US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

Gatling

archer22 wrote: »

Everybody in the region is claiming the South China Sea and contrary to western propaganda China is not the only one who has grabbed

No china have laid claim to the majority of it ,

Nobody else has

archer22

archer22 wrote: »

So?
Britain and France for example claim Islands in the Pacific, Indian Ocean, Carribean, and South Atlantic....hell of a sight further away from them than the South China Sea is from China.

Great argument and well executed. I'm no match for this level of logic so I'll give this one to you.

archer22

Gatling wrote: »

No china have laid claim to the majority of it ,

Nobody else has

Well if "Nobody else has" then it's uncontested hence no dispute .

Cheerful Spring

CNN have just released a new documentary about North Korea. Interesting watch. It looks like Kim is trying to modernize his country. Find interesting there is a burger and fries business located in Pyongyang.

aloyisious

archer22 wrote: »

Well if "Nobody else has" then it's uncontested hence no dispute .

T'would be great if China was not in the process of seizing control of waters recognized by most other nations as international waters with maritime traffic routes. BTW the above process China is involved in is very much contested by others so there is a major dispute going on.

flaneur

@Gatling : for the same reason that people haven't indefinitely held a grudge against many other countries who were historically enemies.

The reality has changed very dramatically over the past few decades.

The risk in the area is not 21st century China, it's North Korea.

archer22

aloyisious wrote: »

T'would be great if China was not in the process of seizing control of waters recognized by most other nations as international waters with maritime traffic routes. BTW the above process China is involved in is very much contested by others so there is a major dispute going on.

Yes I know its disputed, my comment was sarcasm at the comment made by the other poster.

China is only one player in the game...and it does not possess all the islands in the South China Sea.
The other claimants also have overlapping claims on islands occupied by each other.For example in the 1980s Vietnam nicked an Island from the Philippines by waiting for the Filipino troops to leave the island to go on leave and then inserting their own troops on the Island.The Philippines has never got it back.

Indeed it is quite possible that this dispute could cause a regional war if China was not involved...the other claimants such as Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Philippines are pretty much in the same weight division so might fancy a try at getting what they regard as rightfully theirs by force.
So I don't think China withdrawing would solve the problem...indeed it might well make it worse.
Again America needs to keep its nose out of the row and stop inflaming the issue.
Let them discuss and sort out the issue among themselves...the discussions by the Philippines and China recently went well, with Filipino fishermen being allowed back into some of the Islands nearest to the Philippines.

ilkhanid

archer22 wrote: »

So?
Britain and France for example claim Islands in the Pacific, Indian Ocean, Carribean, and South Atlantic....hell of a sight further away from them than the South China Sea is from China.

Claim or occupy? If the latter are they the subject of dispute, or are they on other state's doorsteps? These are old settled territories and the disputes between Western powers and others are dormant for the most part.

Gatling wrote: »

No china have laid claim to the majority of it ,Nobody else has

Other states claim islands near to their territorial waters. China's claims are large in scope and contentious.

archer22 wrote: »

Indeed it is quite possible that this dispute could cause a regional war if China was not involved...the other claimants such as Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Philippines are pretty much in the same weight division so might fancy a try at getting what they regard as rightfully theirs by force.
So I don't think China withdrawing would solve the problem...indeed it might well make it worse.
Again America needs to keep its nose out of the row and stop inflaming the issue.
Let them discuss and sort out the issue among themselves...the discussions by the Philippines and China recently went well, with Filipino fishermen being allowed back into some of the Islands nearest to the Philippines.

So the USA is "inflaming the issue" by supporting it's regional alies, whereas China's flagrant desire to rewrite the map in it's own favour is not?

flaneur wrote: »

The issue China has with South Korea is more than it's militarily a subset of the United States.
What might actually work is South Korea cutting the apron strings, becoming more independent of the US and also befriending China.If China and South Korea for example held some kind of joint defence exercises without US involvement that might see a major shift in the situation.

....and the reason for that is North Korea. If the North Korean threat became dormant, then South Korean wouldn't need US troops on it's soil. South Korea would be able to "cut the apron strings". In fact South Korean relations with China have not been characterised by hostility ;they have , as far as I know, no outstanding territorial disputes with China and the abatement of the threat from the North would improve them substantially. I feel that China would like to slowly detach South Korea from the American sphere through trade-they'd be a far more civilised interlocutor with a lot more to offer-but it's that fat Kim fool and his obsessions that are standing in the way. That and the geo-strategic position of North Korea....and possibly a sentimental attachment on the part of the Old Guard in Beijing.

flaneur wrote: »

I think the reality is the US needs to accept that it shouldn't really be a major power in that region and that the countries there need to see develop a grown up relationship with China.

1. Whether the US should be a power in the region is up to the states of that region.
2. Would that consist in accepting Chinese hegemony and everything that goes with it? If that is the case, then the smaller states will have no desire for the US to depart the region. They have struggled for over a century to escape the shadow of Western colonialism and I doubt they want to see a replacement in the shape of China.

archer22 wrote: »

The Philippines has started moving in the direction you outline...a case of adjusting to the new reality in the region.

Or bending the kneee, in other words. Maybe Cuba should have adjusted to the reality of it's powerful neighbour-back in the day.

flaneur wrote: »

I don't really see any evidence of China likely to grow into a belligerent state. The dispute over the islands seems to be more about China telling the US in particular to get its nose out of regional affairs in an area it has no business being in the first place

Really? So it's bullying small states to send a message to the USA? Doesn't seem very "grown-up" behaviour to me. Maybe Vietnam, Japan, Malaysia and other smaller regional states should be the judge of whose nose they want in the area, and not China.

flaneur wrote: »

I mean can you really imaging the US accepting Chinese military presence in Latin America for example?

It had to accept a Soviet military presence in Cuba for quite a while, as I recall, and I doubt that you had any complaints with that. Yet it seems that you'd deny the same rights to East Asian states to accept support from whoever will provide it.

archer22

ilkhanid wrote: »

Claim or occupy? If the latter are they the subject of dispute, or are they on other state's doorsteps? These are old settled territories and the disputes between Western powers and others are dormant for the most part.



Other states claim islands near to their territorial waters. China's claims are large in scope and contentious.



So the USA is "inflaming the issue" by supporting it's regional alies, whereas China's flagrant desire to rewrite the map in it's own favour is not?



....and the reason for that is North Korea. If the North Korean threat became dormant, then South Korean wouldn't need US troops on it's soil. South Korea would be able to "cut the apron strings". In fact South Korean relations with China have not been characterised by hostility ;they have , as far as I know, no outstanding territorial disputes with China and the abatement of the threat from the North would improve them substantially. I feel that China would like to slowly detach South Korea from the American sphere through trade-they'd be a far more civilised interlocutor with a lot more to offer-but it's that fat Kim fool and his obsessions that are standing in the way. That and the geo-strategic position of North Korea....and possibly a sentimental attachment on the part of the Old Guard in Beijing.



1. Whether the US should be a power in the region is up to the states of that region.
2. Would that consist in accepting Chinese hegemony and everything that goes with it? If that is the case, then the smaller states will have no desire for the US to depart the region. They have struggled for over a century to escape the shadow of Western colonialism and I doubt they want to see a replacement in the shape of China.



Or bending the kneee, in other words. Maybe Cuba should have adjusted to the reality of it's powerful neighbour-back in the day.



Really? So it's bullying small states to send a message to the USA? Doesn't seem very "grown-up" behaviour to me. Maybe Vietnam, Japan, Malaysia and other smaller regional states should be the judge of whose nose they want in the area, and not China.



It had to accept a Soviet military presence in Cuba for quite a while, as I recall, and I doubt that you had any complaints with that. Yet it seems that you'd deny the same rights to East Asian states to accept support from whoever will provide it.

The last 2 posts you quote aren't even mine!!, though you put my name on them...how and for what purpose did you do that

ilkhanid

archer22 wrote: »

The last 2 posts you quote aren't even mine!!, though you put my name on them...how and for what purpose did you do that

Pardon me. I was integrating two posts, cutting and pasting and got muddled. I will fix directly

archer22

ilkhanid wrote: »

Pardon me. I was integrating two posts, cutting and pasting and got muddled. I will fix directly

Ok, anyhow to get back to your post...you might not have heard but the Philippine leader has numerous times expressed great hatred for the United States and a desire for closer relations with China....Vietnam has no love for America either for obvious reasons...so much for America supporting its 'allies' :rolleyes:.

America is only there to stir up trouble.

BTW if you want to know why the Philippine leader hates America just google Michael Terrence Meiring and the CIA bombings in southern Philippines in 2002 which killed Children and street vendors...another case of America trying to stir up trouble.
And what utter contempt it showed for innocent citizens of an allied country and for the country itself :mad:

Gatling

archer22 wrote: »

Ok, anyhow to get back to your post...you might not have heard but the Philippine leader has numerous times expressed great hatred for the United States and a desire for closer relations with China....Vietnam has no love for America either for obvious reasons...so much for America supporting its 'allies' :rolleyes:.

America is only there to stir up trouble.

So why is american forces fighting in the Philippines on behalf of the Philippines government ,
And why has the government of Vietnam asked america to open a military base in the country and for several decades been working with the Vietnamese in country ,

Duarte just wants new toys for the military and made if look like he doesn't want american when all he wants is new stuff for the military at cheapest price possible ,

Conspiracy theories don't mean Truth

archer22

archer22 wrote: »

America is only there to stir up trouble.

It's a tricky balance. On one hand, they must show a presence in ther region to prevent China expanding, and at the same time, if they show too much presence they create too much friction.

While I don't particularly like US foreign policy, their past interests have kept the peace in that region, stopping China from invading Taiwan, or China settling scores with Japan. The fear of the US stepping into a major conflict prevented a major conflict...

And what utter contempt it showed for innocent citizens of an allied country and for the country itself :mad:

They're a superpower. Get over it. Every country with any real power dabbles in the affairs of other smaller counties.. they just can't resist it. China and Russia are no different.

4068ac1elhodqr

Found myself humming along to an old Elton John pop-tune earlier, not sure why, don't even like him:

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They're a superpower. Get over it. Every country with any real power dabbles in the affairs of other smaller counties.. they just can't resist it. China and Russia are no different.

They don't like talking about that ,

Evie Big Troop

Evie Big Troop wrote: »

Found myself humming along to an old Elton John pop-tune earlier, not sure why, don't even like him:

I've got Credence- Fortunate Son going. seems appropriate

Cheerful Spring

Deleted User wrote: »

I've got Credence- Fortunate Son going. seems appropriate

Rocket man lol.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

So why is american forces fighting in the Philippines on behalf of the Philippines government ,
And why has the government of Vietnam asked america to open a military base in the country and for several decades been working with the Vietnamese in country ,

Duarte just wants new toys for the military and made if look like he doesn't want american when all he wants is new stuff for the military at cheapest price possible ,

Conspiracy theories don't mean Truth

America sends allies aid packages. Duterte does not want to give that up too.

ilkhanid

archer22 wrote: »

....Vietnam has no love for America either for obvious reasons...so much for America supporting its 'allies'

Vietnam has a long memory. It remembers the American War. It also remembers that the last foreign army wrecking havoc on it's soil was....Chinese. It remembers that China was interfering in the land now called Vietnam many hundreds of years before the first white man set foot on the Americas (and that is probably the Vikings). The enemy next door is a greater threat than the enemy over the hill.

archer22 wrote: »

BTW if you want to know why the Philippine leader hates America just google.....

I'd doubt any honest emotion from a lawless killer like Duterte.

Deleted User wrote: »

They're a superpower. Get over it. Every country with any real power dabbles in the affairs of other smaller counties.. they just can't resist it.

The small countries bear responsibility too. They encourage and enable the big powers-always did-in the hopes of exploiting them and of gaining a leg up on detested neighbours or utilising them in domestic disputes. When Russia, the USA, the USSR, Britain, Spain, France and all the rest of them were doing their stuff all across the globe, somebody was always cleaning up, reaping the benefit.

AMKC

Evie Big Troop wrote: »

Found myself humming along to an old Elton John pop-tune earlier, not sure why, don't even like him:

What a deluded idiot Trump is and how out of touch with the rest of the World he is. Long gas lines really. I don,t think there is enough cars in North Korea to form a line never mind long gas lines.

archer22

Evie Big Troop wrote: »

Found myself humming along to an old Elton John pop-tune earlier, not sure why, don't even like him:

Kim Jong Un has the leader of the so called "greatest nation on Earth" reduced to tweeting childish nonsense :pac:
How entertaining and how embarrassing it must be for Americans (and their groupies) to watch this.

Well done KJU

suicide_circus

archer22 wrote: »

Kim Jong Un has the leader of the so called "greatest nation on Earth" reduced to tweeting childish nonsense :pac:
How entertaining and how embarrassing it must be for Americans (and their groupies) to watch this.

Well done KJU

You're not even trying any more.

archer22

suicide_circus wrote: »

You're not even trying any more.

No need to just a case of sit back with a bag of popcorn and watch Trump go from dumb to dumber :cool: ....but then I suppose the poor old fool is under a lot of stress and we should have some sympathy for him :pac:

BillyBobBS

archer22 wrote: »

Kim Jong Un has the leader of the so called "greatest nation on Earth" reduced to tweeting childish nonsense :pac:
How entertaining and how embarrassing it must be for Americans (and their groupies) to watch this.

Well done KJU

Okay comrade.

ilkhanid

ilkhanid wrote: »

Vietnam has a long memory. It remembers the American War. It also remembers that the last foreign army wrecking havoc on it's soil was....Chinese. It remembers that China was interfering in the land now called Vietnam many hundreds of years before the first white man set foot on the Americas (and that is probably the Vikings). The enemy next door is a greater threat than the enemy over the hill.

The Vietnamese hate the Chinese similar to how I remember a lot of Irish people hating the English 20-25 years ago.. Just a normal thing to hear people talking about and I don't think I've ever had one student say a kind word about China. They love their TV shows though.

Apart from some older people, most Vietnamese people like America.
The meal Obama had when he visited is called Bun Cha and after he left, so many Bun Cha restaurants starting selling a special Bun Cha Obama dish. Pretty funny seeing his name everywhere for a few months.

Timberrrrrrrr

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Okay comrade.

You don't find trumps tweets childish?

ohnonotgmail

archer22 wrote: »

Kim Jong Un has the leader of the so called "greatest nation on Earth" reduced to tweeting childish nonsense :pac:
How entertaining and how embarrassing it must be for Americans (and their groupies) to watch this.

Well done KJU

trump doesnt need any help to do that.

Nettle Soup

Evie Big Troop wrote: »

Found myself humming along to an old Elton John pop-tune earlier, not sure why, don't even like him:

What an idiot Trump is...his presidency will end in a damp squib.
I just hope America can learn to forget their stupidity.

4068ac1elhodqr

One possible blue-sky solution towards (world) peace, would be to persuade Rocketman & Co, to attack Niribu
- which is due to appear in t-5days (23rd) according to folklore, scripture and those great bunch of lads, the ancient Sumerians.



To be taken with a dose pinch of salt, but the all the tabloids have been banging on about it for weeks now.
On the plus side, imagine all the great surfing there would be if 'Planet X' started to affect earth's gravitational waves.

If it does actually show up... Too bad!

MadYaker

Rocket man :pac: I still can't believe that orange clown is president of the US, what a time to be alive!