you are decrying here now that fought for it's return. Funny that.

We're a discussion site. We're not a hate speech site labelling all muslims as terrorists. That logic just breeds fear. Folk should be free to practice whatever stupid religion they like once they don't try to ram it down your throat. But this thread was on mass immigration, and yet time and again it turned into diatribes from a few on Islam, on veils, on sharia courts you name it they got wheeled out.

So here were the 4 basic rules of the thread


And yet time and again we saw these being ignored, as well as the general charter.
That thread was rightly closed.

Now the key question should be what do we do now?
Clearly immigration threads just attract the types of posts that Boards are better without, looking at this one I can clearly see incitement there as well as pure muppetry, what I don't see are the corresponding reports for some of these which worries me doubly.

You don't see the corresponding reports because, rightly or wrongly, the majority of traffic in the thread sees no problem with the content of the thread. A large body of the Irish population have decided that Islam is a negative force in the world and tied it inextricably to the Immigration issue. That's what they think, it's what they believe.

While it isn't exactly what I believe, and I can see nuance and complexity in the issue, I find it utterly abhorrent that the site wants to prevent the expression of widely held views. Let the views be expressed and let them be challenged, exposed and argued down. If you want, post an official boards.ie position in the first post or in the charter or something. But it's clear as day that a lot of posters simply flat out disagree with you / I on this one, and see the matter at hand very differently to you / I. That's the point where you need to let it go, allow the discussion to happen.

listermint

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You don't see the corresponding reports because, rightly or wrongly, the majority of traffic in the thread sees no problem with the content of the thread. A large body of the Irish population have decided that Islam is a negative force in the world and tied it inextricably to the Immigration issue. That's what they think, it's what they believe.

While it isn't exactly what I believe, and I can see nuance and complexity in the issue, I find it utterly abhorrent that the site wants to prevent the expression of widely held views. Let the views be expressed and let them be challenged, exposed and argued down. If you want, post an official boards.ie position in the first post or in the charter or something. But it's clear as day that a lot of posters simply flat out disagree with you / I on this one, and see the matter at hand very differently to you / I. That's the point where you need to let it go, allow the discussion to happen.

Any data to back up that opinion?

LuckyLloyd

listermint wrote: »

Any data to back up that opinion?

What data do you want exactly? Taltos indicated less reports than he would expect considering he finds the content so distasteful. The current thread has over 2k posts in three months (with presumably a number deleted) indicating a level of interest in the conversation that is currently taking place in the way it's taking place.

Boggles

That particular thread belongs in the bin.

It made the Daily Mail comments section seem legit.

Good riddance.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

That particular thread belongs in the bin.

It made the Daily Mail comments section seem legit.

Good riddance.

You are successfully debating and arguing down things in that thread. And that's a good thing. How is the discussion being limited a victory for you?

weisses

Richard Hillman wrote: »

the biggest issue in Europe right now is Islamic Immigration. It's not Brazilian immigration, it's not Chinese immigration, it's Islamic Immigration.

Well if you cannot differentiate between a country and a religion ... then yes that could cause a problem.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You are successfully debating and arguing down things in that thread. And that's a good thing. How is the discussion being limited a victory for you?

TBH Lloyd there is only so many Daily Express or Breitbart articles you can argue down.

I fundamentally agree with you. But that thread was a dumping ground for ignorance with a sprinkling of trolling (I hope).

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

TBH Lloyd there is only so many Daily Express or Breitbart articles you can argue down.

I fundamentally agree with you. But that thread was a dumping ground for ignorance with a sprinkling of trolling (I hope).

Again, seems to be a lot of "ignorant" posters. At a certain point the minority is too significant not to be heard.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.