US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

Captain Chaos

Gatling wrote: »

Still haven't a nuclear armed missle or bomb several previous tests proved inconclusive for nuclear weapon

Exactly, it's still unknown if they have managed to get a warhead or MIRVs active on a ballistic missile yet. That's the hard part of developing an ICBM.

Sure, they have the missiles and they have the warheads, have they managed to meld them together yet is another thing.

A Little Pony

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Gatling wrote: »

A country that is willing to test nuclear bombs not necessarily have the ability to actually launch one .

Bit of a difference

Pukguksong-2, missile has passed the test already. Its medium strike missile.  They have the capability to strike South Korea or Japan already, What North Korea is testing right now is newer missiles that can go further and hit Washington. If North Korea can fire one of the missiles from a submarine they could hit the Western half of the United States.

America wouldn't let them.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

Still haven't a nuclear armed missle or bomb several previous tests proved inconclusive for nuclear weapon

Pukguksong-2, is a nuclear capable missile it just got a lower range trajectory compared to an intercontinental missile. If North Korea is carrying out nuclear fission they are not idiots.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Pukguksong-2, is a nuclear capable missile

Still doesn't mean they have the capability to put a nuclear warhead on one it's not so simple

Captain Chaos

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Pukguksong-2, is a nuclear capable missile it just got a lower range trajectory compared to an intercontinental missile. If North Korea is carrying out nuclear fission they are not idiots.

Yeah, capable. Have they managed to scale a warhead to a missile yet is the big question, and estimates are that they are not too far off but don't yet have to ability to fire a viable nuke at anyone yet.

Cheerful Spring

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Yeah, capable. Have they managed to scale a warhead to a missile yet is the big question, and estimates are that they are not too far off but don't yet have to ability to fire a viable nuke at anyone yet.

North Korea launched satellites to space and have successfully carried out nuclear tests for years now. They have demonstrated harder science already. I think they can launch nuclear weapons, let hope they don't.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

North Korea launched satellites to space

Satellite's​ launched into space is relatively easy compared to launching​ a nuclear warhead armed missle any great distance and accuracy

A Little Pony

I hope the US has invasion plans in place like Normandy. Its a matter of time.

Laois_Man

Look, the US says Assad used chemical weapons, Assad and the Russians says its a pack of lies

Nobody here knows who's telling the truth

A bomb that cost $314 Million to develop, and costs $16 Million per unit was used to kill 36 people in Afghanistan - rather than used in Syria where there'd likely be significantly more bang for the buck. Clearly shows both sides are full of ****. You can't believe what's said about North Korea's nuclear capabilities any more than you can believe what's said about the gas attack.

cnocbui

Noddyholder wrote: »

But according to folks here a month ago putin was his friend & ally who helped get him elected

He lied to Putin too. What's another dissappointed soul when the tally is already so high?

Gatling

A Little Pony wrote: »

I hope the US has invasion plans in place like Normandy. Its a matter of time.

What ever happens​ they would need to bypass the border and military zones and try beat China to taking a large part of the north as a buffer zone from South Korea and the US

cnocbui

Laois_Man wrote: »

Look, the US says Assad used chemical weapons, Assad and the Russians says its a pack of lies

Nobody here knows who's telling the truth

A bomb that cost $314 Million to develop, and costs $16 Million per unit was used to kill 36 people in Afghanistan - rather than used in Syria where there'd likely be significantly more bang for the buck. Clearly shows both sides are full of ****. You can't believe what's said about North Korea's nuclear capabilities any more than you can believe what's said about the gas attack.

We can make an assessment of the likelihood that every major country and institution that has tested the samples have confirmed a Sarin like agent is lying. We already know that Putin lies endlessly whenever it suits him so that leaves a reasonable path to conclude Assad and Putin are lying.

cnocbui

Gatling wrote: »

Still doesn't mean they have the capability to put a nuclear warhead on one it's not so simple

Unfortunately it is all quite simple if someone who already knows how to do it is helping you.

Gatling

cnocbui wrote: »

Unfortunately it is all quite simple if someone who already knows how to do it is helping you.

Also true

A Little Pony

Gatling wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I hope the US has invasion plans in place like Normandy. Its a matter of time.

What ever happens they would need to bypass the border and military zones and try beat China to taking a large part of the north as a buffer zone from South Korea and the US

China will join the US in destroying the regime. Unless North Korea is willing to halt its nuclear 'games', then it is going to happen. China will not take the side of North Korea, they have far more to lose to do so.

Laois_Man

cnocbui wrote: »

We can make an assessment of the likelihood that every major country and institution that has tested the samples have confirmed a Sarin like agent is lying. We already know that Putin lies endlessly whenever it suits him so that leaves a reasonable path to conclude Assad and Putin are lying.

Tested what samples?

Dohnjoe

Havent had time to go through the whole thread but it's worth mentioning - The N Korea leadership is not interested in any sort of situation or war that would actually realistically threaten their comfortable lives

They use these threats and escalations to extract concessions from the rest of the world - also to quell any power struggles at home

Even if the Trump admin did launch strikes (which would be bizarre) - I wouldn't worry about anything significant from NK, likely crossborder artillery fire and lots of chest thumping, but nothing serious

Dohnjoe

A Little Pony wrote: »

China will join the US in destroying the regime. Unless North Korea is willing to halt its nuclear 'games', then it is going to happen. China will not take the side of North Korea, they have far more to lose to do so.

China would have to absorb millions of refugees. In comparison Syria is the most significant humanitarian disaster today and that is "only" 5mm refugees spread across many countries. It's unlikely China could come even close to coping with the higher volumes that would potentially come from NK

China loses nothing from the status quo as they know their is little or no realistic threat from Pyongyang

CoolHandBandit

The day NK has a missile capable of reaching US air bases in the region all bets are off. Imo i'd say we are reaching that point faster than anyone presumes. Sooner or later the world will have to deal with the problem anyway.

cnocbui

Laois_Man wrote: »

Tested what samples?

The British delegation to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) said UK scientists have tested samples from Khan Sheikhun and the samples “tested positive for the nerve agent sarin, or a sarin-like substance”.

Turkish officials said they conducted post-mortems on victims and also found evidence of sarin.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-assads-implausible-claims-about-chemical-weapons

Turkish Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag said Thursday that autopsy results on victims of the attack in Khan Sheikhoun, Idlib province, confirmed that a “chemical weapon was used.” A statement later Thursday by Turkey’s health ministry said the autopsy results pointed to an attack with the deadly nerve agent Sarin. Chemical weapons experts who spoke to CBS News after seeing video of the victims also said it appeared to be a likely Sarin gas attack.

Autopsies on three of those who lost their lives were carried out at a Turkish forensics institute in Adana, according to local media. The victims died after being ferried across the border for treatment with around thirty others.

http://www.thenational.ae/world/middle-east/syria-chemical-attack-samples-from-site-test-positive-for-sarin

Those ones.

Laois_Man

cnocbui wrote: »

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-assads-implausible-claims-about-chemical-weapons

http://www.thenational.ae/world/middle-east/syria-chemical-attack-samples-from-site-test-positive-for-sarin

Those ones.

I don't think the debate is centered around the fact that chemical weapons were used in Syria

The debate is centered around who used them!

Showing that there Sarin used presents no reasonable path to conclude anything!

Allah snackbar

I'm sure I'm being naive here , but from satellite images North Korea compared to South Korea looks like it has very little in the way of power stations and generating it's own grid , if anything was to happen I'd have thought the obvious thing to do would be to target them and wipe out it's power grid cutting off supply to the capital and all military areas , or am I totally underestimating North Korea , what are it's military capabilities compared to Russia or America ?, if one was to believe documentaries or the news it seems to be a very backward nation

cnocbui

Laois_Man wrote: »

I don't think the debate is centered around the fact that chemical weapons were used in Syria

The debate is centered around who used them!

Showing that there Sarin used presents no reasonable path to conclude anything!

I already addressed the debate part in referencing Putin's proven track record of lying at will. It never occurred to me to consider that someone might actually pay any attention to anything Assad might say or give it credence, I have to admit.

The two of them are busy contradicting each other quite nicely in their stories, so those two cancelling each other out leaves the truth as the remainder.

WinnyThePoo

I'd be worried for the civilians if there was ever a move on north Korea. I could see Kim slaughtering his own people. 'if I can't have it, you can't' attitude.

The Chinese would not want north Koreans streaming over either.

Gatling

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I'd be worried for the civilians if there was ever a move on north Korea. I could see Kim slaughtering his own people. 'if I can't have it, you can't' attitude.

The Chinese would not want north Koreans streaming over either.

I can imagine a Johnstown massacre on a Biblical scale

TeaBagMania

No one likes a dictator
Look back at the Iraqi invasion, lob a few mortars, destroy a couple tanks and half the army surrender's
IMHO the NK peoples true dedication to kim is few and far between

A Little Pony

Liberty must take the day. Time to free them.

TeaBagMania

On another note, its time to bring home the USS Pueblo

Capt'n Midnight

Dubh Linn wrote: »

Would a ground invasion by the US be an option? With the help of China and S Korea of course? What about an aerial bombardment? Or is N Korea effectively untouchable?

Why would China support the US ?

Why would China need to invade ?
Back in February they stopped importing coal which cut off a huge chunk of North Korea's source of hard currency.

Why would China invade They play the long game, there's no Mid Term elections. Since they still have the option of cutting off food exports they don't even need to lift a finger.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/world/asia/china-north-korea-trade-coal-nuclear.html

cnocbui

I wonder if it might not be an idea for The US to propose to China that they jointly dismantle North Korea, allow South Korea to unify with it as Germany did with East Germany after the fall, and in return, the US makes a binding commitment to pull all troops out of South Korea and to reduce the strength of it's alliance with them and to also timetable a withdrawal of it's troops from Japan in the near future if China sticks to the bargain of not messing. Perhaps a slight reduction of China's ridiculous maritime claims could see an agreement there as a sweetener.

China gets to be good guy, and gets' the US out of it's neck of the woods, Korea is unified and the potential refugee problem evaporates, Trump gets his US pull-back from being the world's big stick and a serious threat to stability in the region is eliminated for good. The only loser would be one spoiled, fat petulant child.

Elmer Blooker

I have a feeling that if the US attacks N.Korea the films of adoring crowds cheering Kim Jong-un may not have to be faked anymore.

cnocbui

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I'd be worried for the civilians if there was ever a move on north Korea. I could see Kim slaughtering his own people. 'if I can't have it, you can't' attitude.

The Chinese would not want north Koreans streaming over either.

It's not always quite that easy or straight forward when you order your troops to shoot their own mothers, fathers, siblings, girlfriends and acquaintances.

Capt'n Midnight

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

If North Korea is carrying out nuclear fission they are not idiots.

Fission is easy, just get a big enough heap of uranium and away you go.

The first nuclear reactor was just naturally occurring uranium surrounded by graphite blocks.


To make atomic bombs there's two routes. Uranium bombs which are very easy to make but take a lot of energy to do isotope separation (South Africa did this) OR plutonium bombs which require lots of fuel reprocessing and are very tricky to detonate. Of course plutonium bombs are easy if you can get the plans and can import specialist trigger components (Israel did this)



India and Pakistan have gone to war and didn't use their nukes. North Korea knows that they can't attack anyone with nukes and hope to survive the backlash.

Capt'n Midnight

A Little Pony wrote: »

I hope the US has invasion plans in place like Normandy. Its a matter of time.

Wait until the 90% of the army is fighting the Russians and then try to sneak in , but get caught on the beach because of bad planning compared to your allies who have it much easier ?

The_Valeyard

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I have a feeling that if the US attacks N.Korea the films of adoring crowds cheering Kim Jong-un may not have to be faked anymore.

And the exact opposite could happen, once the veil comes down, the country may not be as United behind dear leader as we are lead to believe.

rossie1977

A preemptive strike or invasion of north Korea would result in a situation a million times worse than what happened in waco Texas.

Laois_Man

cnocbui wrote: »

I already addressed the debate part in referencing Putin's proven track record of lying at will. It never occurred to me to consider that someone might actually pay any attention to anything Assad might say or give it credence, I have to admit.

The two of them are busy contradicting each other quite nicely in their stories, so those two cancelling each other out leaves the truth as the remainder.

Did you also go to any effort to reference the proven track record of Donald Trump's lying at will?

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I have a feeling that if the US attacks N.Korea the films of adoring crowds cheering Kim Jong-un may not have to be faked anymore.

Imagine that would leave only Mugabe ,Assad and putin to dealt with

FionnK86

Best hope for a peaceful resolution is for;

1. US to bribe top ranking officials who are already in danger within the regime.
2. Stage a small mutiny, and when situation escalates...
3. Force a UN invasion, with support of China and Russia to secure nuclear arsenal and stabilize regime

Russia/China see Kim Jong-Un as stable despite the media reporting, however they would not be happy with a bunch of new faces running the show, and would quickly intervene to stop the US getting too much power over a new regime.

A moderate communist regime supported by China is the only way forward for North Korean people. Too much democracy too soon would not be any good, just look at Iraq.

cnocbui

Laois_Man wrote: »

Did you also go to any effort to reference the proven track record of Donald Trump's lying at will?

No, he makes Putin look like an amateur.

skankkuvhima

I think some people on this thread need to grow up a bit and realize we are talking about serious issues. Just because Donald Trump said something that hurt your feelings doesn't mean it's ok for Kim-Jong Un to have weapons of mass destruction

It's a bit tiresome tbh

cnocbui

rossie1977 wrote: »

A preemptive strike or invasion of north Korea would result in a situation a million times worse than what happened in waco Texas.

And yet also infinitely preferable to having NK nuke Seoul or Tokyo. Wouldn't it be lovely if the present circumstances were not as dire and as serious as they are?

cnocbui

Gatling wrote: »

Imagine that would leave only Mugabe ,Assad and putin to dealt with

House of Saud?

bear1

archer22 wrote: »

China does not give a fock about America and will not be dictated to by them..if it comes to war they will support North Korea.

And China has the technology to sink that piddly little carrier group in a few hours

I'll nominate this the most delusional post on this thread.
Worlds biggest and most advanced navy.. piddly.

Gatling

cnocbui wrote: »

House of Saud?

Definitely add to the list , should be top of the list actually

The_Valeyard

Gatling wrote: »

Definitely add to the list , should be top of the list actually

Id put them around 3rd.


Plenty of African warlords remain and one European despot left to deal with in Belarus. But yeah, the list is slowly going down. All the old boys club is gone, Saddam, Gadaffi, Castro, Idi Aman, Marcos, to name a few.

But there is a point to be made that people need to out personal opinions about Trump aside when dealing with an issue like North Korea.

SeanW

The_Valeyard wrote: »

But there is a point to be made that people need to out personal opinions about Trump aside when dealing with an issue like North Korea.

The Left is not capable of this.

KenjiOdo

Dubh Linn wrote: »

They say the Korean war ended in the 50's. In my opinion, it is still ongoing.

No a ceasefire exists at most, north and south are still at war. Hence the DMZ, acts as a buffer zone between the two nations any military personnel entering the DMZ is to be shot on site...

Luggnuts

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Explain how someone who keeps millions of people in labour camps and does nothing to better the situation of their own populace is the better of two evils?

Millions of people in labour camps? So how many million out of curiosity?

archer22

archer22 wrote: »

China does not give a fock about America and will not be dictated to by them..if it comes to war they will support North Korea.

And China has the technology to sink that piddly little carrier group in a few hours

Yeah, now China has had a taste of democracy and progress and western values, sure OBVIOUSLY they'll hitch their fortunes to a totalitarian despot in North Korea and a regime where millions ate grass to avoid starvation. And to seal this Great Leap Backwards into isolation, they'll take on the US militarily.