NBA Playoffs 2017

irishman86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, Miami were strongly favoured in 2011. They were favoured in 2012 and 2013 too. Every other finals series he's played he's been a dog to various degrees. He completely choked in the 2011 series, the pressure and expectation got to him. Since then? He's been exceptional consistently in Finals series and his statline in elimination games is incredible.

Casual fan narratives like "stat stuffer" mean nothing. He's not a box score darling at all, but efficiency metrics like adjusted plus minus, TPA and PER love him. His ts% this playoffs has been incredible, and his defense is obviously exceptional from the eye test perspective - the Cavs fall apart when he's off the floor.

I don't even know why I engage with this nonsense. The media in the States has a huge amount to answer for.

Just like his records in the finals mean nothing I suppose.
Its something Ive noticed with LBJ fans is anything negative to him means nothing. Ive seen it on reddit and I guess its here aswell

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

LeBron is definitely better than Kobe (and people on here think I'm the biggest LeBron hater in the world!).

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say Kobe is over-rated though.

I was a huge Kobe fan. He played with a massive level of intensity and his longevity kind of makes people forget how dynamic he was during his peak. But there are genuine knocks against him. He wasn't super efficient; and he could go into a negative chucking spiral at times.

But he had moments man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D12G33b6ePw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2JE2L4vhNA

And he had an unrivalled ability to get his jumper off under pressure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGOt9QoAxNs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX7lN9t_i3M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auhmi94sh5M

Gregk961

irishman86 wrote: »

Just like his records in the finals mean nothing I suppose.
Its something Ive noticed with LBJ fans is anything negative to him means nothing. Ive seen it on reddit and I guess its here aswell

Im not a Lebron "Fan"(im not sure why people have to take a position of fan or hater, either way it lessens your objectiveness) but I'd disagree with almost eveything you have posted on this page. It sounds like you either:
a) Dont watch games and take your cues from ESPN.
b) Watch games and dont understand what you're looking at.

LuckyLloyd

irishman86 wrote: »

Just like his records in the finals mean nothing I suppose.
Its something Ive noticed with LBJ fans is anything negative to him means nothing. Ive seen it on reddit and I guess its here aswell

Means "nothing"? What do you want it to mean? He had one series of the last seven (SEVEN!!!!) straight trips to the finals where he legitimately underperformed. He's lost two of three to the Warriors who I genuinely believe beyond a shadow of a doubt are the best team ever created. In all three of those finals series he's been phenomenal. It's a team game.

The last two years he's set new records in the finals. More than that, in the playoffs this year he led the league in Points, Assists and Steals, Win Shares and VORP. I don't get you guys like. If you love basketball you should be delighted to watch him doing what he's doing. I mean, it's utterly incredible to watch him. And instead you guys are sitting there waffling about stat padding and how kicking the ball out to a wide open Kyle Korver (50%+ over his career when wide open from 3) shows he has no heart or something. Or bringing up the Decision nonsense from 2010 over and over and over. I just don't get it.

It's like the lads twisting themselves in hate at Ronaldo because he has a distinctive personal style or once played for Utd. This desire to focus on every little negative of the greatest players and magnify them. Bizarre. LeBron was right:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

irishman86

Gregk961 wrote: »

Im not a Lebron "Fan"(im not sure why people have to take a position of fan or hater, either way it lessens your objectiveness) but I'd disagree with almost eveything you have posted on this page. It sounds like you either:
a) Dont watch games and take your cues from ESPN.
b) Watch games and dont understand what you're looking at.

Or (c)
Dont think he as good as others think

irishman86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Means "nothing"? What do you want it to mean? He had one series of the last seven (SEVEN!!!!) straight trips to the finals where he legitimately underperformed. He's lost two of three to the Warriors who I genuinely believe beyond a shadow of a doubt are the best team ever created. In all three of those finals series he's been phenomenal. It's a team game.

The last two years he's set new records in the finals. More than that, in the playoffs this year he led the league in Points, Assists and Steals, Win Shares and VORP. I don't get you guys like. If you love basketball you should be delighted to watch him doing what he's doing. I mean, it's utterly incredible to watch him. And instead you guys are sitting there waffling about stat padding and how kicking the ball out to a wide open Kyle Korver (50%+ over his career when wide open from 3) shows he has no heart or something. Or bringing up the Decision nonsense from 2010 over and over and over. I just don't get it.

It's like the lads twisting themselves in hate at Ronaldo because he has a distinctive personal style or once played for Utd. This desire to focus on every little negative of the greatest players and magnify them. Bizarre. LeBron was right:

I never mentioned Korver or decision
I dont hate LBJ, Ronaldo or Messi
I think LBJ plays on a super team and pads his stats
I enjoy watching LBJ pad his stats doesnt mean I think hes the greatest you paint him, his finals record while playing on said superteams shows he will never be Kobe never mind Jordan

LuckyLloyd

What do you think "stat padding" is? Or rather, what do you believe you are seeing? He's super efficient!! He just went through this playoffs with a 30.0 PER and .649 ts% on 31.7% usage. Also, an actual negative, he did most of his scoring during the first half of games - obviously an indicator that he wears down towards the end of games playing ~45mins of key games and playing a bruising physical style at 32. But he's hardly ringing up points in garbage time of the 4th quarter consistently, and he's certainly not chucking.

So, what do you mean? Also - is he "stat padding" steals? Assists?

irishman86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What do you think "stat padding" is? Or rather, what do you believe you are seeing? He's super efficient!! He just went through this playoffs with a 30.0 PER and .649 ts% on 31.7% usage. Also, an actual negative, he did most of his scoring during the first half of games - obviously an indicator that he wears down towards the end of games playing ~45mins of key games and playing a bruising physical style at 32. But he's hardly ringing up points in garbage time of the 4th quarter consistently, and he's certainly not chucking.

So, what do you mean? Also - is he "stat padding" steals? Assists?

Gets most of his stats at the start of the game, but nothing towards the end when it matters. That for me padding
32 isnt old, what was Jordan doing at that age
As for physical hmmm once again did you watch how the game was played back when Jordan was the top dog

Gregk961

irishman86 wrote: »

Gets most of his stats at the start of the game, but nothing towards the end when it matters. That for me padding

Oh dear.

LuckyLloyd

irishman86 wrote: »

Gets most of his stats at the start of the game, but nothing towards the end when it matters. That for me padding
32 isnt old, what was Jordan doing at that age
As for physical hmmm once again did you watch how the game was played back when Jordan was the top dog

So "padding", as per your definition, is scoring actively throughout the game with a bias towards the first half; against a team's best rotations? Okay. I'll leave that point so as I don't think there's more to discuss.

At 32, Jordan played 733 minutes in 18 playoff games (versus LeBron's 744 in 18 this year); had a 26.7 PER (compared to LeBron's 30.0 this year); had a .564 ts% (versus LeBron's .649); had 552 points / 74 assists / 33 steals (versus LeBron's 591 points / 141 assists / 35 steals; had 4.7 WS and 1.9 VORP (versus LeBron's 4.2 and 2.5). So Jordan was exceptional, but not as good in terms of individual performance overall.

I'm sure you'll say he had 1 ring and LeBron had none; but Kevin Love is certainly no Scottie Pippen; Lue is no Jackson; and the Warriors are an entirely different proposition to the Supersonics!

Yeah, everyone should watch the game in the 90's. There was hand checking, but there were no moving screens / poor spacing / a much lower tempo. LeBron just spent a finals series driving to the rim over and over against the length and tenacity of great defenders like Draymond Green, Iggy and KD. And the Warriors aren't exactly a static team offensively that give you breathers playing defense. Jordan was a warrior, LeBron is too.

(WHY AM I ENGAGING!! :pac:)

irishman86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So "padding", as per your definition, is scoring actively throughout the game with a bias towards the first half; against a team's best rotations? Okay. I'll leave that point so as I don't think there's more to discuss.

At 32, Jordan played 733 minutes in 18 playoff games (versus LeBron's 744 in 18 this year); had a 26.7 PER (compared to LeBron's 30.0 this year); had a .564 ts% (versus LeBron's .649); had 552 points / 74 assists / 33 steals (versus LeBron's 591 points / 141 assists / 35 steals; had 4.7 WS and 1.9 VORP (versus LeBron's 4.2 and 2.5). So Jordan was exceptional, but not as good in terms of individual performance overall.

I'm sure you'll say he had 1 ring and LeBron had none; but Kevin Love is certainly no Scottie Pippen; Lue is no Jackson; and the Warriors are an entirely different proposition to the Supersonics!

Yeah, everyone should watch the game in the 90's. There was hand checking, but there were no moving screens / poor spacing / a much lower tempo. LeBron just spent a finals series driving to the rim over and over against the length and tenacity of great defenders like Draymond Green, Iggy and KD. And the Warriors aren't exactly a static team offensively that give you breathers playing defense. Jordan was a warrior, LeBron is too.

(WHY AM I ENGAGING!! :pac:)

Youre right Kevin Love is a scrub, not one of the top players in the league who takes one for the team playing third fiddle (Just like Bosh before him), its not like he was a bona-fide all star before going to Cleveland(Miami) :rolleyes:
Youre right LBJ just spend the entire playoffs getting pushed to the max, oh wait no he didnt infact they steam rolled the east
Jordan played against defenders like MWP, green has nothing on the 90s defenders. He only stands out these days because hes a level above the soft players currently in the NBA
I get it buddy, you are a fan of LBJ

(WHY AM I ENGAGING!! :pac:)

Carcharodon

What is wrong with people, 2 days removed from crowning new NBA champions and all there is on here is negativity and trying to cut people down
Why not celebrate on what a great team the Warriors are and what they have achieved as an organization over the past few years is amazing.
Well over a million people out for the parade today in Oakland, pretty amazing scenes.

People talk about the Cavs as if they are done, jesus, they only went and win it last year with pretty much the same team.
Love is a great player, anyone that says otherwise is dumb, pure and simple, amazing how he is being put straight on the chopping block.

All I can say is, SOMEBODY HAS TO WIN, there is no magic formula, draft the right players, hire the right coaches & staff and make smart trades combined with a bit of luck is all you can hope for.

Lebron v Jordan is so god damn old, who actually cares ???? How does it matter ???

LuckyLloyd

irishman86 wrote: »

Youre right Kevin Love is a scrub, not one of the top players in the league who takes one for the team playing third fiddle (Just like Bosh before him), its not like he was a bona-fide all star before going to Cleveland(Miami) :rolleyes:

Well, bona fide All Star or not, Love with his own team as the main piece never did anything of consequence. Scottie Pippen's Bulls sans Jordan went 55 - 27 and lost to the Knicks in 7.

irishman86 wrote: »

Youre right LBJ just spend the entire playoffs getting pushed to the max, oh wait no he didnt infact they steam rolled the east

I mean, you might have noticed that Jordan age 32 played 18 games also. Why? Because that year they steamrolled the East losing just a single game.

irishman86 wrote: »

Jordan played against defenders like MWP, green has nothing on the 90s defenders. He only stands out these days because hes a level above the soft players currently in the NBA

Leaving aside that we were comparing specific players they faced at 32, the contention that all modern players are "soft" in comparison to 90's players is nostalgia. The game has changed, but - particularly in the playoffs - you still pay a price for driving to the rim. And again, as I described above, the physical challenges are different. Yeah, you don't have as many slow guys idly standing in and around the paint. So big men need to be more athletic; have to be able to get out to the perimeter to defend the three; have to be able to defend the pick and roll and deal with high screens that are allowed to move a little or a lot. The game has changed - 46mins is still as big a challenge at this elite level as it ever was.

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

LeBron is definitely better than Kobe (and people on here think I'm the biggest LeBron hater in the world!).

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say Kobe is over-rated though.

Kobe is a great no doubt but I think people who think he's too 2-3 are mad he's arguably not top 10

ButtersSuki

Aron Old-fashioned Overlord wrote: »

Kobe is a great no doubt but I think people who think he's too 2-3 are mad he's arguably not top 10

To be claer he's not Top 2/3 for me, not even close!

K.O.Kiki

Aron Old-fashioned Overlord wrote: »

Kobe is a great no doubt but I think people who think he's too 2-3 are mad he's arguably not top 10

Kobe is an easy Top-5 lock.

K.O.Kiki

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Kobe is an easy Top-5 lock.

I mean Devin booker scored 70 is he a top 10 all time player?

NufcNavan

Kobe is probably the 2nd best SG of all time.

He's top 10, but not so sure he's top 5.

That's not knocking Kobe ffs.

NufcNavan

NufcNavan wrote: »

Kobe is probably the 2nd best SG of all time.

He's top 10, but not so sure he's top 5.

That's not knocking Kobe ffs.

Don't mean to knock him at all I have seen people say 1.jordan 2. Kobe and I don't think that's even a conversation I don't think he sniffs top 5

irishman86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well, bona fide All Star or not, Love with his own team as the main piece never did anything of consequence. Scottie Pippen's Bulls sans Jordan went 55 - 27 and lost to the Knicks in 7.



I mean, you might have noticed that Jordan age 32 played 18 games also. Why? Because that year they steamrolled the East losing just a single game.



Leaving aside that we were comparing specific players they faced at 32, the contention that all modern players are "soft" in comparison to 90's players is nostalgia. The game has changed, but - particularly in the playoffs - you still pay a price for driving to the rim. And again, as I described above, the physical challenges are different. Yeah, you don't have as many slow guys idly standing in and around the paint. So big men need to be more athletic; have to be able to get out to the perimeter to defend the three; have to be able to defend the pick and roll and deal with high screens that are allowed to move a little or a lot. The game has changed - 46mins is still as big a challenge at this elite level as it ever was.

Pippen still had stars on his team, what star did Love ever have, Rubio :pac:
They then won the title which LBJ didnt do and hasnt done 5 times compared to MJ perfect record and the east was a lot better than currently and doesnt look like changing for next few years. GSW had Spurs and Rockets both teams who would have pushed Cleveland.
Green is the hardest in the NBA currently and stands out so ya its 100% not as hard as it used to be
Ive heard this argument a thousand times saying Messi/Ronaldo are the best but in reality its only because you are currently watching them and have forgotten other superstars

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Kobe is an easy Top-5 lock.

Kobe is the No. 1 all time gunner, I'll give him that.

Top 5 All-Time? Maybe if basketball started in 1995.

Honestly so many people on here clearly don't know the history of the game if that's a serious comment. Kobe wasn't even the best player on his own team when Shaq was on the Lakers (people also seem to forget how dominant that era's Shaq was, he seems to be remembered more for Shaqtin' a Fool now than anything else).

K.O.Kiki

D2D

Guys, I'm going to lock this as the Playoffs are finished & tbh, this debate seems to just be going in circles