US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

nacho libre

SeanW wrote: »

. I suspect the "Commies are wonderful, it's the democracies are evil" stuff comes from the extreme left.

To be matched by those on the extreme right, who believe commies are evil, while western democracies are unblemished

the truth, if you are not one- eyed about it all, is somewhere in between. There are countless examples of America undermining democratic governments when it suited their geo political aims. That's why I sometimes wonder do though expressing outrage about events Ukraine have amnesia. Is it a case of faux outrage depending upon who is responsible?

ilkhanid

nacho libre wrote: »

To be matched by those on the extreme right, who believe commies are evil, while western democracies are unblemished

I don't think that you need to go to the extreme right to find that view...although centrists or social democrats usually find more nuance in those questions. Anyway this is old news. The countries of "actually existing socialism" were failures in most cases and either collapsed or re-invented themselves as states of "directed Capitalism"...or whatever one cares to call it. There is really only one hold-out left, and that one is still stuck in deep-frozen Stalinism (with a few other obnoxious things, racism, monarchism-in all but name-included). Never mind 1989, North Korea has yet to make it to 1953!

nacho libre wrote: »

the truth, if you are not one- eyed about it all, is somewhere in between. There are countless examples of America undermining democratic governments when it suited their geo political aims.

Countless? Hyperbole. Let's say several cases. Otherwise, no argument.

nacho libre wrote: »

That's why I sometimes wonder do though expressing outrage about events Ukraine have amnesia. Is it a case of faux outrage depending upon who is responsible?

What causes outrage is that reminds us so much of another country, another time, another place. A country that...
1. had a minority that found itself cut off from the Motherland when the old Empire fell and new states were carved out of it.
2. A minority some of whom entertained dreams of closer ties to the the Mother country....and perhaps of joining it.
3. Where the Mother country hoped to carve off the lands inhabited by that minority and annex them to itself.
4. Where a campaign of slander and hysteria was mounted accusing the newly independant country of atrocities and genocidal intentions towards the minority.
5. Finally, intervention with a rag-tag bunch of malcontents, gangsters and local ambitious thugs used as a catspaw.

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/20603
http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/File:Adolf_Hitler_speech_on_Invasion_of_Czechoslovakia.PNG

Gatling

More north Korean weapons tests to continue as little Kim vows to bolster his nuclear arsenal to the maximum to fend off Trump ,

Get the feeling despite calls for extended diplomatic discussions sooner or later military options will come to the fore

cnocbui

Gatling wrote: »

More north Korean weapons tests to continue as little Kim vows to bolster his nuclear arsenal to the maximum to fend off Trump ,

Get the feeling despite calls for extended diplomatic discussions sooner or later military options will come to the fore

There are only two likely scenarios:

1) The US start bombing them back into the stone age.

2) China pretty much literally holds a gun to little Kim's head by sending a lot of troops across the border, or has an agent snuff him.

They have very seriously miscalculated in their little NK game. It was a great goad for them against the west while sanity ruled and stayed the US' hand, but Trump is a different kettle of fish. If they aren't seriously panicking in Beijing they are even stupider than I think. They effectively armed NK, let's see them put that genie back in the bottle.

A talk-fest is out of the question - once bitten, twice shy.

Cheerful Spring

If Kim orders a nuclear test. We will see military action. I just hope North Korea missiles are crappy, if the decide to fire them. They have missiles that can travel go 8,000 to 9,000 miles, but nobody knows if they work.

For me biggest fear is they can launch a missile from a submarine? They got 70+ submarines (yes most of them are old and worn down) still they could modify them to launch missile's?

cnocbui

The only way NK could deliver a nuclear weapon at the present time, is to carry it to the enemy in a truck.

It's the only reason why this hasn't escalated to military action previously.

Beyondgone

If you have a look at the geography, it's hard to see how a US strike on NK wouldn't severly p*** off the Chinese..the land border is so long and extensive between China and NK that "overspill" would be very hard to avoid. Then there's the small matter of the land border with Russia..

If you consider that NK is almost like a "nutty buffer" between China and the more Western-focussed SK and Japan, I wouldn't be surprised if Kim was left to carry on playing with his chemistry set indefinitely. If he goes, then either the "West" takes a big step closer to China and Russia, or China and Russia take a big step closer to "The West".. So perhaps that's why "The Kims" have been left to fester. A "nutty buffer" is preferable to no buffer.

It's a bit like a row of terraced houses, where the agressive people two doors down play loud music all night, and you (who are also a bit of a nutter)like blasting classical music till the wee hours, but there's a mad, deaf old lady in the middle house, who smells of wee, keeps loads of cats and is slightly scary. But both music lovers are happy for her to be there, because otherwise there'd be war.

Everyone else in the terrace gets to suck it up, watch and tutt..wondering what will happen if the mad old lady dies.

SeanW

Beyondgone wrote: »

Everyone else in the terrace gets to suck it up, watch and tutt..wondering what will happen if the mad old lady dies.

Until the mad old lay gets a load of hand grenades and starts threatening the house with the classical music, and the owner of said house wakes up and wonders "hey, maybe she actually means it" ...

nacho libre

ilkhanid wrote: »

What causes outrage is that reminds us so much of another country, another time, another place.

I can see the parallels, but these are different times.
I think it's a case of hysterics if people are suggesting Russia would try to march westwards and invade other Baltic states eventually leading to world war three.

The main reason Russia is flexing its muscles is obviously because they feel they are losing on the geo-political chessboard- losing its sphere of influence, as Nato enroaches....

America and Russia will not go to war directly over Ukraine, nor Syria or anywhere else for that matter. What they might do is increase their support for proxies on either side. As the Iranians and Saudis are doing in Syria and Yemen. If they see a military defeat can't be inflicted on the other side, they will come to a political agreement. This is eventually going to happen in Syria and Yemen.






As for events in North Korea. I think China is being made to look ineffectual by Kim. It won't be a surprise to me if the Chinese lose patience and decide to get rid of him for his effrontery to them. They will deem it the best way to ensure a leader compliant to them takes over, while avoiding a war.

Beyondgone

SeanW wrote: »

Until the mad old lay gets a load of hand grenades and starts threatening the house with the classical music, and the owner of said house wakes up and wonders "hey, maybe she actually means it" ...

That's a ridiculous analogy.

nacho libre

SeanW wrote: »

Until the mad old lay gets a load of hand grenades and starts threatening the house with the classical music, and the owner of said house wakes up and wonders "hey, maybe she actually means it" ...

The lady is deaf. Maybe you are assuming she regains her hearing:D

refusetolose

nacho libre wrote: »

The lady is deaf. Maybe you are assuming she regains her hearing:D

she's not threatening him over the music ,it's something else that's annoying her

Gatling

Are people still going on about Ukraine despite several other threads on the subject .

Beyondgone

Gatling wrote: »

Are people still going on about Ukraine despite several other threads on the subject .

No, we were going on about the deaf auld wan. No one mentioned Ukraine, honest.

RobbingBandit

Trump saying he'd meet Kim Jong-un if appropriate sounds like the bones of a script to Team America 2

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

Are people still going on about Ukraine despite several other threads on the subject .

You're a gas man Gatling!
From this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103374413

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You're a gas man Gatling

Oh quoting the far right wackball link you posted

I wouldn't want to be reposting that embarrassing link

Gatling

Speaking of rockets Kim and co need to watch todays American satallite launch which they successfully launched a new surveillance satallite and then landed the reusable rocket perfectly

Beyondgone

Gatling wrote: »

Speaking of rockets Kim and co need to watch todays American satallite launch which they successfully launched a new surveillance satallite and then landed the reusable rocket perfectly

Good stuff. If they could get the old Space shuttle running as well, they'd be elected.

Alpha_zero

Gatling wrote: »

Speaking of rockets Kim and co need to watch todays American satallite launch which they successfully launched a new surveillance satallite and then landed the reusable rocket perfectly

America are the most powerful nation on earth, what's your point.

Beyondgone

Alpha_zero wrote: »

America are the most powerful nation on earth, what's your point.

That's his point.

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

Oh quoting the far right wackball link you posted

I wouldn't want to be reposting that embarrassing link

Find me the link I posted about Ukraine in this thread

Gatling

Beyondgone wrote: »

That's his point.

Actually that's not the point.



The point is.
when your 70 years behind the country you are threatening.with nukes ,
maybe it's better you don't try join the nuclear party at all

CoolHandBandit

Gatling wrote: »

Actually that's not the point.



The point is.
when your 70 years behind the country you are threatening.with nukes ,
maybe it's better you don't try join the nuclear party at all

It doesnt matter if they are 70 years behind or not. One nuclear device could finish a city like Tokyo or Seoul and kill millions of people. This would also collapse the world economy and possibly even lead to WW3 and the destruction of mankind.

And some people think Trump is mad for saying he'd meet Kim and talk. Talk is the answer. Trump has actually brought the North Korean situation to the forefront because he knows the importance after 8 years of pathetic weak governance from Obama.

valoren

Dear Hollywood script writers,
John Goodman is the head of a secret surveillance unit. They receive intelligence that NK are planning a new test in contravention of an agreement not to.

A team of seals infiltrate North Korea carrying a mobile tactical nuclear weapon.
They make their way to the launch facility and plant the bomb.

*as it's Hollywood, Bruce Willis, has to stay behind to detonate it, cue tears etc*

He detonates the bomb. Washington exploits the last launch failure. Their bomb exploded during a planned strike. They planned to attack but were 'hoist by their own petard'.

China and North Korean relations deteriorate, negotiations ease tensions rapidly China assumes control of NK.
*Montage of north korean citizens rejoicing at FREEDOM (trademark pending)*

'Murica.

ScumLord

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

It doesnt matter if they are 70 years behind or not. One nuclear device could finish a city like Tokyo or Seoul and kill millions of people. This would also collapse the world economy and possibly even lead to WW3 and the destruction of mankind.

That's a possibility but it seems likely that if North Korea attempted to fire a nuke towards S.Korea or Japan that the nuke would get shot down before it reached it's target. All those decades of experience the Americans have means a lot, it's a huge advantage over N.Korea.

If N.Korea made any kind of missile attack no matter how small or big it would be the end of them and I don't think China or russia would defend the country after an attempted attack. China might even join our side so it could annex the northern parts of the country, it could turn into a massive land grab and maybe I'm wrong but I thought many of the useful resources N.K has are in the north.

SeanW

Beyondgone wrote: »

No, we were going on about the deaf auld wan. No one mentioned Ukraine, honest.

Elmer did.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Find me the link I posted about Ukraine in this thread

Ok. Since you need a reminder. To be clear, I am repeating your post, including as it did, your link.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Heres the link again that I posted earlier. The headline is "10 countries that threaten world peace MORE than North Korea"
After all the bloodshed, carnage and destruction throughout the world over the last 50/60 years I would have to agree. The evidence is right in front of you.
http://theduran.com/10-countries-that-threaten-world-peace-more-than-north-korea/

Guess which country was number 2? On your list? In your link? The link you posted?

...

That's right, Ukraine.

Beyondgone

SeanW wrote: »

Elmer did.

Ok. Since you need a reminder. To be clear, I am repeating your post, including as it did, your link.


Guess which country was number 2? On your list? In your link? The link you posted?

...

That's right, Ukraine.

I'm not examining Elmers No 2s. Not for you and not for anyone.

SeanW

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Find me the link I posted about Ukraine in this thread

You did.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Heres the link again that I posted earlier. The headline is "10 countries that threaten world peace MORE than North Korea"
After all the bloodshed, carnage and destruction throughout the world over the last 50/60 years I would have to agree. The evidence is right in front of you.
http://theduran.com/10-countries-that-threaten-world-peace-more-than-north-korea/

Here.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

There are two sides to every story, there are military maneuvers and there is deliberate provocation. Of course this is to get a reaction from the North.
http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/22/12354912-provocation-north-korean-flag-used-in-us-south-korea-war-games?lite

Wow. They used a flag. In war games. Obviously South Korea wants to start World War 3.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Daily? I'm not here to defend N.Korea but the country hasn't fired a shot in anger in 64 years which is more than can be said about many other countries. http://theduran.com/10-countries-that-threaten-world-peace-more-than-north-korea/

Umm ... you are here to defend North Korea, it's been doing nothing but attacking South Korea and Japan in every way, shootings, artillery fire, tunnels under the DMZ, bombing civilian airliners, kidnappings, extraterritorial murders with chemical weapons, among other atrocities more or less as a matter of routine throughout its entire existence. In addition to being the worlds largest prison and (possibly bar ISIS) the worst abuser of human rights by a hundred miles.
And yes, your link included what can only be described as delusional nonsense about Ukraine.

Elmer Blooker

SeanW wrote: »

Ok. Since you need a reminder. To be clear, I am repeating your post, including as it did, your link.


Guess which country was number 2? On your list? In your link? The link you posted?

...

That's right, Ukraine.

My link is about what has gone on in the world since 1953, any mention of Ukraine is incidental. There are 9 other countries on the list so my link is not about Ukraine.
But your nit-picking post is a good attempt at deflection I'll admit.

They used a flag. In war games. Obviously South Korea wants to start World War 3.

"games" is the right word, its like something a bunch of schoolboys would do!
I'll repeat it again- there are war games and there is deliberate provocation.
I couldn't see NATO bombarding a Russian flag on the Latvian border!

you are here to defend North Korea,

If you think criticism of the US and the utter hypocrisy of the so called western democracies is "defending" N.Korea that's your business, skip number 2 a read about the other 9!