US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

MRnotlob606

preempt my big d&&k

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

I know the last time the US was at war in Korea they killed about

400,000 Chinese troops with another 450-480,000 injured,
North Korean​ soldiers killed 350,000
750,000 wounded .
1.2 million pows or mia

America lost 33,000 men and the UN combined with South Korea killed was 140,000 ,
500,000 wounded.

Seems the flag waving north Koreans got slaughtered compared to the UN forces

ceadaoin.

Manic Moran wrote: »

The White House is asking the entire Senate to attend a briefing. This doesn't happen often on any subject at all.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/24/entire-us-senate-to-go-to-white-house-for-north-korea-briefing.html

This has me very worried. Seriously want to leave and go back home now

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

They have an entire lifetime of anti west propaganda, plus a complete lack of access to outside information. You may assume that the North Koreans "want freedom", but most of them simply don't know what freedom is, let alone have any aspirations of the US taking out the regime, if anything, they'll defend the "dear leader" to death.

South Korean TV shows are really popular in NK. While they have limited knowledge, they know they live in an oppressive regime.

Zebra3

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Yes that's pretty much the Korean War, US forces killing 3,000 people a day every day for three years and nothing else happening...

You know what makes them American's really tricky though? It's how they mind controlled those North Korean forces to steamroll over most of South Korean in the first place -cunning foxes!

If we might be serious for a moment, is it possible to have a debate on this issue without the usual 'the US is the biggest baddest evil in the world boo hiss'. I mean it's not like your making irrelevant points, the profligacy of US military bases for example, fascinating point, but completely undercut by this impression of the US you proffer, as some kind of deranged conquering menace eager to seize whatever land and loot it can.

It's not an impression, it's a fact. The US is hell bent on global hegemony. If that means leaving half a million kids to die in Iraq so be it. If it means dropping chemical weapons on kids in Asia, so be it. If it means supporting dictatorships that behead people, so be it. If it means overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with tyrants who murder tens of thousands of people, so be it.

Do you actually believe that the US is some kind of benign, generous white knight?

Go ask the victims of US chemical weapons attacks in Vietnam. Might be difficult for you looking at a baby born with three heads and wondering why nobody has ever been held accountable for such evil war crimes.

Zebra3

Gatling wrote: »

400,000 Chinese troops with another 450-480,000 injured,
North Korean​ soldiers killed 350,000
750,000 wounded .
1.2 million pows or mia

America lost 33,000 men and the UN combined with South Korea killed was 140,000 ,
500,000 wounded.

Seems the flag waving north Koreans got slaughtered compared to the UN forces

I'm not sure what your point is.

I agree, carpet bombing kills vast amounts of people.

NK won't have forgotten what the US did to their country, hence now it wants to protect itself. Just look at what the US did to Libya.

CoolHandBandit

ceadaoin. wrote: »

This has me very worried. Seriously want to leave and go back home now

It doesnt look good at all tbh. Very possible Trump has seen enough intelligence to warrant military action against the North's nuclear missile program. The planning for an attack will have to be extremely accurate, vast and swift.

There is too much smoke now without fire.

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

NK won't have forgotten what the US did to their country, hence now it wants to protect itself. Just look at what the US did to Libya.

It should look at what Soviet Russia and China did by turning the country into a basket case compared with the peaceful , diverse ,and technological advanced south ,

You should save the fauxrage to something you have a bit more cop on about

ilkhanid

Zebra3 wrote: »

Also for the US it is a wet dream to occupy and bring more military bases closer to China. US aggression means their main aims are to surround Russia and China militarily. And they're quite good at it.

We can be sure that there will be no US bases close to the Chinese border, no matter what happens to the Kims.. The South Koreans want to keep on China's good side.

The US has bases in South Korea and Okinawa. hardly "surrounding" China.

Zebra3 wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is.
I agree, carpet bombing kills vast amounts of people.
NK won't have forgotten what the US did to their country, hence now it wants to protect itself. Just look at what the US did to Libya.

NK won't have forgotten what the US did to their country, the last time they ventured over the border. It follows, then,that the best way for North Korea to defend itself would be to leave South Korea strictly alone, to dial down the abuse and threats, to mend fences with Japan, to listen to the useful advice of it's neighbour China (who also lost a lot of people in the Korean War, remember) and, it goes without saying , stop constructing nuclear bombs.

Gatling wrote: »

It should look at what Soviet Russia and China did by turning the country into a basket case compared with the peaceful , diverse ,and technological advanced south

It could take some lessons from China on how that country turned from a Mao-jacketed,. flag-waving hellhole in to a modern country and a superpower.

Zebra3 wrote: »

You don't see any Russian or Chinese military bases close to the continental US. You don't see Russian or Chinese navies operating close to the coast of California.
Yet for some reason the peace loving Americans end up close to their enemies.
As the Iranians said "sorry for placing our country close to your warships".
But yeah, the country of eternal war is not the problem. Always somebody else.

It looks as if Nicaragua may be getting a Chinese base in the future..they're very pally with the Middle Kingdom.
The US ends up close to it's rivals for the reason that the countries surrounding those same rivals are wary of their powerful neighbours and want reassurance in the shape of American power. A process that works both ways, as the example of Cuba and the USSR demonstrates.

ScumLord

ilkhanid wrote: »

We can be sure that there will be no US bases close to the Chinese border, no matter what happens to the Kims.. The South Koreans want to keep on China's good side.

Don't they already have military bases in south Korea?

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not an impression, it's a fact. The US is hell bent on global hegemony. If that means leaving half a million kids to die in Iraq so be it. If it means dropping chemical weapons on kids in Asia, so be it. If it means supporting dictatorships that behead people, so be it. If it means overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with tyrants who murder tens of thousands of people, so be it.

Do you actually believe that the US is some kind of benign, generous white knight?

Go ask the victims of US chemical weapons attacks in Vietnam. Might be difficult for you looking at a baby born with three heads and wondering why nobody has ever been held accountable for such evil war crimes.

'It's a fact' - I see so you've managed to distil down the attitudes of a multi-party democracy with millions of voters into 'they want to dominate the world'? No sense of people not wanting their soldiers pissed away on foreign quagmires or not wanting to spend so much money on a bloated defence budget, just conquer the world?

As for your litany of dead kids, chemical weapons victims and head-choppers, I can only presume that this is a product of your view that not only is the US trying to rule the world, its also the only country with any agency in their actions? When someone chops someone's head off, I tend to blame the guy holding the sword, not look for some convoluted explanation about how if only the US hadn't invaded somewhere nearby, he wouldn't have felt the need to cut the head off some luckless soul living in the region for ages under a slightly different religion. Ditto with the point of North Korea - again no sense that the problem might have arisen from the North invading and steam-rolling over the country, just the US is to blame because it couldn't conduct a war free of civilian casualties?

The problem is not that I see the US as some white knight which I made clear in my previous post, the problem is you see them as nothing more than some all encompassing evil that rots whatever it touches, so much so that you cannot accept the idea that other people might do bad things, and other people might even do far worse.

ilkhanid

ScumLord wrote: »

Don't they already have military bases in south Korea?

Yes, and North Korea is sitting between the USA and the Chinese border.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

If people want to really understand North Korea, I suggest reading 'The Cleanest Race'. It's a fascinating book.

nacho libre

Zebra3 wrote: »

Do you actually believe that the US is some kind of benign, generous white knight?

Go ask the victims of US chemical weapons attacks in Vietnam. Might be difficult for you looking at a baby born with three heads and wondering why nobody has ever been held accountable for such evil war crimes.

He, Manic Moran, Gatling and others essentially believe, that America, while it might err, is a force for good in the world, and if it wasn't for America the evil communists would rule the world. So if there is an acknowledgement of US crimes- in their parlance, errors, unfortunate incidents, the kinder garden tactic will be employed- yes, but look what he is doing over there.

Irish Praetorian

nacho libre wrote: »

He, Manic Moran, Gatling and others essentially believe, that America, while it might err, is a force for good in the world, and if it wasn't for America the evil communists would rule the world. So if there is an acknowledgement of US crimes- in their parlance, errors, unfortunate incidents, the kinder garden tactic will be employed- yes, but look what he is doing over there.

Very kind of you to completely misconstrue my position after I had already set it out I'll restate it for your benefit; the US essentially serves as the least malign option in a world filled with bad options. People want to complain about US performance in the Korean War - would you prefer the entire Korean Peninsula ruled from Pyonyang? Would that be the morally superior position?

But of course it is far easier to simply stand on the sidelines and decry everyone else as being reprehensible if you simply avoid the difficult questions of 'what would the alternative be'?

Gatling

nacho libre wrote: »

He, Manic Moran, Gatling and others essentially believe,

Maybe you should just move on ,

Kindergarten tactics couldn't agree more

RobertKK

North Korea was compared to Nazi Germany by the UN a few years ago, with human rights breeches being rife.
I do believe this is a country that wants freedom from it's extremely oppressive leadership, but everybody lives in fear of the military and the rulers.

If Trump has gotten cooperation from China and the regime can be collapsed, it would be a huge achievement, I somewhat doubt it is that clear cut, but Trump is right that something needs to be done about this nation.
But getting the proper solution to end the regime is far from simple.

nacho libre

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Very kind of you to completely misconstrue my position after I had already set it out I'll restate it for your benefit; the US essentially serves as the least malign option in a world filled with bad options. People want to complain about US performance in the Korean War - would you prefer the entire Korean Peninsula ruled from Pyonyang? Would that be the morally superior position?

With respect I don't think i've misconstrued your position at all, you've just confirmed what i said;)
America might do bad things, but for you the alternative is far worse.

nacho libre

Gatling wrote: »

Maybe you should just move on ,

Kindergarten tactics couldn't agree more

I will, if you desist from selective quoting in order to avoid replying to the actual point of a post. I stand by what i said, you seek to minimize/justify US crimes on the basis that they are better than the alternative. You previously stated you don't think America has the moral authority to the be the world police force, but it really seems that you do afterall.Why else do you lend so much credence to their version of events. You'd be a tad more skeptical if it was something coming from the Kremlin for instance.

Gatling

nacho libre wrote: »

I will,

Please do , America this and America that got old after page 3 of the thread,
It all you can say is murica yada yada yada ,

Why bother at all

nacho libre

RobertKK wrote: »

But getting the proper solution to end the regime is far from simple.

I think the Americans are strong arming the Chinese with the senate move- do some thing about Kim, or we will. If China can't bring Kim to heel, they will seek to remove him.

nacho libre

Gatling wrote: »

Why bother at all

Indeed.
Selective quoting again from you. As per usual you are wrong, Gatling:)

seiphil

North Koreans had a massive show of force last night.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/25/north-korea-live-fire-drill-us-submarine-south-korea

Unfortunately I can't see anything other than a war happening. No side is backing down.

Don't think the North Koreans will be a pushover either.

Things will probably get very messy.

Cheerful Spring

seiphil wrote: »

North Koreans had a massive show of force last night.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/25/north-korea-live-fire-drill-us-submarine-south-korea

Unfortunately I can't see anything other than a war happening. No side is backing down.

Don't think the North Koreans will be a pushover either.

Things will probably get very messy.

Actually this is a good sign. Firing missiles and testing nukes is the problem.

North could be toning down it's hostility/.

Cheerful Spring

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Very kind of you to completely misconstrue my position after I had already set it out I'll restate it for your benefit; the US essentially serves as the least malign option in a world filled with bad options. People want to complain about US performance in the Korean War - would you prefer the entire Korean Peninsula ruled from Pyonyang? Would that be the morally superior position?

But of course it is far easier to simply stand on the sidelines and decry everyone else as being reprehensible if you simply avoid the difficult questions of 'what would the alternative be'?

America intervened in Vietnam for the same reason, to stop communism. The American army pulled out and Vietnam is a stable country, today and it allied with the United States.

Would North Korea be the same country as we know it now, if they pulled out there too? American interference is the reason North Korea has turned itself inward and developed a military based economy.

Irish Praetorian

nacho libre wrote: »

With respect I don't think i've misconstrued your position at all, you've just confirmed what i said;)
America might do bad things, but for you the alternative is far worse.

For me in what sense exactly? In terms of interpretation or in terms of material implications on myself? I dare say the argument that the US is the least bad power is not simply subjective but objective.

seiphil

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

seiphil wrote: »

North Koreans had a massive show of force last night.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/25/north-korea-live-fire-drill-us-submarine-south-korea

Unfortunately I can't see anything other than a war happening. No side is backing down.

Don't think the North Koreans will be a pushover either.

Things will probably get very messy.

Actually this is a good sign. Firing missiles and testing nukes is the problem.

North could be toning down it's hostility/.

I'm not sure of that. 
It seems to be the biggest military showing of all time I have seen reported. 
I seen some videos of it earlier and it didn't look like they were toning it down.

HenryHill

seiphil wrote: »

I'm not sure of that. 
It seems to be the biggest military showing of all time I have seen reported. 
I seen some videos of it earlier and it didn't look like they were toning it down.

Part of the celebration of the 85th anniversary of the army, apparently.

CoolHandBandit

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Actually this is a good sign. Firing missiles and testing nukes is the problem.

North could be toning down it's hostility/.

Don't think anything short of them overthrowing the dear leader and handing over the nukes is going to help now. The hawks in Washington have been held back for years under Obama and it's got Kim within a pubic hair of putting a nuclear warhead on a ICBM, Trump isn't making that mistake imo.

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

America intervened in Vietnam for the same reason, to stop communism. The American army pulled out and Vietnam is a stable country, today and it allied with the United States.

Would North Korea be the same country as we know it now, if they pulled out there too? American interference is the reason North Korea has turned itself inward and developed a military based economy.

Why should one country be the same as another? There is no reason that Korea should have the same historical trajectory as Vietnam any more than Hungary or the Czech Republic should be the same as the Netherlands. Every country has different cultural, historical,religious and geographical experiences that dictate different outcomes. And-0f course-you're forgetting a more pertinent example, that of Cambodia. Both Vietnam and Cambodia underwent similar experiences, suffering in the American war, but where one became a standard orthodox Communist autocracy (and later showed a degree of flexibility in taking the Chinese road),the other became the most horrendous dystopia known under a gang of genocidal maniacs. In these cases the nature of the rulers also had a lot to do with the outcomes. The Kims started off as just one brutal tyrant and with each generation the descent into inbred,delusional madness continues.
Other countries had negative historical experiences, others (Cuba is another Communist example) felt themselves besieged, but they all didn't turn into totalitarian dynastic nightmares. This argument makes as much sense as claiming that the Nazi episode was solely the fault of the way Germany was treated after Versailles. The Kim's security forces started mass killings as soon as they crossed the border in 1950.It's laughable to imagine that had these tyrants being only let had their way we'd all have been better off;and I'm pretty certain that if you went up to a modern South Korean and tried this patronising line on him, that he'd have been better off now if he was now living under the tender mercies of the Kims, I'd say you'd be lucky not to get a clatter (verbal...or otherwise) for your arrogance and presumption.
Nobody stopped the Chinese Communists taking over that country, did they? What did the Chinese get? A million "landlords" (yeah, right) dead;a million dead in the Cultural Revolution;30 000 000 dead in the Great Leap Forward.