US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

archer22

During the Korean war America wanted to drop nuclear bombs on both North Korea and China...that tells you the kind of terrorist genocidal savages the good old USA are.

The only reason they didn't is because the ground war stabilised and they also had some fears the Soviet Union could respond to this genocide with a nuclear strike on America.

After this China began working flat out on developing its own nuclear bombs to deter America...a goal it achieved and there has never been any talk of launching a nuclear strike against China since...even during the Vietnam war they gave China a wide berth.
So yes Kim Jong Un knows what he is doing....if he has the right weapons his nation will be safe from American aggression, its what the Chinese proved 50 odd years ago.

Cheerful Spring

North Korea released the footage of this launch!

Gatling

archer22 wrote: »

During the Korean war America wanted to drop nuclear bombs on both North Korea and China...that tells you the kind of terrorist genocidal savages the good old USA are.

The only reason they didn't is because the ground war stabilised and they also had some fears the Soviet Union could respond to this genocide with a nuclear strike on America.

.

Explain why russia was planning on dropping nukes on china too

Cheerful Spring

BREAKING: US ambassador says China risks its trade with the United States if Beijing's trade with North Korea violates UN sanctions.

Threatening China is not the way to solve this issue.

archer22

Gatling wrote: »

Explain why russia was planning on dropping nukes on china too

The Soviet Union gave much technical help to the Chinese in the early stages of their nuclear programme.
There was a short period in the early 1960's when China and the Soviet Union had a border dispute.
However this dispute was short lived and they returned to good relations.

I am unaware of any serious threat of nuclear conflict between them.

archer22

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

BREAKING: US ambassador says China risks its trade with the United States if Beijing's trade with North Korea violates UN sanctions.

Threatening China is not the way to solve this issue.

China simply needs to demand full repayment of the American debt to China and stop lending them any more money....this will collapse the American economy.

Cheerful Spring

Sounds like there be military action if 1 or 2 more incidents occur.


"Make no mistake, North Korea's launch of an ICBM is a clear and sharp military escalation," said Nikki Haley, U.S. ambassador to the U.N., at an emergency Security Council meeting. "Their actions are quickly closing off the possibility of a diplomatic solution. The United States is prepared to use the full range of our capabilities to defend ourselves and our allies. One of our capabilities lies with our considerable military forces. We will use them, if we must, but we prefer not to have to go in that direction."

Haley acknowledged the potential for conflict, but her most immediate threat was leveled at countries that have provided North Korea with economic lifelines in the face of international sanctions. Haley said she briefed Trump on the issue this morning — the president tweeted a complaint about growing trade ties between China and North Korea — and promised that the United States would use trade levers to punish such behavior.

"The world is on notice," Haley said. "If we act together we can still prevent a catastrophe and we will rid the world of a grave threat. If we fault to act in a serious way, there will be a different response."

North Korea conducted its first launch of an intercontinental ballistic missile, demonstrating long-range missile capabilities that the Pentagon had not seen before Tuesday's test. "We should be worried: Every test gets the North Koreans closer to mastering the technology for mounting a nuclear weapon on a ballistic missile powerful enough to strike the United States and its allies," Jean Lee, a North Korea expert at the Wilson Center in Washington D.C., said of the test.

Haley announced that the U.S. will introduce a new security resolution proposing tougher economic sanctions to cut off North Korea's access to funding. "We will not look exclusively at North Korea," she said. "We will look at any country that chooses to do business with this outlaw regime. We will not have patience for stalling or talking our way down to a watered down resolution."

China and Russia have been the target of high-profile criticism over North Korea by the State Department. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, for instance, accused both nations of paying the North Korean regime for slave labor. "Responsible nations simply cannot allow this to go on, and we continue to call on any nation that is hosting workers from North Korea in a forced labor arrangement to send those people home," Tillerson said while unveiling a report on human trafficking.

Haley suggested that, in order to forestall a military conflict, the Trump administration might be willing to embrace a trade war with North Korea's patron states.

"There are countries that are allowing, even encouraging, trade with North Korea in violation of UN Security Council resolutions," she told the UN. "Such countries would also like to continue their trade arrangements with the United States. That's not gonna happen. Our attitude on trade changes when countries do not take international security threats seriously."

ilkhanid

archer22 wrote: »

During the Korean war America wanted to drop nuclear bombs on both North Korea and China...that tells you the kind of terrorist genocidal savages the good old USA are.
The only reason they didn't is because the ground war stabilised and they also had some fears the Soviet Union could respond to this genocide with a nuclear strike on America.

"America" did nothing of the kind. One out-of-control general wanted to do this and he was swiftly put in his place by the Truman administration.

archer22 wrote: »

After this China began working flat out on developing its own nuclear bombs to deter America...a goal it achieved and there has never been any talk of launching a nuclear strike against China since...even during the Vietnam war they gave China a wide berth.
So yes Kim Jong Un knows what he is doing....if he has the right weapons his nation will be safe from American aggression, its what the Chinese proved 50 odd years ago.

If Kim Jong-Un launches an attack-conventional or otherwise-upon South Korea, neither nuclear weapons or China will be able to save him

archer22 wrote: »

The Soviet Union gave much technical help to the Chinese in the early stages of their nuclear programme.
There was a short period in the early 1960's when China and the Soviet Union had a border dispute.
However this dispute was short lived and they returned to good relations.I am unaware of any serious threat of nuclear conflict between them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

Not quite as trivial as you imagine.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Sure tanks do help. I said before this was a civil war not an international war. It's war between the same people.

So what? Germany was also two states, but one people. There are other divided nations in the world.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I sure if we left Korea alone it be just like Vietnam today. No threats of missiles or bombing countries. We probably be buying cars from them and visiting NK on holiday.

That's one idiotic statement. The notion that because one Asian Communist nation ended up a relatively-I emphasize the word-benign state, another would too is a groundless assumption. I'll let you into a secret:Marxist states tended, on the whole to be ruthless dictatorships.
At best (Cuba, Yugoslavia, Hungary,Vietnam-only in the nineties and later), they still were autocratic, dogmatic,obsessed with Party authority and control freakery over all of society);at their worst they descended into genocidal psychopathy. More Marxist states leaned towards the latter than the former. Even China which is more "normal" now took 40 years and tens of millions dead at the hands of Mao to get where it is today. Ceaucescu was more the norm than Tito. Yet, you imagine that a state that leaned far more in the Stalinist/ Maoist direction, a state that is arguably the most totalitarian, controlling state that has ever existed, would have-had it controlled the entire Korean peninsula instead of half of it-morphed into cuddly Communists. You mention Vietnam. Well, let me suggest another model:"Democratic" Kampuchea.
Maybe the Allies should have let Stalin take all of Germany as well. I'm sure we'd be buying cars from the bigger GDR too.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What do you know of the concentration camps the government in South Korea built to imprison and torture leftists, under the eye (and implicit approval) of the Americans? ?

And yet that makes all the more remarkable that it was the South that evolved into a democratic state, and the North grows worse under every generation of the Kim dynasty.At it's worst, the South was "only" a normal dictatorship, whereas the North turned into a state where you wouldn't be imprisoned and maltreated for protesting or rioting against the government-you'd never get the chance-but one where you would be imprisoned for having let dust gather on Kim Jong-Il's picture!.The South became democratic while under threat from the North, which makes nonsense of the notion that it's only the threat from the USA that keeps the North an insane despotism.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What about the US decision to publicly announce its decision to aim its weapons at North Korea, whilst North Korea was still a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty? What about 300,000 troops engaged in military exercises on the DPRK border? What about the USA only recently launching missiles, 12 times more powerful than the recent DPRK launch, into the Pacific? What about South Korea doing similar tests in the direction of North Korea?

So? Because the South knows all too well what North Korea is capable of, and they know that it has never given up it's ambitions to conquer the South.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Again, none of this excuses North Korea

Correct, it doesn't excuse, justify or explain it.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

which has done many of the same things; sometimes worse.

That's some euphemism! Nothing the South has done is in the same league. In the days of the Rhee dictatorship the government kept people in camps. In the North the whole country is a prison. There are concentration camps ten miles long and five broad. You can be sent to one for being married to, or the parents of, or the children of a dissident. Only The Nazis in modern times have done that. Never mind the South, the DPKR have committed terrorist acts in Burma, kidnappings in Japan and they used chemical weapons in Malaysia to murder a man only a few months ago. They engage in conterfeiting and smuggling, thumbing their noses at all international legal norms. They have as much contempt for all other countries as they have for the South. Quietly, they even despise China.

archer22

If America attacks North Korea it way well spell the end of America as a superpower...China will likely get dragged in and potentially have to use its DF-21D mach 10 ballistic missile system to sink the American aircraft carriers.

Gatling

archer22 wrote: »

The Soviet Union gave much technical help to the Chinese

I am unaware of any serious threat of nuclear conflict between them.

Mao never trusted the Russians , russia feared Chinese military strength so drew up several serious plans to launch multiple nuclear strikes against Chinese targets ,to prevent China making a move against Soviet states ,

Cheerful Spring

archer22 wrote: »

If America attacks North Korea it way well spell the end of America as a superpower...China will likely get dragged in and potentially have to use its DF-21D mach 10 ballistic missile system to sink the American aircraft carriers.

China only jumped in last time to defend itself.

Haley is threatening an economic embargo against countries that do trade with North Korea. If this not played right China and Russia could turn hostile. This would be a economic blockade of North Korea potentially, shutting it down?

AnGaelach

archer22 wrote: »

China simply needs to demand full repayment of the American debt to China and stop lending them any more money....this will collapse the American economy.

China holds about 5% of US debt. That's not going to "collapse the American economy" or anything of the sort. China relies more heavily on the US than the US relies on China.

Who do you think is going to collapse quicker, the people buying cheap t-shirts or the ones selling the cheap t-shirts?

AnGaelach

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We without any evidence declared war on them at the UN.

Stop peddling lies, the United Nations Security Council authorised intervention because the North Koreans invaded South Korea. Repeating a lie does not make it true.

Amirani

archer22 wrote: »

China simply needs to demand full repayment of the American debt to China and stop lending them any more money....this will collapse the American economy.

That's not how bond contracts work...

Not a chance a Chinese embargo on buying US treasuries collapses the US economy, you're being sensationalist.

Bobeagleburger

It's all posturing

Cheerful Spring

AnGaelach wrote: »

Stop peddling lies, the United Nations Security Council authorised intervention because the North Koreans invaded South Korea. Repeating a lie does not make it true.

Wrong. There was no investigation of the incident, all blame NK.

Again China and Russia so called bad guys did not jump in to defend South Korea. What the UN business involving itself with a civil war? You should know better we start wars to benefit other interests. We got examples recently Iraq, Libya, Syria. 3000 people died 9/11 and yes it was horrible, but how many more ordinary people have we killed since then and they are faceless, because nobody gave a crap.

AnGaelach

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Wrong. There was no investigation of the incident, all blame NK.

Again China and Russia so called bad guys did not jump in to defend South Korea. What the UN business involving itself with a civil war? You should know better we start wars to benefit other interests. We got examples recently Iraq, Libya, Syria. 3000 people died 9/11 and yes it was horrible, but how many more ordinary people have we killed since then and they are faceless, because nobody gave a crap.

Calling it a civil war does not make it one. They were two different entities and recognised as such. I'm done replying to your fake history.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Wrong. There was no investigation of the incident, all blame NK.

Again China and Russia so called bad guys did not jump in to defend South Korea.

But russia condemned the North Koreans and called for the south to be armed to Defend themselves ,
All while sending forces to fight the south

archer22

AnGaelach wrote: »

China holds about 5% of US debt. That's not going to "collapse the American economy" or anything of the sort. China relies more heavily on the US than the US relies on China.

Who do you think is going to collapse quicker, the people buying cheap t-shirts or the ones selling the cheap t-shirts?

Its not all one way trade...Louisiana,Oregon, South Carolina and Texas all claim China as their largest export market.

A trade war with China would have very serious consequences for those States and overall for the USA in general.

Trump might think China is the only one that would take a hit in a trade war..but he will face the ire of a lot of newly unemployed Americans as well should he chose to barge ahead without considering all the consequences.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

But russia condemned the North Koreans and called for the south to be armed to Defend themselves ,
All while sending forces to fight the south

This is the vote. Russia was not even there
The resolution passed with the votes from the United Kingdom, the Republic of China (Taiwan), Cuba, Ecuador, France, Norway and the United States.

The Kingdom of Egypt, India and the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia abstained.[1] The Soviet Union, a veto-wielding power, was absent,[1] having been boycotting proceedings since January, in protest that the Republic of China ( Taiwan) and not the People's Republic of China held a permanent seat on the council.[2] The Council President at that time was Norwegian Arne Sunde.[1]

Cheerful Spring

AnGaelach wrote: »

Calling it a civil war does not make it one. They were two different entities and recognised as such. I'm done replying to your fake history.

American civil war was exactly this: two different entities and recognised as such

bennyl10

archer22 wrote: »

China simply needs to demand full repayment of the American debt to China and stop lending them any more money....this will collapse the American economy.

cil

Collapse?.. no. God almighty no.

Slightly inconvenience at most

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This is the vote. Russia was not even there
The resolution passed with the votes from the United Kingdom, the Republic of China (Taiwan), Cuba, Ecuador, France, Norway and the United States.

Because they boycotted the UN at the time.

archer22

bennyl10 wrote: »

cil

Collapse?.. no. God almighty no.

Slightly inconvenience at most

Ok I accept collapse is too strong but combined with the effects of a trade war and less confidence in the Dollar...It won't be just China that feels pain, America will feel a lot of it as well.
America can start a trade war...but its a double edged sword.

BillyBobBS

RoboKlopp wrote: »

It's all posturing

It's not at all. The US has said it will not let NK get a nuke on a ICBM. We have just crossed a line where they now have ICBM's. According to various reports today NK are anywhere between 3-18 months from having the capability of hitting the US with a ICBM loaded with a warhead.

I think it's pretty simple, either China step up and sort this out once and for all or we will see massive death and destruction in that part of the world.

AnGaelach

archer22 wrote: »

Its not all one way trade...Louisiana,Oregon, South Carolina and Texas all claim China as their largest export market.

A trade war with China would have very serious consequences for those States and overall for the USA in general.

Trump might think China is the only one that would take a hit in a trade war..but he will face the ire of a lot of newly unemployed Americans as well should he chose to barge ahead without considering all the consequences.

So you've gone from "America collapsing" to a handful of specific states experiencing a downturn? It didn't expect you to roll back on what you said so quickly.

If the US and China get into a trade war, China is the one that'll capitulate first.

archer22

AnGaelach wrote: »

So you've gone from "America collapsing" to a handful of specific states experiencing a downturn? It didn't expect you to roll back on what you said so quickly.

If the US and China get into a trade war, China is the one that'll capitulate first.

Who the hell knows maybe it will collapse...be the best thing that ever happened.

And how do you know "China is the one that'll capitulate first" who are you...Mystic AnGaelach looking into your crystal ball.

China sells to the World...America is only 6% of the worlds population.

Of course America will collapse. All empires fall, eventually. It's a question of when, not if.

My guess is that it capitalism falls in the next 200 years, it will be as a direct consequence of the end of America as a superpower.

SeanW

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

BREAKING: US ambassador says China risks its trade with the United States if Beijing's trade with North Korea violates UN sanctions.

Threatening China is not the way to solve this issue.

Why not? Red China created North Korea because they didn't want a democracy on their borders. China not only supports North Korea, its nuclear aggression, kidnappings, airline bombings and other forms of terrorism, but is engaged in its own violations of international law by trying to steal islands and maritime territory from virtually all of their neighbors, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei. They're even looking for a fight with India because they're trying to steal the entire state of Arunchal Pradesh from them.
They've also invaded, annexed and continue to occupy and commit cultural genocide against the peoples of Tibet and East Turkestan. Then there's also their lovely practice of murdering Falun Gong practitioners so that they can sell their organs.

They ensured the survival of North Korea after NK started the Korean war, and they continue to back it to the hilt. Therefore, they are 100% responsible for everything NK does.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is preposterous. Nobody has claimed that North Korea acted in self-defence; nor that the US started the conflict.

This thread is full of precisely such claims.

But more importantly, I think you need to learn the meaning of the term 'belligerence'. 90% of the 'UN' troops were Americans, and it was the American military which was almost totally responsible for flattening North Korea, and for killing a substantial proportion of its population. These were acts of belligerence, i.e. war, whether UN-sanctioned or not.

Perhaps. But when you start a war of aggression, you don't get to complain when the victims bite back.

I do not say this to absolve or deny the provocations committed by the North Koreans, I'm simply saying 'there's a pair of them in it'. It isn't a case of good vs evil, as some people seem to simplistically, foolishly believe.

BS. It's a close to good vs. evil as it is possible to have, such as US vs. Nazis, SDF vs. ISIS. Most of the worst mass murderers were Socialists (Mao Zedong #1, Josef Stalin #2, Pol Pot somewhere in the top 5 another Communist. )

Whether its slaughtering millions in "purges" of people on suspicion of not supporting Communism, causing famines, invading sovereign states with the express intent of exterminating the group (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Tibet, East Turkestan etc), bombing civilian airliners, invading other nations and kidnapping their citizens, or shooting down civilian airliners as a prelude to a genocidal war of aggression, Communism's history is steeped in blood. To remove bloodshed, human rights abuses from Communism would be to remove from Communism its entire reason for existence.

Communism without unspeakable evil, repression and human rights abuses, would be like meringue without sugar and egg whites, or tea without caffeine, or a pub without beer.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

For me if the we just let the Koreans alone, the country would look uniquely different today. What is difference really between Communist from Vietnam and Communist North Korea, back then?

Because ignoring evil has had such a good track record? How well did that work with the Nazis? Even though Hitler was only the 3rd worst mass killer in history (his crimes were eclipsed in large measure by Communists) peaceful co-existence with the Nazis as advocated by Neville Chamberlain was a pipe dream. The same has been true both in the last century and the current one, of Communism.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Only country to drop Nukes is the United States, they dropped not 1 but 2.

The United States was either the defender (against the Empire of Japan) or coming to the aid of the defender (Britain and France against Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy) in World War II. As above, you start a fight, you can't complain about getting a bloody nose.

And look at the nations who they threaten mostly in the videos. South Korea and United States..

And Japan. Which has not committed aggression against any nation since WWII, but has been the victim of aggression by Communists almost continuously since then.

I never seen them threaten Paris, Berlin Dublin, London?

They don't have missiles that can threaten Western Europe yet. But we would be foolish to assume they don't have hostile intentions beyond South Korea, Japan and the United States. In the early part of World War I, few believed that the German Empire would invade France through the Neutral countries like Belgium. They did exactly that, exterminating entire villages en-route. Soviet plans for invading the United Kingdom (thankfully never put into practice) called for using nuclear weapons against Neutral Ireland specifically our 3 largest cities. Just because an evil dictator isn't threatening you now, doesn't mean that will always be the case.

end of the road wrote: »

no they were on the heads of america and co, who wanted to test out their new weaponry in a live environment in the case of japan, and in the case of nk, just because they felt like some more bombing.

>_< words fail me.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think you missed the point entirely.

It isn't as simple as bad guys vs good guys. And you don't have to agree with either side (as i don't) to see where each of them are coming from.

No it really is simple. Communism is evil. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

archer22 wrote: »

During the Korean war America wanted to drop nuclear bombs on both North Korea and China...that tells you the kind of terrorist genocidal savages the good old USA are.

The only reason they didn't is because the ground war stabilised and they also had some fears the Soviet Union could respond to this genocide with a nuclear strike on America.

No. General McArthur wanted to use small scale "tactical" nukes (i.e. much less than the 2 used in Japan) as a counter-measure against the Chinese invasion force, that had attacked the US without provocation. President Truman nixed the idea because he understood - correctly - that this as precedent would open Pandora's Box.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b379aN45VEE

So yes Kim Jong Un knows what he is doing....if he has the right weapons his nation will be safe from American aggression,

Ha ha ha ha, "safe from American aggression" ... oh wait, you're actually serious. Wow. Tell me, how will this protect South Korea and Japan from North Korean aggression, that is, regular border incursions, bombing civilian airliners, kidnapping civilians and so on.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Wrong. There was no investigation of the incident, all blame NK.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a rhinoceros.

Again China and Russia so called bad guys did not jump in to defend South Korea. What the UN business involving itself with a civil war?

The Soviet Union and the Chinese were Communists so they were either neutral or on the side of the North. And it wasn't a "civil war" it was a war of aggression by a Communist state, against a non-Communist state. Just like virtually all wars involving Communists. Get your facts straight.

John108679908

North Korea is being used by the Chinese as a measuring stick as to how far Trump can be pushed.
Personally he should drop a bomb on fat boy in ponyang and then one in Beijing to sort those yellow bellies out.
I hear it's the Chinese that own that building in Cork that burned down-owned through an Irish investement company.