US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

ilkhanid

RobertKK wrote: »

Used VX gas in Malaysia's main airport.

In the 1983 Rangoon bombing aimed at the South Korean president, as well as 17 South Korean politicians and officials, they killed 4 Burmese civilians.
As well as 101 South Korean people, they killed a lebanese national and an Indian national, when they bombed Korean Air 858 in 1987. For a supposed peace-loving country as it's defenders here paint it, it seems to have a rather careless way of making other countries into enemies: Japan, Burma, Malaysia....

donegaLroad wrote: »

ok.... if you can afford it you can go to an Ivy League university.... but at the same time in the US, the epidemic of student debt is very sobering.

All very well, but my point remains. No matter the (real) shortcomings of the American education system, or any other first World or even Third World education system, there is no comparison with North Korea. Never mind the USA,China, Bolivia, Ireland,Indonesia, they all have a better education system. No books, (except doubtless technical ones), no Web, no access to periodicals (except narrowly technical ones), no phones, no radio, all education obsessed with the glories of Korea...do you think the education system in Nazi Germany was better than that of, say, Britain at the time?

Discodog

The problem is that MAD stops nuclear states from ever wanting to attack. However Kim & his cronies have nice safe bunkers & he doesn't give a **** about the population. So he just might, for the sake of Korean glory etc.

You could surround NK with anti missile defenses but only one has to get through. He's not going to give them up & he is going to keep developing more. Either the innocent population are killed by a US pre emptive conventional strike or by nuclear retaliation & or starvation.

ilkhanid

Discodog wrote: »

The problem is that MAD stops nuclear states from ever wanting to attack. However Kim & his cronies have nice safe bunkers & he doesn't give a **** about the population. So he just might, for the sake of Korean glory etc.

There is always this assumption that dictators are-at some level-rational. This does not always apply, as history shows us. Look at Mao, the nearest distator of a like bent. Mao shrugged off the deaths of thirty million of his people as a detail, he provoked civil strife that killed a million people as a necessary sacrifice to remove inconvenient cadres. He was on record as saying that the deaths of half the Chinese population (no mention of the toll on the rest of the world) might be a price worth paying to ensure the victory of "socialism". Luckily he either mellowed with time, or wiser counsels prevailed.

donegaLroad

ilkhanid wrote: »

In the 1983 Rangoon bombing aimed at the Siuth Korean president, as well as 17 South Korean politicians and officials, they killed 4 Burmese civilians.
As well as 101 South Korean people, they killed a lebanese national and an Indian national, when they bombed Korwan Air 858 in 1987. For a supposed peace-loving country as it's defenders here paint it, it seems to have a rather careless way of making other countries into enemies: Burma, Malaysia....



All very well, but my point remains. No matter the (real) shortcomings of the American education system, or any other first World or even Third World education system, there is no comparison with North Korea. Never mind the USA,China, Bolivia, Ireland,Indonesia, they all have a better education system. No books, (except doubtless technical ones), no Web, no access to periodicals (except narrowly technical ones), no phones, no radio, all education obsessed with the glories of Korea...do you think the education system in Nazi Germany was better than that of, say, Britain at the time?

ok, given the choice of attending school in the US or NK is a no-brainer. You could draw many comparisons with the education system in Nazi Germany in the 30's & 40's and present day NK Im sure.. but yet the calibre of scientist that Nazi Germany produced was so high that the US poached 1,500 of them at the end of WW2, and transferred them to work in top research jobs in the US.. in what was known as Project Paperclip (as Im sure you've heard of)........

and to me, one of the biggest ironies in the world today, is that the US are supplying Israel with missiles which were in part designed by Nazi scientists, the most famous of which was Wernher von Braun. :eek:

PREG1967

donegaLroad wrote: »

ok, given the choice of attending school in the US or NK is a no-brainer. You could draw many comparisons with the education system in Nazi Germany in the 30's & 40's and present day NK Im sure.. but yet the calibre of scientist that Nazi Germany produced was so high that the US poached 1,500 of them at the end of WW2, and transferred them to work in top research jobs in the US.. in what was known as Project Paperclip (as Im sure you've heard of)........

and to me, one of the biggest ironies in the world today, is that the US are supplying Israel with missiles which were in part designed by Nazi scientists, the most famous of which was Wernher von Braun. :eek:

6 Degrees of separation. Sure anne frank was related to hitler to some degree. We humans like to divide to conquer but we are all brothers and sisters along the continum of human history. We share everything did you think we didnt? Did you think that we destroyed the ideas of those thought of as bad or evil? no we always stole the ideas of those we conquered

nacho libre

Discodog wrote: »

The problem is that MAD stops nuclear states from ever wanting to attack. However Kim & his cronies have nice safe bunkers & he doesn't give a **** about the population. So he just might, for the sake of Korean glory etc.

.

How long can he last in his bunker in the event of a nuclear winter. The thing about dictators is they enjoy power and the gilded life that comes with it. I think it is this calculation that will stop him from going too far. I also think there is a lot of over the top reactions here. China will get rid of Kim rather than let a war break out, they would likely to determine it as the least worst option for their country.

donegaLroad

PREG1967 wrote: »

6 Degrees of separation. Sure anne frank was related to hitler to some degree. We humans like to divide to conquer but we are all brothers and sisters along the continum of human history. We share everything did you think we didnt? Did you think that we destroyed the ideas of those thought of as bad or evil? no we always stole the ideas of those we conquered

Id say there would be very little worth stealing in NK, for whoever conquers it

PREG1967

nacho libre wrote: »

How long can he last in his bunker in the event of a nuclear winter. The thing about dictators is they enjoy power and the gilded life that comes with it. I think it is this calculation that will stop him from going too far. I also think there is a lot of over the top reactions here. China will get rid of Kim rather than let a war break out, they would likely to determine it as the least worst option for their country.

Nuclear winter is the severe global-climatic-cooling-effect that would occur if dor example Russia and the usa launched all their arsenals at each other and as a result into the atmosphere, there would be no change to global climate in the eventuality of an NK war and if there was the whole world would be affected in theory not just kim in his bunker

aloyisious

Something tells me that if Kim was seen heading to a bunker by the Chinese, there might be a change of leadership in NK, an accidental explosion at some weapon testing event. China has as much to lose by his actions as any nation with an alternative NK cabinet plan in its portfolio. They ain't fools.

Discodog

ilkhanid wrote: »

There is always this assumption that dictators are-at some level-rational. This does not always apply, as history shows us. Look at Mao, the nearest distator of a like bent. Mao shrugged off the deaths of thirty million of his people as a detail, he provoked civil strife that killed a million people as a necessary sacrifice to remove inconvenient cadres. He is on record as saying that the deaths of half the Chinese population (no mention of the toll on the rest of the world) might be a price worth paying to ensure the victory of "socialism". Luckily he either mellowed with time, or wiser counsels prevailed.

I remember hearing that Kim was educated in Switzerland but I have also read that it wasn't him but someone else. The danger comes when a dictator believes their own publicity. Hitler continued to believe that Germany would win long after it was obvious that they wouldn't. Kim may just believe that launching a Nuke is worth it.

He can't believe that MAD is going to protect NK.

Manic Moran

donegaLroad wrote: »

ok, given the choice of attending school in the US or NK is a no-brainer. You could draw many comparisons with the education system in Nazi Germany in the 30's & 40's and present day NK Im sure.. but yet the calibre of scientist that Nazi Germany produced was so high that the US poached 1,500 of them at the end of WW2, and transferred them to work in top research jobs in the US.. in what was known as Project Paperclip (as Im sure you've heard of)........

You are drawing an erroneous conclusion from that. It is true that the German scientists were more advanced in the area of rocketry, but this is not the result of the education system, it is the result of a mis-guided area of support from the German government. Whilst the German government was throwing resources at strategically irrelevant 'wunder-waffe' throughout the war, giving the German rocketeers lots of resources to experiment with, the US government was more practically focused, sending its own resources to support the engineers developing slightly more practical war-winning technologies, such as "How to make artillery more effective" (Resulting in computer technology (ENIAC) or miniaturised radar (VT Fuse) or "how to design or build the best vehicles or ships."

One side built fancy fireworks, the other side built the A-Bomb. What does that tell you about the relative education system? Basically nothing, it tells you where the focus of the country's practical development program was.

fxotoole

Discodog wrote: »

The problem is that MAD stops nuclear states from ever wanting to attack. However Kim & his cronies have nice safe bunkers & he doesn't give a **** about the population. So he just might, for the sake of Korean glory etc.

MAD doesn't apply in this case because North Korea aren't on the same level as the USA in terms of nukes. The US arsenal massively outweighs North Korea's. The consensus is that NK don't even have the technology to mount a warhead on an ICBM. So there would be no mutual destruction. It would be extremely one-sided.

China on the other hand, being NK's ally, may retaliate if the US nuked NK into oblivion.

ED E

fxotoole wrote: »

China on the other hand, being NK's ally, may retaliate if the US nuked NK into oblivion.

Think you're attributing far to much empathy/investment to China there. More likely "meh" and back to the status quo.

fxotoole

ED E wrote: »

Think you're attributing far to much empathy/investment to China there. More likely "meh" and back to the status quo.

Quite possibly, but once nukes start flying the world is ****ed anyway, so all bets are off.

Discodog

fxotoole wrote: »

Quite possibly, but once nukes start flying the world is ****ed anyway, so all bets are off.

The only scenario would be if NK used a Nuke against the South. The US would retaliate & China wouldn't get involved.

Zebra3

donegaLroad wrote: »

Id say there would be very little worth stealing in NK, for whoever conquers it

NK is very rich in minerals.

Also for the US it is a wet dream to occupy and bring more military bases closer to China. US aggression means their main aims are to surround Russia and China militarily. And they're quite good at it.

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

US aggression means surround Russia and China militarily. And they're quite good at it.

Really do tell us how America is surrounding both russia and China .....

srsly78

Zebra3 wrote: »

NK is very rich in minerals.

Also for the US it is a wet dream to occupy and bring more military bases closer to China. US aggression means their main aims are to surround Russia and China militarily. And they're quite good at it.

You know what happened last time US troops pushed through NK and got near the Chinese border right?

Also do you know what happened to the US general that wanted to push the nuke button at the time?

Gatling

srsly78 wrote: »

You know what happened last time US troops pushed through NK and got near the Chinese border right?

150-200,000 Chinese troops flooded over the border and overwhelmed a divided force , which directly led to today's situation in Korea

You can bet anything that's never going to happen again though ,

Zebra3

Gatling wrote: »

Really do tell us how America is surrounding both russia and China .....

Says a lot about your ignorance on these issues.

Go google maps of it. You don't see Russia or China with military bases around the US. Yet the US isn't the aggressor. :rolleyes:

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about your ignorance on these issues.

I'm not asking Google to show me , i asked you to explain how America has surrounded both russia and China ,

Manic Moran

The White House is asking the entire Senate to attend a briefing. This doesn't happen often on any subject at all.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/24/entire-us-senate-to-go-to-white-house-for-north-korea-briefing.html

Gatling

Manic Moran wrote: »

The White House is asking the entire Senate to attend a briefing. This doesn't happen often on any subject at all.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/24/entire-us-senate-to-go-to-white-house-for-north-korea-briefing.html

This coming after he says this .

Donald Trump has branded North Korea a "real threat" to the world and warned the "the status quo is unacceptable" in a meeting with the UN Security Council.

"The status quo in North Korea is also unacceptable," he said. "The council must be prepared to impose additional and stronger sanctions on North Korean nuclear and ballistic missile programs.

"This is a real threat to the world, whether we want to talk about it or not. North Korea is a big world problem and it's a problem that we have to finally solve.

"People put blindfolds on for decades and now it's time to solve the problem.'

ArchXStanton

Gatling wrote: »

This coming after he says this .

Donald Trump has branded North Korea a "real threat" to the world and warned the "the status quo is unacceptable" in a meeting with the UN Security Council.

"The status quo in North Korea is also unacceptable," he said. "The council must be prepared to impose additional and stronger sanctions on North Korean nuclear and ballistic missile programs.

"This is a real threat to the world, whether we want to talk about it or not. North Korea is a big world problem and it's a problem that we have to finally solve.

"People put blindfolds on for decades and now it's time to solve the problem.'

"Real threat to the world" this coming from the head of state of a country that's seems continuously at war, in countries far far away from its own borders to protect "muh freedoms" for the brainwashed idiots at home

Ideal scenario here,would be for them to take Kim out and then get bogged down in another Vietnam...A lot less idiots in the world

Beyondgone

Gatling wrote: »

This coming after he says this .

Donald Trump has branded North Korea a "real threat" to the world and warned the "the status quo is unacceptable" in a meeting with the UN Security Council.

"The status quo in North Korea is also unacceptable," he said. "The council must be prepared to impose additional and stronger sanctions on North Korean nuclear and ballistic missile programs.

"This is a real threat to the world, whether we want to talk about it or not. North Korea is a big world problem and it's a problem that we have to finally solve.

"People put blindfolds on for decades and now it's time to solve the problem.'

Kim-Gon-Soon?

Perhaps the master of loyalty-through-fear may be about to have that loyalty tested? If China has grown tired of his antics and has given a quiet, private nod to Trumpy to fire ahead, we may yet live in very interesting times.

Zebra3

srsly78 wrote: »

You know what happened last time US troops pushed through NK and got near the Chinese border right?

Also do you know what happened to the US general that wanted to push the nuke button at the time?

I know the last time the US was at war in Korea they killed about 3,000,000 people, dropped napalm all over the place.

Not surprised the N Koreans hate them.

Don't recall NK ever doing anything like that to the US but thankfully the United States of Amneisa makes sure that its' crimes don't get into the debate.

Zebra3

Gatling wrote: »

I'm not asking Google to show me , i asked you to explain how America has surrounded both russia and China ,

With military bases.

You don't see any Russian or Chinese military bases close to the continental US. You don't see Russian or Chinese navies operating close to the coast of California.

Yet for some reason the peace loving Americans end up close to their enemies.

As the Iranians said "sorry for placing our country close to your warships".

But yeah, the country of eternal war is not the problem. Always somebody else.

jackboy

Zebra3 wrote: »

I know the last time the US was at war in Korea they killed about 3,000,000 people, dropped napalm all over the place.

Not surprised the N Koreans hate them.

Don't recall NK ever doing anything like that to the US but thankfully the United States of Amneisa makes sure that its' crimes don't get into the debate.

The North Koreans don't hate America. They are told to hate America. I guarantee there are many many of them who would love to see them taking out the regime.

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

I know the last time the US was at war in Korea they killed about 3,000,000 people, dropped napalm all over the place.

Not surprised the N Koreans hate them.

Don't recall NK ever doing anything like that to the US but thankfully the United States of Amneisa makes sure that its' crimes don't get into the debate.

Yes that's pretty much the Korean War, US forces killing 3,000 people a day every day for three years and nothing else happening...

You know what makes them American's really tricky though? It's how they mind controlled those North Korean forces to steamroll over most of South Korean in the first place -cunning foxes!

If we might be serious for a moment, is it possible to have a debate on this issue without the usual 'the US is the biggest baddest evil in the world boo hiss'. I mean it's not like your making irrelevant points, the profligacy of US military bases for example, fascinating point, but completely undercut by this impression of the US you proffer, as some kind of deranged conquering menace eager to seize whatever land and loot it can.

jackboy

jackboy wrote: »

The North Koreans don't hate America. They are told to hate America. I guarantee there are many many of them who would love to see them taking out the regime.

They have an entire lifetime of anti west propaganda, plus a complete lack of access to outside information. You may assume that the North Koreans "want freedom", but most of them simply don't know what freedom is, let alone have any aspirations of the US taking out the regime, if anything, they'll defend the "dear leader" to death.