US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

Cheerful Spring

AnGaelach wrote: »

You're peddling fake history.

I'm peddling worldwide views of the war. Both sides have a different version of how the war started

ilkhanid

Zebra3 wrote: »

I'm fully aware of the fact.
But the hypocrisy of some on here using it as a stick to beat NK while cheerleading America.

Why not? NK (or rather the Kims) needs a good beating....or a diet.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

North and South Korea both got prepared for hostility. North was prepared, so is it really a surprise they could counterattack effectively?

Look me and you truly has no clue who started the war. What we got though is two sides with different takes on what happened.

Except they didn't "counterattack". They attacked. They rolled over the border in force. Every mewling dictator has pulled the "He started it first" excuse, but unless there is some extraordinary historical revelation, sorry, I'm going with the conventional wisdom on all those cases,. Hitler attacked Poland. Hitler attacked the USSR. Stalin attacked Finland. Kim Il-Sung attacked South Korea with Stalin's blessing.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

And my point is that these happened within living memory. North Koreans have not forgotten the colossal scale of destruction that was visited upon them. It should be totally unsurprising that they are seeking to defend themselves, not just in light of recent history, but in the context of aggressive and provocative acts being carried out to this very day by the USA and the South Koreans. .

Aggressive and provocative acts? Any things that the South Koreans have done pale in comparison to the decades long campaign of infiltration, murder, kidnapping and terrorism that that North has wrecked on the South. If you can find a Southern act that compares to the Northern attempt to murder the entire Southern government, then be my guest, out with it.

North Koreans know nothing except what the regime tells them. They are not seeking to defend themselves, (if they did they'd do to the Kims what the Rumanians did to the Ceaucescus) it is, rather, the Kim regime that seeks it's own self-preservation,at any cost...and the welfare of the people of North Korea comes well down the list of it's priorities.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I do not say this to absolve or deny the provocations committed by the North Koreans, I'm simply saying 'there's a pair of them in it'. It isn't a case of good vs evil, as some people seem to simplistically, foolishly believe.

Invading another country is more than an act of "provocation" and I'd say that The Kim regime is one of the most evil the twentieth century has seen.
The shortcoming or crimes of its enemies doesn't change that fact one iota.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

How can you blame the North Koreans for never surrendering, whilst apparently overlooking the belligerence of the USA, the country that was predominantly responsible for flattening North Korean urban centres and killing millions of people? Bizarre attitude. ..

The Belligerence was in response to the North Korean invasion. The North Koreans-often must I repeat this-didn't care a whit about the war. It was the fantasy of Kim Il-Sung to conquer the South. It was clear that after the front has stabilized at the current line that his dream was defunct. But he refused to face reality, and kept the war going until finally the reduction of his state to ruins and the impatience of his allies made him face the facts. The deaths of his people were on him. Nobody else. Just as the deaths of millions of Japanese are on the heads of the militarists.

ArchXStanton

ilkhanid wrote: »

QUOTE=Zebra3;103995121]I'm fully aware of the fact.
But the hypocrisy of some on here using it as a stick to beat NK while cheerleading America.

Why not? NK (or rather the Kims) needs a good beating....or a diet.[/quote]

The yanks could do with one too...another Vietnam preferably,never underestimate rice farmers in rubber flip flops

Zebra3

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

are posters not allowed to correct the mistakes of those who keep insisting that it was the south that invaded the north?

Of course they are, but people getting all high and mighty about NK invading one country while cheerleading the violence and threats of a country which has invaded a far greater number of countries is totally hypocritical.

Uncomfortable truth for a lot on here.

ilkhanid wrote: »

QUOTE=Zebra3;103995121]I'm fully aware of the fact.
But the hypocrisy of some on here using it as a stick to beat NK while cheerleading America.

Why not? NK (or rather the Kims) needs a good beating....or a diet.

What about invading the US? A lot of scummy war criminals in there deserve a good beating.

Cheerful Spring

Lets not forget we had a similar war of nutrition with Vietnam. Communist North vs Pro Western Government ( the South)

Communists won the war and the today Vietnam is a united country and actually doing well.

For me if the we just let the Koreans alone, the country would look uniquely different today. What is difference really between Communist from Vietnam and Communist North Korea, back then?

Nabber

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Lets not forget we had a similar war of nutrition with Vietnam. Communist North vs Pro Western Government ( the South)

Communists won the war and the today Vietnam is a united country and actually doing well.

For me if the we just let the Koreans alone, the country would look uniquely different today. What is difference really between Communist from Vietnam and Communist North Korea, back then?

I think they have gone past reconciliation.

Cheerful Spring

(CNN)The two-stage missile launched Tuesday by North Korea will be classified by US intelligence as a brand-new missile that has not been seen before, US officials told CNN.

This could mean NK is not lying potentially about hitting targets worldwide?

Cheerful Spring

Nabber wrote: »

I think they have gone past reconciliation.

We kind of forced them into that situation and now we left with a state who feels everybody wants to destroy them.

Gatling

Zebra3 wrote: »

What about invading the US? A lot of scummy war criminals in there deserve a good beating.

War crimes yada yada yada yada ,

Chosin Reservoir rings a bell

AnGaelach

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is preposterous. Nobody has claimed that North Korea acted in self-defence; nor that the US started the conflict.

Your fellow has been alleging the South Koreans were the ones to attack first, which is a falsehood, one that has been dismissed several times in this thread but they continue to persist in their fake history.

Nabber

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We kind of forced them into that situation and now we left with a state who feels everybody wants to destroy them.

We?

You mean, Japan, UK, USSR and USA?

They forced themselves into it. After 800years, Ireland still fought for independence for the island. We didn't get it, but we still believe in it.

I know Koreas circumstances are comparable. In this case I'd blame USSR/Russia before USA for this issue. They declared war on Japan after Hiroshima and began advancing on old Japanese colonies.

Valmont

I don't know if it's true but I read that in the event of another Korean war North Korea could shell the densely populated Seoul into oblivion. I'm guessing that's making the South Koreans a bit nervous listening to the American war machine firing up again.

Gatling

Valmont wrote: »

I don't know if it's true but I read that in the event of another Korean war North Korea could shell the densely populated Seoul into oblivion. I'm guessing that's making the South Koreans a bit nervous listening to the American war machine firing up again.

Yes more or less true they have around 15,000 artillery pieces aimed at Seoul at all times ,but life is going on as normal in south Korea no panic ,no mass evacuations just life going on as normal , while under threats from the north for the last 60 years .

Sooner or later the north will have to be dealt with either localised war or part of a larger global conflict ,

Cheerful Spring

Nabber wrote: »

We?

You mean, Japan, UK, USSR and USA?

They forced themselves into it. After 800years, Ireland still fought for independence for the island. We didn't get it, but we still believe in it.

I know Koreas circumstances are comparable. In this case I'd blame USSR/Russia before USA for this issue. They declared war on Japan after Hiroshima and began advancing on old Japanese colonies.

We do live near the UK and we live an American lifestyle of sorts. Look at people on this site supporting the western view of events? Location is important.

Cheerful Spring

AnGaelach wrote: »

Your fellow has been alleging the South Koreans were the ones to attack first, which is a falsehood, one that has been dismissed several times in this thread but they continue to persist in their fake history.

Historians don't all back the version of history it was the North who started it. There was border clashes and incidents leading up to this. The North got the upperhand quickly and it's reason we assume they attacked first. I not saying they did not attack first, but you got listen to both sides argument.

You where not there to determine who is right.

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We kind of forced them into that situation and now we left with a state who feels everybody wants to destroy them.

The Kims always knew that they were safe under the Chinese nuclear umbrella. They know the Chinese are wary of a state allied to the USA on their border.They are utterly cynical about the supposed threat from the South. The supposed fear is an extortion racket.
Let me repeat the obvious. No State that claims to be terrified of an enemy (or three enemies in North Korea's case) would engage in the sustained campaign of terror,murder, infiltration, kidnapping and assault against those enemies.
Let's look at the logic of this "We are frightened of the USA so we threaten to destroy their cities with nuclear weapons; We are frightened of South Korea so we try to murder their entire government on two occasions, attack their submarines, blow up their airliners and launch artillery barrages at their territory; We are frightened of Japan so we (Yes, really!) kidnap their citizens and use them to teach out secret agents Japanese.
Nations less patient than South Korea or Japan might have treated the world to the obliteration of enemy states for provocations less serious than those.
You don't claim you're afraid of the tiger... and then pull it's tail. You don't claim you're afraid of the hive...and then start whacking it. You don't claim you're afraid of the bull....and then start waving a red cape at it.

AnGaelach

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Historians don't all back the version of history it was the North who started it. There was border clashes and incidents leading up to this. The North got the upperhand quickly and it's reason we assume they attacked first. I not saying they did not attack first, but you got listen to both sides argument.

You where not there to determine who is right.

Yes you did. You claimed quite adamantly that the North Koreans launched a counter offensive, which is utter nonsense. Trying to muddy the waters of history with "you can't know since you weren't there" is moronic.

I wasn't alive in 1916 either but I still know what fecking happened.

Cheerful Spring

ilkhanid wrote: »

The Kims always knew that they were safe under the Chinese nuclear umbrella. They are utterly cynical about the supposed threat from the South. Let me repeat the obvious. No State that claims to be terrified of an enemy (or three enemies in North Korea's case) would engage in the sustained campaign of terror,murder, infiltration, kidnapping and assault against those enemies.
Let's look at the logic of this "We are frightened of the USA so we threaten to destroy their cities with nuclear weapons; We are frightened of South Korea so we try to murder their entire government on two occasions, attack their submarines, blow up; their airliners and launch artillery barrages at their territory; We are frightened of Japan so we (Yes, really!) kidnap their citizens and use them to teach out secrert agents Japanese.
Nations less patient than South Korea or Japan might have treated the world to the obliteration of enemy states for provocations less serious than those.

Only country to drop Nukes is the United States, they dropped not 1 but 2. And look at the nations who they threaten mostly in the videos. South Korea and United States..

I never seen them threaten Paris, Berlin Dublin, London?

Cheerful Spring

AnGaelach wrote: »

Yes you did. You claimed quite adamantly that the North Koreans launched a counter offensive, which is utter nonsense. Trying to muddy the waters of history with "you can't know since you weren't there" is moronic.

I wasn't alive in 1916 either but I still know what fecking happened.

I posted an alternative version of events reported by other historians. There was border clashes and insurgency crap occurring along the border that easily could have started the war. Syngman Rhee, the South leader was unpopular, he probably explains why the North beat he's army so easy. He was forced out in 1960, by the people a coup.

end of the road

ilkhanid wrote: »

The deaths of his people were on him. Nobody else. Just as the deaths of millions of Japanese are on the heads of the militarists.

no they were on the heads of america and co, who wanted to test out their new weaponry in a live environment in the case of japan, and in the case of nk, just because they felt like some more bombing.

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Syngman Rhee, the South leader was unpopular, he probably explains why the North beat he's army so easy..

More likely it was the large number of surplus T-34 tanks that the Soviets has supplied to Kim Il-Sung that secured the victory.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

He was forced out in 1960, by the people a coup.

Remarkable! It seems that the South Korea dicatators were rather ineffectual characters. The people of South Korea were actually able, with mass action, to effect change for the better in their country. Do you think that they'd have been able to overthrow Kim Il-Sung had he been in charge? That's tells us quite something about the nature of authoritarianism in the two Koreas!

end of the road wrote: »

no they were on the heads of america and co, who wanted to test out their new weaponry in a live environment in the case of japan, and in the case of nk, just because they felt like some more bombing.

And not apparently,on the heads of despots who refused to surrender and compromise in the face of utter defeat. Doubtless you think the deaths of the Germans were on the heads of the USA too, and not Hitler. You're probably a fan of the misunderstood Francisco Solano Lopez too?

Cheerful Spring

ilkhanid wrote: »

More likely it was the large number of surplus T-34 tanks that the Soviets has supplied to Kim Il-Sung that secured the victory.



Remarkable! It seems that the South Korea dicatators were rather ineffectual characters. The people of South Korea were actually able, with mass action, to effect change for the better in their country. Do you think that they'd have been able to overthrow Kim Il-Sung had he been in charge? That's tells us quite something about the nature of authoritarianism in the two Koreas!



And not apparently,on the heads of despots who refused to surrender and compromise in the face of utter defeat. Doubtless you think the deaths of the Germans were on the heads of the USA too, and not Hitler. You're probably a fan of the misunderstood Francisco Solano Lopez too?

Sure tanks do help. I said before this was a civil war not an international war. It's war between the same people. We without any evidence declared war on them at the UN.

I sure if we left Korea alone it be just like Vietnam today. No threats of missiles or bombing countries. We probably be buying cars from them and visiting NK on holiday.

ilkhanid

ilkhanid wrote: »

Aggressive and provocative acts? Any things that the South Koreans have done pale in comparison to the decades long campaign of infiltration, murder, kidnapping and terrorism that that North has wrecked on the South.

Yes, the North did all of those things, but you seem to think the South is guilty of little more than propaganda loudspeakers. Is that what you think?

What do you know of the concentration camps the government in South Korea built to imprison and torture leftists, under the eye (and implicit approval) of the Americans? Or its indoctrination of a cult of hatred of North Koreans, beginning in school?

What about the US decision to publicly announce its decision to aim its weapons at North Korea, whilst North Korea was still a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty? What about 300,000 troops engaged in military exercises on the DPRK border?

What about the USA only recently launching missiles, 12 times more powerful than the recent DPRK launch, into the Pacific? What bout South Korea doing similar tests in the direction of North Korea?

Again, none of this excuses North Korea, which has done many of the same things; sometimes worse. It's simply a clarification that both sides are provoking & antagonising one another.

AnGaelach wrote: »

Your fellow has been alleging the South Koreans were the ones to attack first, which is a falsehood, one that has been dismissed several times in this thread but they continue to persist in their fake history.

Then perhaps you should be challenging him. I haven't read every single post on this thread, but I did not make such a claim.

Most 'debates' on North Korea happen along the lines of both sides claiming that the enemy is a brutal, evil, comic-book villain. Unfortunately that's also happening in this thread.

I am simply suggesting we take a long and historical, and also a critical view of the narrative on both sides. Real life is rarely as black and white as the opposing narratives in this thread would seem to claim.

Gatling

So south Korea modern country with a strong economic development and growth and a leader in technology ,

North Korea a backward state led by several autocratic almighty God like rulers ,poor economic development or growth for the last 40 odd years ,
Concentration camps and mass starvation but big spenders on missles , who have been writing there own alternative history ,who have been threatening south Korea and other states for decades and it's the south considered the bad guys by some in this .

Skylinehead

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

(CNN)The two-stage missile launched Tuesday by North Korea will be classified by US intelligence as a brand-new missile that has not been seen before, US officials told CNN.

This could mean NK is not lying potentially about hitting targets worldwide?

No, they're lying. No missile on the planet can hit targets worldwide.

Cheerful Spring

Skylinehead wrote: »

No, they're lying. No missile on the planet can hit targets worldwide.

It depends where it fired from, and longest range of an ICBM IS 16,000 KM. If you firing a missile left or right you pretty much going to hit most land based cities worldwide.

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

and it's the south considered the bad guys by some in this .

I think you missed the point entirely.

It isn't as simple as bad guys vs good guys. And you don't have to agree with either side (as i don't) to see where each of them are coming from.

Skylinehead

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It depends where it fired from, and longest range of an ICBM IS 16,000 KM. If you firing a missile left or right you pretty much going to hit most land based cities worldwide.

No, it literally doesn't depend where it's fired from, the world is a sphere. Sure, you can move a submarine, but that's not what they claimed, and there's no way that missile goes on a sub.

Cheerful Spring

Skylinehead wrote: »

No, it literally doesn't depend where it's fired from, the world is a sphere. Sure, you can move a submarine, but that's not what they claimed, and there's no way that missile goes on a sub.

World is Sphere, so what? If North Korea had a landed based missile like this they going to hit most of the world with it.

Cheerful Spring

US Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley has said America is prepared to use military force against North Korea in the wake of its latest missile test.

Ms Haley said the test, of an intercontinental ballistic missile possibly capable of hitting Alaska, was "reckless and irresponsible, and made the world a more dangerous place".

She added that the US is prepared to use its full range of capabilities – including military force – to deter North Korea if necessary.

UN meeting-video

https://www.rt.com/on-air/395403-unsc-meeting-north-korea/