US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

North Korea and Fox are the ones claiming ICBM which says it all really ,

You said controlled flight based off what exactly ,it was fired in an arc which certainly doesn't mean controlled

If it flew the correct path and trajectory they wanted, its controlled. An ICBM can travel lot further than 500 miles

Fox News did say US officials not Fox Sources.

AnGaelach

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

US officials are saying it's an ICBM is probably true. I don't think a war against NK is good for anyone, this not like bombing Iraq or a base in Syria.

Japan and South Korea have confirmed the missile when fired reached a height of 1500+ miles and traveled another 500+ after leveling off i suppose and landed near its target. The missile flew for 37 minutes, controlled.. This first time any NK missile reached that height.

The question isn't whether a war with them is good. It's about what is least bad.

Would you rather the US/Japan/South Korea fighting North Korea before or after they miniaturise a nuclear warhead and put it on an ICBM?

Action now might save hundreds of thousands or millions of lives later.

Cheerful Spring

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Only a few months ago, the Americans and the South Koreans sent 300,000 (yes, that many) troops to the North Korean border to engage in military drills.

This kind of provocation is almost never mentioned, let alone condemned.

Most people prefer a simplistic narrative of foreign policy as a cartoon involving goodies vs baddies.

True. NK is not a good guy, but i can't remember missile after missile test during Obama 8 years of presidency.

Cheerful Spring

AnGaelach wrote: »

The question isn't whether a war with them is good. It's about what is least bad.

Would you rather the US/Japan/South Korea fighting North Korea before or after they miniaturise a nuclear warhead and put it on an ICBM?

Action now might save hundreds of thousands or millions of lives later.

NK was insane they could have nuked South Korea years ago maybe even Japan. They building nuclear missiles for protection because see how easy it is for United States to attack other countries, when it's defenses are lacking.

AnGaelach

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

NK was insane they could have nuked South Korea years ago maybe even Japan. They building nuclear missiles for protection because see how easy it is for United States to attack other countries, when it's defenses are lacking.

Yeah, the big bad US under fascist Drumpf is totally why North Korea is constantly making remarks about delivering nuclear strikes on American cities and why they starve their own citizens to death in pursuit of nuclear weapons.

It's the god damn neocon/neolib capitalists at it again!

Gatling

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Only a few months ago, the Americans and the South Koreans sent 300,000 (yes, that many) troops to the North Korean border to engage in military drills.

This kind of provocation is almost never mentioned, let alone condemned.

It has happened for the last 4+ decades remind us all what country is still at a state of war yet south Korea has got on with life and flourished since the end of the Korean war ,

Cheerful Spring

AnGaelach wrote: »

Yeah, the big bad US under fascist Drumpf is totally why North Korea is constantly making remarks about delivering nuclear strikes on American cities and why they starve their own citizens to death in pursuit of nuclear weapons.

It's the god damn neocon/neolib capitalists at it again!

United States involved itself in a Civil war. NK sees them as the enemy. It same thing when the Catholic population viewed the British security services as a threat. Instead of carrying out military drills every year near North Korea they should have talked. Starving their citizens has been debunked widely by independent researchers. They had a famine that caused hardship and the US economic blockade hurt the poor.

The_Valeyard

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

United States involved itself in a Civil war. NK sees them as the enemy. It same thing when the Catholic population viewed the British security services as a threat. Instead of carrying out military drills every year near North Korea they should have talked. Starving their citizens has been debunked widely by independent researchers. They had a famine that caused hardship and the US economic blockade hurt the poor.

Tbf, the whole UN got involved with stopping the NK advance.

And if some mad bast*rd leader was making vids of Ireland in nuclear fire, buildings wiped out and population centres wiped out, we'd be either pissed off it worried.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

United States involved itself in a Civil war. NK sees them as the enemy. It same thing when the Catholic population viewed the British security services as a threat.

No russia and China decided to go to war to install a puppet in the hope of taking more parts of Asia ,
The UN got involved and had the looney north finished off till massive re enforcement from china and russia ,and a stupid mistake by McArthur

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

No russia and China decided to go to war to install a puppet in the hope of taking more parts of Asia ,
The UN got involved and had the looney north finished off till massive re enforcement from china and russia ,and a stupid mistake by McArthur

Soviet Union never entered the war and China did not mobilize to defend North Korea till the very end of the war and only did so because they feared the Americans would have a puppet state near their border. America attacked NK with UK help, using troops, tanks planes.

Cheerful Spring

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Tbf, the whole UN got involved with stopping the NK advance.

And if some mad bast*rd leader was making vids of Ireland in nuclear fire, buildings wiped out and population centres wiped out, we'd be either pissed off it worried.

We make stupid decisions we should expect horrible results. We just got lucky a few times we had bright leaders like Kennedy to manage a crisis. People forget the Cuban missile was actually caused by the Americans installing nukes in Turkey. The Cuban missile crisis was the Soviet response to that.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Soviet Union never entered the war and China did not mobilize to defend North Korea till the very end of the war and only did so because they feared the Americans would have a puppet state near their border..

It was their idea to start the whole thing off , history is a great thing,

Worse is russia drew up plans to nuke china after several fallings out afterwards

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

It was their idea to start the whole thing off , history is a great thing,

Worse is russia drew up plans to nuke china after several fallings out afterwards

Koreans should be allowed to determine their own fate in the 50's.

Again Soviets did not join the war to crush South Korea. Either did China.

Cheerful Spring

Reported by CNN

US military analysts believe North Korea's launched a "probable" two-stage intercontinental ballistic missile on Tuesday, according to a US official with knowledge of the ongoing post-launch analysis.

The initial analysis by the US indicates the North Koreans launched an intermediate, a single-stage KN-17 missile. The ongoing assessment suggests a second stage booster did ignite and produced 30 seconds of additional flight.

Zebra3

Gatling wrote: »

It has happened for the last 4+ decades remind us all what country is still at a state of war yet south Korea has got on with life and flourished since the end of the Korean war ,

I have to admit you have some ability to lie and omit facts on here.

NK was actually far better off than the south up until the 70s.

And why don't you mention the SK dictatorship that the US backed for decades? Not suit your endless propaganda shyte?

ilkhanid

archer22 wrote: »

One way or another you got to have some respect for North Korea, a little nation of only 25 million thats been under sanctions for decades but yet everytime its name is mentioned the American 'superpower' and its colonial slave nations poop their collective trousers

You mean a little regime and a huge army standing on the necks of 24 million people. No, I've no respect for them.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you do realise that foreigners have actually been to north korea and seen how painfully thin the people are?

,,,and that North Koreans have been (unwillingly) to China and South Korea.

The_Valeyard

The_Valeyard wrote: »

And if some mad bast*rd leader was making vids of Ireland in nuclear fire, buildings wiped out and population centres wiped out, we'd be either pissed off it worried.

Except, within living memory, the United States *actually* killed 25% of the population of North Korea, and *did* level the country’s towns and cities, including Pyongyang, where the city was literally flattened.

So when the likes of Obama says that he could destroy North Korea if he wanted, and the Americans are launching ICBMs into the Pacific Ocean (12 times more powerful than anything fired by DPRK), and the Americans have thousands of their own soldiers doing military exercises on the DPRK border... is it any surprise that the DPRK wants to defend itself?

Seriously? Is this not understandable to you?

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Koreans should be allowed to determine their own fate in the 50's.

Again Soviets did not join the war to crush South Korea. Either did China.

They were involved from the very beginning

Skylinehead

Gatling wrote: »

Most of which is only "Claimed" by Nk I still doubt it was anything other than a medium range missle that carried enough fuel to get to a certain trajectory before falling back to earth ,

Think I'll listen to the experts on this one

A 40 minute flight time means its an ICBM. I assume they kept it at a high trajectory to stop it flying thousands of miles away from where they could observe it.

Probably not very accurate, but it is a development.

Korat

Zebra3 wrote: »

NK was actually far better off than the south up until the 70s.

South of Ireland?

I'd believe that alright, there are people who miss being that poor. The 'good old days' they call it.

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Soviet Union never entered the war and China did not mobilize to defend North Korea till the very end of the war and only did so because they feared the Americans would have a puppet state near their border. America attacked NK with UK help, using troops, tanks planes.

The USSR encouraged the North to attack the South and sent fighter pilots and planes to assist them.

The USA counterattacked the North after they had evicted their armies out of the South..as they were perfectly entitled to do.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Koreans should be allowed to determine their own fate in the 50's..

Is that you'd call the first Kim lunatic conquering the South....."Koreans... determining their own fate". That'll have 'em in stitches in Seoul. Does the population of North Korea determine it's own fate?

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Again Soviets did not join the war to crush South Korea. Either did China.

No,they just cheered on Kim Il Sung in his attack on the South...and got a nasty surprise when the US turned the tables on him and threatened to do to him what he thought he'd do to the South.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Instead of carrying out military drills every year near North Korea they should have talked.

Instead of threatening South Korea (and Japan) and carrying out terrorist attacks on their soil, North Korea should have talked.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Except, within living memory, the United States *actually* killed 25% of the population of North Korea, and *did* level the country’s towns and cities, including Pyongyang, where the city was literally flattened.

1. 25%-wild hyperbole. 2. A rational leadership would have said "F*** this for a game of soldiers" long before their capital was flattened and sued for peace, but,no, the Kim madman kept feeding his own (and the endless supply of Chinese) men into the meat grinder right to the end. It was the Chinese that finally called "Enough". Even Mao had enough of using Chinese soldiers as cannon-fodder to fulfill Kim's dreams.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So when the likes of Obama says that he could destroy North Korea if he wanted, and the Americans are launching ICBMs into the Pacific Ocean (12 times more powerful than anything fired by DPRK), and the Americans have thousands of their own soldiers doing military exercises on the DPRK border... is it any surprise that the DPRK wants to defend itself?

Seriously? Is this not understandable to you?

If you have an enemy that's immeasurably more powerful than you, that could obliterate you in a hearbeat, do you keep provoking him, threatening him and threatening his allies just over the border and a few hundred miles over the sea.

Seriously? Is this not understandable to you?

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Starving their citizens has been debunked widely by independent researchers. They had a famine that caused hardship and the US economic blockade hurt the poor.

They had a famine because they run a command economy and confiscate the produce of the rural population to feed the bloated army and the Party apparatchiks in Pyonyang. They don't want to starve? Then they should reform their economy. If they run their country like Stalin's USSR in 1933, then it's their fault the people starved, not America's.

Cheerful Spring

ilkhanid wrote: »

The USSR encouraged the North to attack the South and sent fighter pilots and planes to assist them.

The USA counterattacked the North after they had evicted their armies out of the South..as they were perfectly entitled to do.



Is that you'd call the first Kim lunatic conquering the South....."Koreans... determining their own fate". That'll have 'em in stitches in Seoul. Does the population of North Korea determine it's own fate?



No,they just cheered on Kim Il Sung in his attack on the South...and got a nasty surprise when the US turned the tables on him and threatened to do to him what he thought he'd do to the South.



Instead of threatening South Korea (and Japan) and carrying out terrorist attacks on their North Korea should have talked.



1. 25%-wild hyperbole. 2. A rational leadership would have said "F*** this for a game of soldiers" long before their capital was flattened and sued for peace, but,no, the Kim madman kept feeding his own (and the endless supply of Chinese) men into the meat grinder right to the end. It was the Chinese that finally called "Enough". Even Mao had enough of using Chinese soldiers as cannon-fodder to fulfill Kim's dreams.



If you have an enemy that's immeasurably more powerful than you, that could obliterate you in a hearbeat, do you keep provoking him, threatening him and threatening his allies just before the border and a few hundred miles over the sea.

Seriously? Is this not understandable to you?



They had a famine because they run a command economy and confiscate the produce of the rural population to feed the bloated army and the Party apparatchiks in Pyonyang. They don't want to starve? Then they should reform their economy. If they run their country like Stalin's USSR in 1933, then it's their fault the people starved, not America's.

Real history for a change. Again American intervened in an internal matter. North and South, both populations are Korean. There was no mass killing of South Korean forces by Chinese fighters or Soviet fighters. The only side to do this is Western side.

In an interview with United Press, on 7th October 1949,
Syngman Rhee boasted that the South Korean army could take the North
Korean capital of Pyongyang within three days. On the 1st November, the
New York Herald Tribune reported that Syn Sung Mo, the South Korean War
Minister had declared that his army was ready and waiting to push into
North Korea. There had already been a considerable number of border
incidents.

At a conference with his divisional commanders in Seoul during
October 1949 General Roberts, Chief of the American Military Mission in
Korea, said:

"Certainly there have been many attacks on the territory north of
the 38th parallel on my orders, and there will be many others in the
days to come ... From now on, the invasion by the land forces of the
territory north of the 38th parallel is to be carried out only on the
basis of orders of the American military mission."

This is quoted in "Thus Wars Are Made" by Albert Norden, who also
tells us that three months later, in January 1950, General Roberts
announced: "The campaign against the north has been decided upon, and
the date for carrying it through is not very far off." Documents of the
Syngman Rhee government, captured during the subsequent occupation of
Seoul by the Korean Peoples Army and published by the North Korean
government, confirmed the systematic preparation of the invasion of
North Korea from the south.

AnGaelach

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Except, within living memory, the United States *actually* killed 25% of the population of North Korea, and *did* level the country’s towns and cities, including Pyongyang, where the city was literally flattened.

So, presumably, being attacked within "living memory" also justifies Israel's nuclear weapons program, the US bombing the fúck out of Islamist groups, and the IRA shooting or blowing up British security forces?

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Real history for a change. Again American intervened in an internal matter. North and South, both populations are Korean. There was no mass killing of South Korean forces by Chinese fighters or Soviet fighters. The only side to do this is Western side.

In an interview with United Press, on 7th October 1949,
Syngman Rhee boasted that the South Korean army could take the North
Korean capital of Pyongyang within three days. On the 1st November, the
New York Herald Tribune reported that Syn Sung Mo, the South Korean War
Minister had declared that his army was ready and waiting to push into
North Korea. There had already been a considerable number of border
incidents.

At a conference with his divisional commanders in Seoul during
October 1949 General Roberts, Chief of the American Military Mission in
Korea, said:

"Certainly there have been many attacks on the territory north of
the 38th parallel on my orders, and there will be many others in the
days to come ... From now on, the invasion by the land forces of the
territory north of the 38th parallel is to be carried out only on the
basis of orders of the American military mission."

This is quoted in "Thus Wars Are Made" by Albert Norden, who also
tells us that three months later, in January 1950, General Roberts
announced: "The campaign against the north has been decided upon, and
the date for carrying it through is not very far off." Documents of the
Syngman Rhee government, captured during the subsequent occupation of
Seoul by the Korean Peoples Army and published by the North Korean
government, confirmed the systematic preparation of the invasion of
North Korea from the south.

It was the UN that intervened when the north invaded the south.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Real history for a change. Again American intervened in an internal matter. North and South, both populations are Korean. There was no mass killing of South Korean forces by Chinese fighters or Soviet fighters. The only side to do this is Western side. .

bs ,

North Korea invaded the south
There was no mass killings figures say otherwise

South Korea

373,599 killed
229,625 wounded
387,744 abducted/missing

AnGaelach

Gatling wrote: »

bs

When someone claims to possess the "real history", it's a good sign to stop arguing with them. They're generally crackpots.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It was the UN that intervened when the north invaded the south.

The invasion started in the early hours of the 25th June. According
to a captured front-line officer, Lieutenant Han Su-whan, formerly of the
17th Regiment of the South Korean army:

"Though the 24th was a Saturday, officers of the regiment were not
allowed to go out; they were ordered to be on the alert. We all stayed
up that night in tense mood, and by daybreak of the 25th a secret order
reached us from Headquarters to launch an attack on the region north of
the 38th parallel line. All the units which had launched the sudden
attack from the Ongjin area broke through the 38th parallel line, and
their advance covered from on to two kilometres ... Soon after we
launched our attack, we were confronted by a fierce counter-offensive of
the Constabularies of the People's Republic ... We, who had been so
proud of being equipped with American arms of ultra-modern type,
collapsed immediately everywhere before the Constabularies of the
People's Republic; even the 53 rocket guns we had were of no use."

In his book "New Light on Korea" D.N. Pritt wrote: "Within eight
hours of the first news of the hostilities reaching Washington, the
Security Council was summoned ... Its members were called from their
sleep at 3 a.m and twelve hours later, in the absence of the Soviet
representative, and of any representative of China (the nominee of the
defeated bandit Chiang Kaishek still sitting in China's seat), they had
passed what appeared to be a resolution of the Security Council."
According to the Charter of the United Nations, all five permanent
members of the Security Council had to concur before any resolution
could be said to be valid. The representative of the USSR, objecting in
principle to China's being represented by the nominee of a government
that had ceased to exist, did not attend. The resolution was, therefore,
totally void. It nevertheless condemned "the invasion of the Republic of
Korea by armed forces from North Korea" and recommended its members to
give military aid to South Korea.

The UN of course sided with the United States and version of events we got is the North attacked the South first.

BillyBobBS

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Early days, but an ICBM test is very serious. The threat is more serious for America if the North can hit the United States. Personally Trump kind of brought this on himself. The North only started testing missile after missile when Trump got elected and started threatening them.

:pac: Yeah, it's all Trump's fault.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The representative of the USSR, It nevertheless condemned "the invasion of the Republic of
Korea by armed forces from North Korea" and recommended its members to
give military aid to South Korea.

The UN of course sided with the United States and version of events we got is the North attacked the South first.

So the Soviet union aka russia also agreed the North invaded .
Funny how they also sent men and equipment in large numbers to fight against the south which had been invaded

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The invasion started in the early hours of the 25th June. According
to a captured front-line officer, Lieutenant Han Su-whan, formerly of the
17th Regiment of the South Korean army:

"Though the 24th was a Saturday, officers of the regiment were not
allowed to go out; they were ordered to be on the alert. We all stayed
up that night in tense mood, and by daybreak of the 25th a secret order
reached us from Headquarters to launch an attack on the region north of
the 38th parallel line. All the units which had launched the sudden
attack from the Ongjin area broke through the 38th parallel line, and
their advance covered from on to two kilometres ... Soon after we
launched our attack, we were confronted by a fierce counter-offensive of
the Constabularies of the People's Republic ... We, who had been so
proud of being equipped with American arms of ultra-modern type,
collapsed immediately everywhere before the Constabularies of the
People's Republic; even the 53 rocket guns we had were of no use."

In his book "New Light on Korea" D.N. Pritt wrote: "Within eight
hours of the first news of the hostilities reaching Washington, the
Security Council was summoned ... Its members were called from their
sleep at 3 a.m and twelve hours later, in the absence of the Soviet
representative, and of any representative of China (the nominee of the
defeated bandit Chiang Kaishek still sitting in China's seat), they had
passed what appeared to be a resolution of the Security Council."
According to the Charter of the United Nations, all five permanent
members of the Security Council had to concur before any resolution
could be said to be valid. The representative of the USSR, objecting in
principle to China's being represented by the nominee of a government
that had ceased to exist, did not attend. The resolution was, therefore,
totally void. It nevertheless condemned "the invasion of the Republic of
Korea by armed forces from North Korea" and recommended its members to
give military aid to South Korea.

The UN of course sided with the United States and version of events we got is the North attacked the South first.

i've highlighted the important part of your post