NBA Playoffs 2017

ButtersSuki · 20-04-2017 1:14pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

https://streamable.com/08s6v

Westbrook ain't no MVP.

If they were to show a montage of Harden's zero defense and zero effort plays you could portray him quite badly too. He's a regular on Shaqtin' A Fool for some of his less than brilliant plays. A video montage of ONLY a person's bad plays can make anyone look bad.

K.O.Kiki · 20-04-2017 3:00pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

If they were to show a montage of Harden's zero defense and zero effort plays you could portray him quite badly too. He's a regular on Shaqtin' A Fool for some of his less than brilliant plays. A video montage of ONLY a person's bad plays can make anyone look bad.

These were all in the fourth quarter of Game 2; he's missing open team mates.
Bad court vision IMO

ButtersSuki · 20-04-2017 3:33pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

These were all in the fourth quarter of Game 2; he's missing open team mates.
Bad court vision IMO

I'm not saying he's perfect. I said it was the best and worst of him on show last night. But again, if he doesn't play like he did in the first 3 quarters they're not even close.

I honestly think the guy is getting an unfair amount of criticism this year considering what he's done has been historic. On top of the triple double he's the smallest player ever to average 10 boards per game in the NBA - a fact rarely pointed out. People were wowing Harden's 50pt trip dub when he did it in the regular season, this is playoffs. When Russ does it people are talking about passes he didn't make. Hmm? And before anyone says it I said he had a poor 4th quarter.

I'll also state it again, his support cast is not as good as Harden's NOR is it built to maximise his skillset like Harden's has been. Houston have been built and shaped around Harden. Russ has found himself in this position because of the KD move. If you go through my posts over the years you'll see I've been HUGELY critical of him on the past but given the talent (or lack thereof) he has next to him right now I don't think he could do much more.

brady23 · 20-04-2017 7:16pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

These were all in the fourth quarter of Game 2; he's missing open team mates.
Bad court vision IMO

I'm not saying he's perfect. I said it was the best and worst of him on show last night. But again, if he doesn't play like he did in the first 3 quarters they're not even close.

I honestly think the guy is getting an unfair amount of criticism this year considering what he's done has been historic. On top of the triple double he's the smallest player ever to average 10 boards per game in the NBA - a fact rarely pointed out. People were wowing Harden's 50pt trip dub when he did it in the regular season, this is playoffs. When Russ does it people are talking about passes he didn't make. Hmm? And before anyone says it I said he had a poor 4th quarter.

I'll also state it again, his support cast is not as good as Harden's NOR is it built to maximise his skillset like Harden's has been. Houston have been built and shaped around Harden. Russ has found himself in this position because of the KD move. If you go through my posts over the years you'll see I've been HUGELY critical of him on the past but given the talent (or lack thereof) he has next to him right now I don't think he could do much more.

I still struggle with this idea that Westbrooks supporting cast is weaker than Hardens especially prior to the trade deadline.

No doubts the system is better suited to the players but as I previously said if you asked someone prior to the start of the season who do you want Kanter, Adams, Oladipo or Anderson, Beverley, Gordon?
I personally think more would pick OKCs three, it's not exactly a clear cut choice that the Rockets three are better.

Win shares, PER and subjective opinion prior to the start of this season would not give any sort of advantage to Rockets supporting cast so I don't think that's true.

Also the Westbrook smallest to average 10 boards is a poor indicator of anything.
It's pretty clear he's been hunting for boards.
I don't think it's as true of points or assists but it's definitely true of boards.

You say he's getting an unfair amount of criticism but unfortunately as you stated before the better players should be held to a higher standard and Westbrook has taken a leap this year to where he's solely accountable for the success of his team.

He's obviously done his job to a point by getting his team to the playoffs but triple doubles and 50 points a game etc are less and less relevant now, its all about winning and OKC blew a great opportunity to steal one from the Rockets and when you are doing it all yourself you have to deal with the criticism that comes along with it.
He made bad decisions towards the end of game, that's what matters not that he got whatever stat line.

ButtersSuki · 20-04-2017 8:57pm

Ok,

So here's the thing......

If Westbrook shoots 30+ times and scores a triple double and they win it's fine, but if they lose it's not? You can't say it's an amazing performance if they win and he's fully responsible for the loss and the cause if they lose. At least be consistent on it.

Take 2 recent games, the Orlando and the Denver 50+ point trip dubs. He went insane in the 4th quarter of each game completely taking over and effectively single handedly winning each won (largely) on his own. Take the last play in each of those games in regulation - huge threes from far out to tie and win respectively. Were they extremely high degree of difficulty shots? Yes. Were they bad shots? Yes in one way, but because they go in they're judged by some/most not to be. The shots didn't go in last night and he made some bad decisions in the 4th quarter. Did he have a sh*t game? No. Would they be within an asses roar of Houston in the 4th if he didn't play the same way in quarters 1-3? No. The shots went in early, they didn't fall in the 4th. Sometimes they fall, sometimes they don't. That happens. If two of those shots fall they win. What you can't deny is he had an amazing first 3 quarters last night. Did he make a lot of poor decisions and take some very bad shots last night in the 4th. Yes. I'm not saying he didn't. Not at all. But the criticism he gets is a bit OTT and unfair IMO. AND AGAIN, I'M SAYING THIS A SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN HUGELY CRITICAL OF WESTBROOK OVER THE YEARS FOR HIS GUNNING AND HIS LACK OF PASSING. OKC won games this year they never should have won because he took over. Did he take on too much last night? Sure.

As for chasing rebounds? Do you have any idea how hard that is to do and what does to your body? I played at a high level and the physicality gets immeasurably tougher the higher you go. I've played with and against NBA players and the thing that always astonishes me is how much bigger they are physically in real life than they look on tv. Have you ever seen how wide the average 7 foot NBA player is, let alone tall? I have. Have you ever tried to rebound against a couple or more of 6'10" and above players? I have, and it knocks the steam out of you pretty quickly. You can chase rebounds in maybe a few games but if you do that over 82 games it will take its toll. HE DID NOT CHASE REBOUNDS FOR 82 GAMES. If you do that the rest of your game falls apart. His rebounding numbers for a player his size/any guard have always been impressive, this year he's improved that to historic level and he's labelled a chaser. Ah come on now. Give him some credit. Conversely if rebounds were so easy to accumulate, why didn't harden just tag on the 2 per game he need to record a triple double too? Answer? Because it's not actually that easy.

Roster - you named 3 players. You left out Capella and Nene for Houston (who also have Beverley and Ariza) and what they bring offensively to Harden's game from both spacing, decoy and pick and roll perspectives. I'm not talking about 3 players, I'm talking about the entire rotation. I have written consistently on this all season and I provided detailed stats a few weeks back which showed how many (for example) players Houston had who shot (from memory) over 6 3's a game. From memory again Houston had 6 or 7 and OKC had one (Westbrook). So you've 6 or 7 noted 3 point shooters, 2 very solid pick and roll centres and harden at PG and crucially playing a run and gun offence. And you're going to compare that to OKCs? Seriously? But even if you disagree with me and just say this is just my opinion and what would I know.....I'm not the only one with these opinions - many, many journalists have written about this and I've referenced those too.

And I also said if you switch them both teams lose more games as neither is suited to the other teams style - Houston as Russ is not the same type of PG Harden is and OKC lose more because Harden doesn't have the assets to finish his assist the way Houston does.

Finally, whoever referenced Curry and PERs, the player with the highest PER over the last 4 years (combined) in the NBA is Steph Curry - and by a country mile. I'm on the phone but can't link it or even search for it now, but it's on si.com OR espn.com somewhere. And it's within the last month. Really interesting article. As for the playoffs last year he was injured. If you don't think that affects players I really don't know what to say to that. The smallest thing throws off even the greats. Look at Lebron in the cramp game v Spurs a few years ago. I could give many other examples. What will it take for you to say he's great? A Finals MVP? Let me guess, even if he wins that it's because he had Durant and Klay and Green as team mates? But it's Ok for Lebron to have Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie etc.? fact is I don't think he's the type of player whose ego demands that he be MVP and his behaviour over the years re. contract etc. shows this. I meant to return to the issue I raised one stage this season about him sacrificing for the good of the team but I havem't had time. I will some day.

Lebron: my "hatred" of Lebron as you guys call it is largely based on hs behaviour around The Decision and all the things around that (No. 1 factor and still an utterly classless act the way he did it), his whinging, his moaning, his acting/flopping, his travelling, his superstar preferential treatment from refs, and various other things he does incl. not taking the responsibility some times when the game is on the line amongst other things. I've never said he was a crap player. Ever. He's the best player and most physically gifted player in the league, is surrounded by talent and still moans about it. Have you heard Westbrook say a single negative thing about his team or teammates this yea? And he has been dealt a sh*t hand in fairness.

Really have to go now but I'm looking forward to the comments this will likely receive......

ButtersSuki · 20-04-2017 8:58pm

brady23 wrote: »

I still struggle with this idea that Westbrooks supporting cast is weaker than Hardens especially prior to the trade deadline.

No doubts the system is better suited to the players but as I previously said if you asked someone prior to the start of the season who do you want Kanter, Adams, Oladipo or Anderson, Beverley, Gordon?
I personally think more would pick OKCs three, it's not exactly a clear cut choice that the Rockets three are better.

Win shares, PER and subjective opinion prior to the start of this season would not give any sort of advantage to Rockets supporting cast so I don't think that's true.

Also the Westbrook smallest to average 10 boards is a poor indicator of anything.
It's pretty clear he's been hunting for boards.
I don't think it's as true of points or assists but it's definitely true of boards.

You say he's getting an unfair amount of criticism but unfortunately as you stated before the better players should be held to a higher standard and Westbrook has taken a leap this year to where he's solely accountable for the success of his team.

He's obviously done his job to a point by getting his team to the playoffs but triple doubles and 50 points a game etc are less and less relevant now, its all about winning and OKC blew a great opportunity to steal one from the Rockets and when you are doing it all yourself you have to deal with the criticism that comes along with it.
He made bad decisions towards the end of game, that's what matters not that he got whatever stat line.

He said "f*** the stat line, we lost". He was taking responsibility.

brady23 · 20-04-2017 9:35pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

brady23 wrote: »

I still struggle with this idea that Westbrooks supporting cast is weaker than Hardens especially prior to the trade deadline.

No doubts the system is better suited to the players but as I previously said if you asked someone prior to the start of the season who do you want Kanter, Adams, Oladipo or Anderson, Beverley, Gordon?
I personally think more would pick OKCs three, it's not exactly a clear cut choice that the Rockets three are better.

Win shares, PER and subjective opinion prior to the start of this season would not give any sort of advantage to Rockets supporting cast so I don't think that's true.

Also the Westbrook smallest to average 10 boards is a poor indicator of anything.
It's pretty clear he's been hunting for boards.
I don't think it's as true of points or assists but it's definitely true of boards.

You say he's getting an unfair amount of criticism but unfortunately as you stated before the better players should be held to a higher standard and Westbrook has taken a leap this year to where he's solely accountable for the success of his team.

He's obviously done his job to a point by getting his team to the playoffs but triple doubles and 50 points a game etc are less and less relevant now, its all about winning and OKC blew a great opportunity to steal one from the Rockets and when you are doing it all yourself you have to deal with the criticism that comes along with it.
He made bad decisions towards the end of game, that's what matters not that he got whatever stat line.

He said "f*** the stat line, we lost". He was taking responsibility.

What else would an athlete say??

brady23 · 20-04-2017 9:36pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Ok,

So here's the thing......

If Westbrook shoots 30+ times and scores a triple double and they win it's fine, but if they lose it's not? You can't say it's an amazing performance if they win and he's fully responsible for the loss and the cause if they lose. At least be consistent on it.

Take 2 recent games, the Orlando and the Denver 50+ point trip dubs. He went insane in the 4th quarter of each game completely taking over and effectively single handedly winning each won (largely) on his own. Take the last play in each of those games in regulation - huge threes from far out to tie and win respectively. Were they extremely high degree of difficulty shots? Yes. Were they bad shots? Yes in one way, but because they go in they're judged by some/most not to be. The shots didn't go in last night and he made some bad decisions in the 4th quarter. Did he have a sh*t game? No. Would they be within an asses roar of Houston in the 4th if he didn't play the same way in quarters 1-3? No. The shots went in early, they didn't fall in the 4th. Sometimes they fall, sometimes they don't. That happens. If two of those shots fall they win. What you can't deny is he had an amazing first 3 quarters last night. Did he make a lot of poor decisions and take some very bad shots last night in the 4th. Yes. I'm not saying he didn't. Not at all. But the criticism he gets is a bit OTT and unfair IMO. AND AGAIN, I'M SAYING THIS A SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN HUGELY CRITICAL OF WESTBROOK OVER THE YEARS FOR HIS GUNNING AND HIS LACK OF PASSING. OKC won games this year they never should have won because he took over. Did he take on too much last night? Sure.

As for chasing rebounds? Do you have any idea how hard that is to do and what does to your body? I played at a high level and the physicality gets immeasurably tougher the higher you go. I've played with and against NBA players and the thing that always astonishes me is how much bigger they are physically in real life than they look on tv. Have you ever seen how wide the average 7 foot NBA player is, let alone tall? I have. Have you ever tried to rebound against a couple or more of 6'10" and above players? I have, and it knocks the steam out of you pretty quickly. You can chase rebounds in maybe a few games but if you do that over 82 games it will take its toll. HE DID NOT CHASE REBOUNDS FOR 82 GAMES. If you do that the rest of your game falls apart. His rebounding numbers for a player his size/any guard have always been impressive, this year he's improved that to historic level and he's labelled a chaser. Ah come on now. Give him some credit. Conversely if rebounds were so easy to accumulate, why didn't harden just tag on the 2 per game he need to record a triple double too? Answer? Because it's not actually that easy.

Roster - you named 3 players. You left out Capella and Nene for Houston (who also have Beverley and Ariza) and what they bring offensively to Harden's game from both spacing, decoy and pick and roll perspectives. I'm not talking about 3 players, I'm talking about the entire rotation. I have written consistently on this all season and I provided detailed stats a few weeks back which showed how many (for example) players Houston had who shot (from memory) over 6 3's a game. From memory again Houston had 6 or 7 and OKC had one (Westbrook). So you've 6 or 7 noted 3 point shooters, 2 very solid pick and roll centres and harden at PG and crucially playing a run and gun offence. And you're going to compare that to OKCs? Seriously? But even if you disagree with me and just say this is just my opinion and what would I know.....I'm not the only one with these opinions - many, many journalists have written about this and I've referenced those too.

And I also said if you switch them both teams lose more games as neither is suited to the other teams style - Houston as Russ is not the same type of PG Harden is and OKC lose more because Harden doesn't have the assets to finish his assist the way Houston does.

Finally, whoever referenced Curry and PERs, the player with the highest PER over the last 4 years (combined) in the NBA is Steph Curry - and by a country mile. I'm on the phone but can't link it or even search for it now, but it's on si.com OR espn.com somewhere. And it's within the last month. Really interesting article. As for the playoffs last year he was injured. If you don't think that affects players I really don't know what to say to that. The smallest thing throws off even the greats. Look at Lebron in the cramp game v Spurs a few years ago. I could give many other examples. What will it take for you to say he's great? A Finals MVP? Let me guess, even if he wins that it's because he had Durant and Klay and Green as team mates? But it's Ok for Lebron to have Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie etc.? fact is I don't think he's the type of player whose ego demands that he be MVP and his behaviour over the years re. contract etc. shows this. I meant to return to the issue I raised one stage this season about him sacrificing for the good of the team but I havem't had time. I will some day.

Lebron: my "hatred" of Lebron as you guys call it is largely based on hs behaviour around The Decision and all the things around that (No. 1 factor and still an utterly classless act the way he did it), his whinging, his moaning, his acting/flopping, his travelling, his superstar preferential treatment from refs, and various other things he does incl. not taking the responsibility some times when the game is on the line amongst other things. I've never said he was a crap player. Ever. He's the best player and most physically gifted player in the league, is surrounded by talent and still moans about it. Have you heard Westbrook say a single negative thing about his team or teammates this yea? And he has been dealt a sh*t hand in fairness.

Really have to go now but I'm looking forward to the comments this will likely receive......

First of all I'll tackle the Westbrook part.

You're making the assumption that Westbrook playing the way he does is the only way that OKC can win as many games as they have.
My argument is there is no evidence to show that is the case. You are suggesting that the reason Westbrook has to play the way he plays is because he has a weaker team, my argument is, if you look at the players each team has, OKC are not weaker but those players appear weaker this season because of the style OKC and Westbrook have used.

Your personal experiences of the difficulty of rebounding is irrelevant to the conversation, the fact you played a high level as you called it is irrelevant to this conversation as it was to the previous conversation you mentioned it in, if anything, if rebounding is that difficult then the PG shouldn't be throwing himself around trying to grab rebounds, he should instead leave it to the likes of Adams and Kanter both of whom are above the average rebounding rate historically for their positions. If the difficulty of rebounding is so great then Westbrooks pursuit of rebounds is poor leadership and poor play on his part as its going to adversely affect OKCs ability to win.

If you honestly think he didn't hunt for rebounds this year the way Rondo use to hunt assists you are genuinely deluded.

I'm not only talking about those 3 players but rather using them as an example, the same is true for the top 5 guys in the rotation prior to the All Star break Nene, Arizona, Beverley, Gordon, Anderson vs Oladipo, Adams, Kanter, Roberson and Sabonis(rookie I know). The roster last season is remarkably similar in terms of numbers and ability.

As far as PER goes, you mentioned a while ago that advanced stats don't get any more advanced that PER which is grossly untrue.
As I mentioned PER is arguably the most basic widely referenced advanced metric is basketball. It's very offensive heavy. Check where Kanter is on PER and see do you agree with that ranking of him.

Nobody is saying Curry isn't great, nobody is even saying he played bad in the playoffs per say, if you read the arguments it all stemmed from saying IT like Curry is affected by the same weaknesses, below average strength and below average defense which is true, hence why referencing Currys PER as nonsense because it doesn't weight defense as much as offense. Curry hasn't performed to the same level in finals as he has in the regular season. Why?? My point and the point of others is because he lacks the physicality and defense to be as effective similar to IT, that was the argument.

The point you mention how LeBron
didn't have great finals wasn't relevant to the conversation. Regarding the evident personal hatred of LBJ it's clear that the reasons aren't basketball related which is fair enough but it's clearly clouding your ability to judge him objectively.
Saying LBJ is the best player on the planet does not exactly mean you're not bias. It's widely accepted by almost everyone he's the best, it's everything else you say about him, for example needlessly using him as an example of someone failing in a Finals even though it was completely irrelevant to the argument.

ButtersSuki · 20-04-2017 9:37pm

brady23 wrote: »

What else would an athlete say??

I could be smart and say Melo would say he was thrilled with the line.

ButtersSuki · 20-04-2017 9:51pm

Comments in bold:

First of all I'll tackle the Westbrook part.

You're making the assumption that Westbrook playing the way he does is the only way that OKC can win as many games as they have.
My argument is there is no evidence to show that is the case. You are suggesting that the reason Westbrook has to play the way he plays is because he has a weaker team, my argument is, if you look at the players each team has, OKC are not weaker but those players appear weaker this season because of the style OKC and Westbrook have used.

I'm not the only one saying it. There are many journalists, commentators and former players far more knowledgeable than you and I who are saying the same this so take me out of it - are they all wrong too?

Your personal experiences of the difficulty of rebounding is irrelevant to the conversation That's your opinion. I think it's very relevant that I've played with and against NBA players insofar as I have experience in that area, the fact you played a high level as you called it is Senior Mens National Team is a relatively high level - "as I call it" irrelevant to this conversation as it was to the previous conversation you mentioned it in, if anything, if rebounding is that difficult then the PG shouldn't be throwing himself around trying to grab rebounds What? It's a team game? A PG shouldn't rebound?, he should instead leave it to the likes of Adams and Kanter both of whom are above the average rebounding rate historically for their positions. If the difficulty of rebounding is so great then Westbrooks pursuit of rebounds is poor leadership So soing everything you can to help your team is poor leadership now? and poor play on his part as its going to adversely affect OKCs ability to win.

If you honestly think he didn't hunt for rebounds this year the way Rondo use to hunt assists you are genuinely deluded. And again, I didn't say he didn't in some games, I said he didn't hunt in all 82. And as per the Rondo assist argument, he still had to do it.

I'm not only talking about those 3 players The actual example you gave was 3 so excuse me for commenting on that and clarifying but rather using them as an example, the same is true for the top 5 guys in the rotation prior to the All Star break Nene, Arizona, Beverley, Gordon, Anderson vs Oladipo, Adams, Kanter, Roberson and Sabonis(rookie I know). The roster last season is remarkably similar in terms of numbers and ability. Yes, but the coach and playing style are sompletely different and they're HUGE factors.

As far as PER goes, you mentioned a while ago that advanced stats don't get any more advanced that PER which is grossly untrue. I think I said "much" rather than "any" but regardless let's continue. I've also stated repeatedly that stats don't tell the full picture, but hey, let's ignore that comment too.
As I mentioned PER is arguably the most basic widely referenced advanced metric is basketball. It's very offensive heavy. Not debating that at all. Check where Kanter is on PER and see do you agree with that ranking of him.

Nobody is saying Curry isn't great, nobody is even saying he played bad in the playoffs per say, if you read the arguments it all stemmed from saying IT genuinely unfair to reference Thomas given his current personal issues IMO like Curry is affected by the same weaknesses, below average strength and below average defense which is true, hence why referencing Currys PER as nonsense because it doesn't weight defense as much as offense. Curry prior to becoming the star he is today had some epic Play Off games v Denver and San Antonio a few years ago btw Curry hasn't performed to the same level in finals as he has in the regular season.very few players do, it's the Finals after all Why?? My point and the point of others is because he lacks the physicality and defense to be as effective similar to IT, that was the argument. And again I'll say that its unfair to put the two of them in the same conversation.

The point you mention how LeBron
didn't have great finals wasn't relevant to the conversation. It is. the point you were making was Curry had a poor Finals. I was merely pointing out that so has "the King" early in his career and he has returned to the Finals and won MVPs. If Curry does so, will you guys acknowledge that or continue to nit pick? Seeing as you failed to comment on that? Regarding the evident personal hatred of LBJ it's clear that the reasons aren't basketball related which is fair enough Well at last we have an admission of that! but it's clearly clouding your ability to judge him objectively. I disagree, but hey, that's what these forums are for.
Saying LBJ is the best player on the planet does not exactly mean you're not bias. Ok. I'm not sure how much more objective I can be on his playing style after that comment. You admit yourself my comments are more personal in nature, yet when for exmaple I criticsed him not taking the last shot v Boston a few weeks back it was deemed as personal when it was entirely objective - and a view echoed by a lot of media in the US. Yet ti was personal because I said it.....? It's widely accepted by almost everyone he's the best, it's everything else you say about him, for example needlessly using him as an example of someone failing in a Finals even though it was completely irrelevant to the argument. And again...your opinion.

brady23 · 20-04-2017 10:20pm

Comments in Italics:

First of all I'll tackle the Westbrook part.

You're making the assumption that Westbrook playing the way he does is the only way that OKC can win as many games as they have.
My argument is there is no evidence to show that is the case. You are suggesting that the reason Westbrook has to play the way he plays is because he has a weaker team, my argument is, if you look at the players each team has, OKC are not weaker but those players appear weaker this season because of the style OKC and Westbrook have used.

I'm not the only one saying it. There are many journalists, commentators and former players far more knowledgeable than you and I who are saying the same this so take me out of it - are they all wrong too?
I'm not saying they're wrong but there is no evidence to show this is the only way for OKC to win but the difference in roster talent is not the the issue if you look at the numbers and even the eye test over the past few years

Your personal experiences of the difficulty of rebounding is irrelevant to the conversation That's your opinion. I think it's very relevant that I've played with and against NBA players insofar as I have experience in that area, the fact you played a high level as you called it is Senior Mens National Team is a relatively high level - "as I call it"
It is irrelevant to this conversation as it was to the previous conversation you mentioned it in, if anything, if rebounding is that difficult then the PG shouldn't be throwing himself around trying to grab rebounds What? It's a team game? A PG shouldn't rebound?, he should instead leave it to the likes of Adams and Kanter both of whom are above the average rebounding rate historically for their positions. If the difficulty of rebounding is so great then Westbrooks pursuit of rebounds is poor leadership So soing everything you can to help your team is poor leadership now? and poor play on his part as its going to adversely affect OKCs ability to win.

I won't get into the high level thing because its trivial, the fact you're using playing National league as a basis for this argument is just ridiculous in itself.
I think playing basketball at any level is completely irrelevant when it comes to critiquing if Westbrook hunts rebounds or not.
How in the world is your personal experiences of the difficulties of rebounding relevant to the difficulty of rebounding in the NBA and more importantly how is that relevant to whether he hunts for rebounds or not. It makes no sense.
My argument is Westbrooks obvious pursuit of rebounds potentially hinders his team and his ability to help the team in other areas. If he only hunted for them in certain games, can you pinpoint those games? Have you got a count of how many games he hunted for them in? Why would he hunt for them at all if it had a potential adverse effect on his teams ability to win?

If you honestly think he didn't hunt for rebounds this year the way Rondo use to hunt assists you are genuinely deluded. And again, I didn't say he didn't in some games, I said he didn't hunt in all 82. And as per the Rondo assist argument, he still had to do it.
Thats a debate for a different time regarding Rondo but I think hunting at all irrespective of how many times is a bad strategy, its not optimal

I'm not only talking about those 3 players The actual example you gave was 3 so excuse me for commenting on that and clarifying but rather using them as an example, the same is true for the top 5 guys in the rotation prior to the All Star break Nene, Arizona, Beverley, Gordon, Anderson vs Oladipo, Adams, Kanter, Roberson and Sabonis(rookie I know). The roster last season is remarkably similar in terms of numbers and ability. Yes, but the coach and playing style are sompletely different and they're HUGE factors.

I don't doubt that whatsoever but my point is that if coaching and style have the ability to get a team of similar ability to more wins then perhaps the approach of OKC/Westrbook/Presti/Donovan is not the best strategy, I don't think their strategy is maximizing their potential

As far as PER goes, you mentioned a while ago that advanced stats don't get any more advanced that PER which is grossly untrue. I think I said "much" rather than "any" but regardless let's continue. I've also stated repeatedly that stats don't tell the full picture, but hey, let's ignore that comment too.
As I mentioned PER is arguably the most basic widely referenced advanced metric is basketball. It's very offensive heavy. Not debating that at all. Check where Kanter is on PER and see do you agree with that ranking of him.

Ok if you say so, I'll assume you know the differences in PER and WS even though you didn't reply at time

Nobody is saying Curry isn't great, nobody is even saying he played bad in the playoffs per say, if you read the arguments it all stemmed from saying IT genuinely unfair to reference Thomas given his current personal issues IMO like Curry is affected by the same weaknesses, below average strength and below average defense which is true, hence why referencing Currys PER as nonsense because it doesn't weight defense as much as offense. Curry prior to becoming the star he is today had some epic Play Off games v Denver and San Antonio a few years ago btw Curry hasn't performed to the same level in finals as he has in the regular season.very few players do, it's the Finals after all Why?? My point and the point of others is because he lacks the physicality and defense to be as effective similar to IT, that was the argument. And again I'll say that its unfair to put the two of them in the same conversation.

Not referencing IT because of personal issues is total bull****. It's clear from what LL posted regarding his DBPM. A guy who's played at a high level like yourself knows that physicality and defense are bigger factors in the playoffs and that's where IT falls down. It's terrible what happened no doubts but he's not going to all of sudden become an even average post season defender when he's one of the weakest regular season defenders if a family member doesn't pass away, it didn't effect his ability to shoot did it? You were the one who said a big shot was psychologically tougher than a big block.
It's not putting their abilities in the same sentence by comparing it's simply looking at the fact they have similar areas of weakness which is extremely obvious to anyone.

The point you mention how LeBron
didn't have great finals wasn't relevant to the conversation. It is. the point you were making was Curry had a poor Finals. I was merely pointing out that so has "the King" early in his career and he has returned to the Finals and won MVPs. If Curry does so, will you guys acknowledge that or continue to nit pick? Seeing as you failed to comment on that? Regarding the evident personal hatred of LBJ it's clear that the reasons aren't basketball related which is fair enough Well at last we have an admission of that! but it's clearly clouding your ability to judge him objectively. I disagree, but hey, that's what these forums are for.
Saying LBJ is the best player on the planet does not exactly mean you're not bias. Ok. I'm not sure how much more objective I can be on his playing style after that comment. You admit yourself my comments are more personal in nature, yet when for exmaple I criticsed him not taking the last shot v Boston a few weeks back it was deemed as personal when it was entirely objective - and a view echoed by a lot of media in the US. Yet ti was personal because I said it.....? It's widely accepted by almost everyone he's the best, it's everything else you say about him, for example needlessly using him as an example of someone failing in a Finals even though it was completely irrelevant to the argument. And again...your opinion.

It's not opinion you referenced LBJ for no reason. I was never saying Curry failed or played bad. I just simply said his playing style does not translate well to the post season because he isn't physically imposing and his defense is weak. This is also true of IT. That is all it was about.
You brought up LBJ for no reason than to say well LBJ has had bad finals!!
Yes and your point is????
He didn't have them because of lack of physical ability or defense which was the crux of the conversation. It's not about having an opinion. You brought it in to the conversation even though it was completely irrelevant, there is no way to debate its relevance.

nerd69 · 21-04-2017 12:55am

I can't be the only kwahi for MVP guy

brady23 · 21-04-2017 1:14am

nerd69 wrote: »

I can't be the only kwahi for MVP guy

You're definitely not, that's who Zach Lowe voted for anyway. I wouldn't be surprised to see him finish 2nd

shamrock55 · 21-04-2017 1:41am

Bucks destroying raptors in that first qtr

brady23 · 21-04-2017 2:55am

What a game from LBJ, ridiculous comeback 26 points at one point near the end of the first half. Far and away the biggest takeaway from that game though was Love and Irving sitting for the entire 4th quarter.
It worked tonight but that does not bode well moving forward. George showing he's worth the 200m contract. If he gets voted to an All NBA team he can gets the 200m contract but if not "just" 5 year max, I think that's the difference between staying and going but his value is shooting up, he played unbelievable too.

21-04-2017 3:13am

oh dear, oh dear, oh dear

21-04-2017 3:18am

Matt Devlin (a tv commentator) for the Raptors tried to claim that it went this way because the raptors player are not used to being in this building when it is so loud. Then he repeats that joke of an excuse again later in the game!

Then he just starts pulling out favourable stats like 'The raptors have the 4th best record in the NBA if you combine all games over the last 4 seasons'...nobody fùcking gives a **** you shill!

At least the co-commentator, Jack Armstrong (eventually) called the coach out saying you cannot put Demare Carroll starting the next game and implied mistakes were made by Casey this game which was refreshing to hear.

LuckyLloyd · 21-04-2017 5:06am

LeBron, ****ing hell. He refused to be beaten tonight. What a monster.

ButtersSuki · 21-04-2017 7:34am

Raptors by numbers: points Qs1-3 in order - 12,18,16.
Wow.

shamrock55 · 21-04-2017 9:03am

Raptors were shocking shocking shocking,derozan with 8 points and 2 assists,id do better myself,bucks hot favs now id say and rightly so,raps obviously fear the dear

K.O.Kiki · 21-04-2017 11:29am

Playoffs LeBron has arrived.

https://streamable.com/dgnh8

LuckyLloyd · 21-04-2017 11:35am

I think it's easy to be blase about the type of performance he put up in the second half last night because we've become so used to seeing it time and time again. But really, he was utterly phenomenal while playing the whole second half. This stuff is outrageous folks. You're watching the greatest player of all time still playing like it's his peak. He will likely hit a wall over the next couple of years to some extent so enjoy it while you can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnDkj0K8nnA

21-04-2017 2:55pm

shamrock55 wrote: »

Raptors were shocking shocking shocking,derozan with 8 points and 2 assists,id do better myself,bucks hot favs now id say and rightly so,raps obviously fear the dear

All 8 point from FT so 0% FG! 0 blocks, 0 steals, 2 assists

NoelJRyan · 21-04-2017 3:42pm

LeBron must have been pissed at all this MVP talk and him not being in the equation! What a performance.

rushfan · 21-04-2017 4:53pm

Yahoo reporting that Rondo is out indefinitely with a fractured right thumb. Somehow, the series isn't quite over maybe.

NufcNavan · 21-04-2017 6:29pm

PG can't win. He really can't win. If Paul keeps dishing to guys who miss, he's a cowardly player who doesn't deserve any credit because a REAL star would put the team on his back. If he takes over the ball and has a near triple-double with 36 points he's selfish and his selfishness is why the team lost.

brady23 · 21-04-2017 8:42pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think it's easy to be blase about the type of performance he put up in the second half last night because we've become so used to seeing it time and time again. But really, he was utterly phenomenal while playing the whole second half. This stuff is outrageous folks. You're watching the greatest player of all time still playing like it's his peak. He will likely hit a wall over the next couple of years to some extent so enjoy it while you can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnDkj0K8nnA

He's insanely good and that was one of the All time great playoff performances.
That said, I really do think that benching Love and Kyrie for the 4tg quarter does not bode well for the team moving forward.

They can't afford to have them underperform if they're to beat a GSW or Spurs

BTW bold statement about the greatest ever.
I wonder what LBJ would have to do to be universally recognized as the best ever.
I mean does 5 or 6 championships make him the best ever.
95%+ pick Jordan I can't imagine what would get a similar % of people picking LBJ.

NufcNavan · 22-04-2017 1:11am

The 4th Q worked so well because Lebron was playing so well and he was surrounded by 4 shooters.

brady23 · 22-04-2017 1:37am

NufcNavan wrote: »

The 4th Q worked so well because Lebron was playing so well and he was surrounded by 4 shooters.

Well Kyrie and Love shoot 40% and 37% from 3 point range so they're very capable shooters.

Yeah I don't know, clearly Lue didnt think they were performing well enough. I think both have got better defensively in the regular season at least but the playoffs are a different animal. That's their weakness.

LeBron was definitely rolling with that line up though no doubts. I can see him sitting Love in the 4th but Kyrie was a surprise

McLoughlin · 22-04-2017 1:26pm

brady23 wrote: »

He's insanely good and that was one of the All time great playoff performances.
That said, I really do think that benching Love and Kyrie for the 4tg quarter does not bode well for the team moving forward.

They can't afford to have them underperform if they're to beat a GSW or Spurs

BTW bold statement about the greatest ever.
I wonder what LBJ would have to do to be universally recognized as the best ever.
I mean does 5 or 6 championships make him the best ever.
95%+ pick Jordan I can't imagine what would get a similar % of people picking LBJ.

Rings help Kobe had Jordan's shadow over him for a few years but no one goes one about Robert Horry seven in the 90s and 00s or even Steve Kerr's five. Are they better than Lebron because they have more rings no

Lebron has what 5 or 6 ish years left playng but the work load he has put on his body over the last 7 years might shorten that span. He could get

I don't think he will be universally recognized when he retires top 5 at least his arrogance with the whole decision thing and the not one but seven line didn't do him any favors