US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

archer22

I wonder how the average American will react to Trumps trade war...ok at first they will be cheering and flag waving, but then when they head into Walmart etc and find the shelves empty, or if they can find something American made it will cost 5 or 6 times more...the cheering and flag waving will subside

Also most of the few industries they still have in America will have to shut their doors when all the cut price electronics they use won't be arriving anymore.

One thing is certain inflation will be going through the roof there and the poorest Americans will be driven to complete destitution.

end of the road

AnGaelach wrote: »

Calling it a civil war does not make it one.

it does make it one when it was one, which it was.

AnGaelach wrote: »

They were two different entities and recognised as such. I'm done replying to your fake history.

he hasn't posted any fake history. both entities are of the same country, but with split rule.

end of the road

SeanW wrote: »

The United States was either the defender (against the Empire of Japan) or coming to the aid of the defender (Britain and France against Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy) in World War II.

the US was nothing of the sort. it only got involved for it's own gains. it wanted to have the influence.

SeanW wrote: »

Ha ha ha ha, "safe from American aggression" ... oh wait, you're actually serious. Wow.

america have done nothing but get involved in aggression for as long as it has been able to.

SeanW wrote: »

The Soviet Union and the Chinese were Communists so they were either neutral or on the side of the North. And it wasn't a "civil war" it was a war of aggression by a Communist state, against a non-Communist state. Just like virtually all wars involving Communists. Get your facts straight.

it was a civil war. both sides of korea are the same country but with split rule.

SeanW

end of the road wrote: »

the US was nothing of the sort. it only got involved for it's own gains. it wanted to have the influence.

Nonsense. the US was dragged into World War II on account of the attack on Pearl Harbor, HI, by the Empire of Japan. Prior to this unprovoked, surprise attack, which was not preceded by a declaration of war, discourse in the United States was dominated by those advocating a position of neutrality in events in Europe and East Asia.

america have done nothing but get involved in aggression for as long as it has been able to.

Bull****. Virtually all wars the U.S. was involved in were started by other nations, either attacking the U.S. directly or dragging them in by proxy. WWI - started by Europeans, the US only got involved when a bunch of their citizens were murdered by Germany on the RMS Lusitania. WWII - started by Europeans and the Empire of Japan. The Cold, Vietnam and Korean wars - started by Communists. Iraq 1 - started by Saddam Hussains invasion of Kuwait. Serbia - caused by Slobadan Milosevic. Afghanistan 1 - started by Communists in 1979/1980. Afghanistan 2 - started by Al Queda and the Taliban.

it was a civil war. both sides of korea are the same country but with split rule.

There was no such entity as "Korea"
only 2 sovereign states:

1. North Korea, which was Communist
2. South Korea, which was not Communist

The war was caused by Communist North Korea invading the non-Communist South. This mirrors most of human history in the latter half of the 20th century:

1. The Korean war, started by North Korea with the eventual backing of Red China.
2. Continuous aggression by North Korea since then against South Korea, Japan and the U.S. This includes bombing civilian airliners, attempted assassinations against the Southern government, and kidnapping of civilians from Japan. And it continues to the present day with regular border incursions against the R.O.K. and extraterritorial murders. Oh and they also murdered a US citizen recently, Otto Warmbier.
3. The Soviet invasion of Finland during WWII
4. The Soviet invasion of Estonia, preceded by the murder of civilians and diplomats on the Finnair Kaleva. This was followed by a brutal regime of cultural genocide, similar to the British Empire's attempt to Anglocise Ireland.
5. The Soviet invasion and annexation of Latvia.
6. The Soviet invasion and annexation of Lithuania.
7. The Soviet invasion, annexation and attempted extermination of the people of Ukraine. Similar to the British Empire's policies in Ireland, especially with the "planters". See Estonia.
8. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan beginning in 1979.
9. The Soviet contributions to the Arabs efforts to "drive the Jews into the sea" throughout the 1960s and 1970s. (Though you probably supported that).
10. The subjugation of the remainder of Eastern Europe by the Soviet Union in the Communist Bloc.
11. The Chinese invasion, annexation and ongoing cultural genocide against the people of Tibet.
12. The Chinese invasion, annexation and ongoing cultural genocide against the people of East Turkestan.
13. The Chinese territorial thefts from Vietnam, Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia.
14. The Chinese ongoing efforts to steal the Senkaku Islands from Japan, and Arunachal Pradesh from India.
15. Continuous aggression by North Vietnam against South Vietnam, until they finally destroyed the South in 1975.
16. Pol Pot.
17. The ongoing tragedy in Venezuela, which was one of Latin Americas' wealthiest countries at the beginning of this century.

In your pathological rants about the supposedly evil U.S. you've chosen to overlook the worst evil in all of modern human history, rivaling only ISIS and related groups in terms of their evil, brutality and toxic effects on mankind. Why?

end of the road

SeanW wrote: »

Bull****. Virtually all wars the U.S. was involved in were started by other nations, either attacking the U.S. directly or dragging them in by proxy.

the US were never dragged into anything by proxy. they chose to get involved when they saw a chance to implement a puppet government in whatever country they could.

SeanW wrote: »

The Korean war, started by North Korea with the eventual backing of Red China.
Continuous aggression by North Korea since then against South Korea, Japan and the U.S. This includes bombing civilian airliners, attempted assassinations against the Southern government, and kidnapping of civilians from Japan. And it continues to the present day with regular border incursions against the R.O.K. and extraterritorial murders. Oh and they also murdered a US citizen recently, Otto Warmbier.
The Soviet invasion of Finland during WWII
The Soviet invasion of Estonia, preceded by the murder of civilians and diplomats on the Finnair Kaleva. This was followed by a brutal regime of cultural genocide, similar to the British Empire's attempt to Anglocise Ireland.
The Soviet invasion and annexation of Latvia.
The Soviet invasion and annexation of Lithuania.
The Soviet invasion, annexation and attempted extermination of the people of Ukraine. Similar to the British Empire's policies in Ireland, especially with the "planters". See Estonia.
The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan beginning in 1979.
The Soviet contributions to the Arabs efforts to "drive the Jews into the sea" throughout the 1960s and 1970s. (Though you probably supported that).
The subjugation of the remainder of Eastern Europe by the Soviet Union in the Communist Bloc.
The Chinese invasion, annexation and ongoing cultural genocide against the people of Tibet.
The Chinese invasion, annexation and ongoing cultural genocide against the people of East Turkestan.
The Chinese territorial thefts from Vietnam, Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia.
The Chinese ongoing efforts to steal the Senkaku Islands from Japan, and Arunachal Pradesh from India.
Continuous aggression by North Vietnam against South Vietnam, until they finally destroyed the South in 1975.
Pol Pot.
The ongoing tragedy in Venezuela, which was one of Latin Americas' wealthiest countries at the beginning of this century.


In your pathological rants about the supposedly evil U.S. you've chosen to overlook the worst evil in all of modern human history, rivaling only ISIS and related groups in terms of their evil, brutality and toxic effects on mankind. Why?

i haven't overlooked any of it. however, the US have done exactly the same to other countries. america is not a good guy. that is reality.

Cheerful Spring

SeanW wrote: »

Nonsense. the US was dragged into World War II on account of the attack on Pearl Harbor, HI, by the Empire of Japan. Prior to this unprovoked, surprise attack, which was not preceded by a declaration of war, discourse in the United States was dominated by those advocating a position of neutrality in events in Europe and East Asia.

Bull****. Virtually all wars the U.S. was involved in were started by other nations, either attacking the U.S. directly or dragging them in by proxy. WWI - started by Europeans, the US only got involved when a bunch of their citizens were murdered by Germany on the RMS Lusitania. WWII - started by Europeans and the Empire of Japan. The Cold, Vietnam and Korean wars - started by Communists. Iraq 1 - started by Saddam Hussains invasion of Kuwait. Serbia - caused by Slobadan Milosevic. Afghanistan 1 - started by Communists in 1979/1980. Afghanistan 2 - started by Al Queda and the Taliban.



There was no such entity as "Korea"
only 2 sovereign states:

1. North Korea, which was Communist
2. South Korea, which was not Communist

The war was caused by Communist North Korea invading the non-Communist South. This mirrors most of human history in the latter half of the 20th century:

1. The Korean war, started by North Korea with the eventual backing of Red China.
2. Continuous aggression by North Korea since then against South Korea, Japan and the U.S. This includes bombing civilian airliners, attempted assassinations against the Southern government, and kidnapping of civilians from Japan. And it continues to the present day with regular border incursions against the R.O.K. and extraterritorial murders. Oh and they also murdered a US citizen recently, Otto Warmbier.
3. The Soviet invasion of Finland during WWII
4. The Soviet invasion of Estonia, preceded by the murder of civilians and diplomats on the Finnair Kaleva. This was followed by a brutal regime of cultural genocide, similar to the British Empire's attempt to Anglocise Ireland.
5. The Soviet invasion and annexation of Latvia.
6. The Soviet invasion and annexation of Lithuania.
7. The Soviet invasion, annexation and attempted extermination of the people of Ukraine. Similar to the British Empire's policies in Ireland, especially with the "planters". See Estonia.
8. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan beginning in 1979.
9. The Soviet contributions to the Arabs efforts to "drive the Jews into the sea" throughout the 1960s and 1970s. (Though you probably supported that).
10. The subjugation of the remainder of Eastern Europe by the Soviet Union in the Communist Bloc.
11. The Chinese invasion, annexation and ongoing cultural genocide against the people of Tibet.
12. The Chinese invasion, annexation and ongoing cultural genocide against the people of East Turkestan.
13. The Chinese territorial thefts from Vietnam, Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia.
14. The Chinese ongoing efforts to steal the Senkaku Islands from Japan, and Arunachal Pradesh from India.
15. Continuous aggression by North Vietnam against South Vietnam, until they finally destroyed the South in 1975.
16. Pol Pot.
17. The ongoing tragedy in Venezuela, which was one of Latin Americas' wealthiest countries at the beginning of this century.

In your pathological rants about the supposedly evil U.S. you've chosen to overlook the worst evil in all of modern human history, rivaling only ISIS and related groups in terms of their evil, brutality and toxic effects on mankind. Why?

Estonia, Finland, Lithunania, Latvia are lands right next door to Russia. And let's not forget this was at time when pretty much every nation on Earth was fighting someone.

Soviet Union again never mobilized their vast armies to help South Korea or Vietnam. America did. It was coup organised by the Americans again that let the Soviet Union to invade Afghanistan.

The only reason they annexed Eastern Europe, was to push the Nazis out and back towards West Berlin. When we got the East vs West (cold war fight )going it was lot harder to hand back independence.

SeanW

SeanW wrote: »

Why not? Red China created North Korea because they didn't want a democracy on their borders.

Wow. That's quite the clanger. North Korea was created by The United States' Joint Chiefs of Staffs in 1945, prior to the Japanese surrender. A line along the 38th parallell was chosen by Charles Bonesteel and Dean Rusk. It was accepted by the Soviets.

To claim that China... China! ... is responsible for the division of Korea is nothing short of astonishing ignorance.

They ensured the survival of North Korea after NK started the Korean war, and they continue to back it to the hilt.

Again, ridiculous. You need to read a history book. The Chinese exerted approximately equal influence in DPRK as the Soviets did, and this influence was mainly in terms of defence. China only began to have more influence on the DPRK in the 1960s, after the Sino-Soviet split.

BS. It's a close to good vs. evil as it is possible to have

What does evil mean, as a concept? What is the formal imperative from which we can derive an interpretation of "evil"?

Nobody defends starvation and malnutrition in Africa, but neither do they describe our yawning non-interest in it 'evil'. Nobody defends the last American war on Iraq, but they shift uncomfortably in their seats if you say "Bush was evil" (if you say 'America is evil', they laugh openly).

Americans drop bombs from drones on innocent civilians; but it isn't evil because they don't use machetes like "evil" Rwandans.

Maybe we should stick to the word 'cruel'. The Stalinist terror, the attacks on the World Trade Tower, the American belligerence in Korea -- these were all acts of cruelty. But the crucial difference between 'evil' and 'cruelty' is that cruelty, as a concept, is easier to pin-down and agree on. Cruelty can be useful or it can be inappropriate, cruelty is natural to all animals, and cruelty can deserve to be met with either pity, or anger, or sometimes, with acceptance.

You seem to accept the cruelty of American belligerence in North Korea, and I assume you wouldn't call it 'evil'.

For similar reasons, I accept the cruelty employed by some communist regimes, but i'd stop far short of calling this 'evil'; although I don't deny the existence of evil, nor the claim that it has occasionally been evident in communist regimes, but nowhere near as much as under capitalism.

Valmont

Gatling wrote: »

Sooner or later the north will have to be dealt with either localised war or part of a larger global conflict ,

Why, if it means millions of dead people? Dealt with by whom?

Skylinehead

SeanW wrote: »

Nonsense. the US was dragged into World War II on account of the attack on Pearl Harbor, HI, by the Empire of Japan. Prior to this unprovoked, surprise attack, which was not preceded by a declaration of war, discourse in the United States was dominated by those advocating a position of neutrality in events in Europe and East Asia.

Well that's just untrue. The Americans were unequivocally on the "good" side in WW2 but don't pretend for a second that Pearl Harbour was unprovoked.

Glenster

There's no point in arguing about the justification of wars.

Is it not an indication of its pointlessness when you look back and see that the 'good guys' in every war are those people who have ultimately won it?

Bit of a coincidence?

Skylinehead

Glenster wrote: »

There's no point in arguing about the justification of wars.

Is it not an indication of its pointlessness when you look back and see that the 'good guys' in every war are those people who have ultimately won it?

Bit of a coincidence?

The victors do tend to write history alright. WW2 is pretty clear cut, but WW1 had no good guys. Despite that, a lot of people believe otherwise.

Cheerful Spring

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Wow. That's quite the clanger. North Korea was created by The United States' Joint Chiefs of Staffs in 1945, prior to the Japanese surrender. A line along the 38th parallell was chosen by Charles Bonesteel and Dean Rusk. It was accepted by the Soviets.

To claim that China... China! ... is responsible for the division of Korea is nothing short of astonishing ignorance.

Again, ridiculous. You need to read a history book. The Chinese exerted approximately equal influence in DPRK as the Soviets did, and this influence was mainly in terms of defence. China only began to have more influence on the DPRK in the 1960s, after the Sino-Soviet split.



What does evil mean, as a concept? What is the formal imperative from which we can derive an interpretation of "evil"?

Nobody defends starvation and malnutrition in Africa, but neither do they describe our yawning non-interest in it 'evil'. Nobody defends the last American war on Iraq, but they shift uncomfortably in their seats if you say "Bush was evil" (if you say 'America is evil', they laugh openly).

Americans drop bombs from drones on innocent civilians; but it isn't evil because they don't use machetes like "evil" Rwandans.

Maybe we should stick to the word 'cruel'. The Stalinist terror, the attacks on the World Trade Tower, the American belligerence in Korea -- these were all acts of cruelty. But the crucial difference between 'evil' and 'cruelty' is that cruelty, as a concept, is easier to pin-down and agree on. Cruelty can be useful or it can be inappropriate, cruelty is natural to all animals, and cruelty can deserve to be met with either pity, or anger, or sometimes, with acceptance.

You seem to accept the cruelty of American belligerence in North Korea, and I assume you wouldn't call it 'evil'.

For similar reasons, I accept the cruelty employed by some communist regimes, but i'd stop far short of calling this 'evil'; although I don't deny the existence of evil, nor the claim that it has occasionally been evident in communist regimes, but nowhere near as much as under capitalism.

You're right. Korea was united before WW2 and was divided after. North Korea is pissed with the United States because they stepped in and stopped them from uniting the country. People forget no side signed a treaty (technically) the war is unsolved.

Cheerful Spring

Skylinehead wrote: »

Well that's just untrue. The Americans were unequivocally on the "good" side in WW2 but don't pretend for a second that Pearl Harbour was unprovoked.

WW2 was the last good war, we had. Hitler was not a good person and he would have eradicated different races of human beings and people with disability would likely be slaughtered. Gay and Lesbian people forget about it. Never mind Hitler invaded countries just because he hated their ideology.

Curly Judge

Skylinehead wrote: »

The victors do tend to write history alright. WW2 is pretty clear cut, but WW1 had no good guys. Despite that, a lot of people believe otherwise.

An awful pity that General Matthew B Ridgway didn't go all the way to the Yalu River at the end of the Korean War.
The only thing that stood in his way was the cautiousness of President Truman.
The Chinese army was a busted flush at that stage.

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

American civil war was exactly this: two different entities and recognised as such

Recognised by whom, exactly? Not the government in Washington nor any other power, despite all Richmond's efforts.

Cheerful Spring

Cheerful Spring

Curly Judge wrote: »

An awful pity that General Matthew B Ridgway didn't go all the way to the Yalu River at the end of the Korean War.
The only thing that stood in his way was the cautiousness of President Truman.
The Chinese army was a busted flush at that stage.

Chinese army defeated the UN forces, what history book you read? Are you advocating the use of nuclear weapons against the Chinese?

Cheerful Spring

ilkhanid wrote: »

Recognised by whom, exactly? Not the government in Washington nor any other power, despite all Richmond's efforts.

The French and English had close ties with the Confederate States.Those nations debated even going to war with the Union, but stayed out.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The French and English had close ties with the Confederate States.Those nations debated even going to war with the Union, but stayed out.

another swing and a miss i'm afraid. The british never seriously contemplated intervening in the war and the french refused to intervene because the british wouldn't. neither country recognised the conferedate states as a nation.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Chinese army defeated the UN forces, what history book you read?

No they didn't defeat the UN they pushed them back but didn't defeat them they lost close to a million men to keep control in North Korea ,

That's not victory thats plain stupid

TeaBagMania

archer22 wrote: »

I wonder how the average American will react to Trumps trade war...ok at first they will be cheering and flag waving, but then when they head into Walmart etc and find the shelves empty, or if they can find something American made it will cost 5 or 6 times more...the cheering and flag waving will subside

Also most of the few industries they still have in America will have to shut their doors when all the cut price electronics they use won't be arriving anymore.

One thing is certain inflation will be going through the roof there and the poorest Americans will be driven to complete destitution.

Every ship from china should be turned around and sent back, as well as all Chinese owned property seized and sold.
I would gladly deal with the fallout and higher prices, ill make my own damn shower curtains
F**k Chinre garbage

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

another swing and a miss i'm afraid. The british never seriously contemplated intervening in the war and the french refused to intervene because the british wouldn't. neither country recognised the conferedate states as a nation.

This is an off topic debate. American civil war was a war, same people different ideas. Same with Korea.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

No they didn't defeat the UN they pushed them back but didn't defeat them they lost close to a million men to keep control in North Korea ,

That's not victory thats plain stupid

That's called a defeat! China did not lose 1 million men. They only launched an Invasion with 250,000 to 400, 000 men.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This is an off topic debate. American civil war was a war, same people different ideas. Same with Korea.

dont go getting stroppy because you post nonsense and other people correct it.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That's called a defeat!

No sorry

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

No sorry

Yes it is defeat. The UN forces crushed the North Korean forces after crossing the 38th parallel north line. The war was over when the got close to the Chinese border. The Chinese joined the war and engaged them in a couple of the major battles and the UN forces lost, they retreated back to South Korean Territory, dug in to protect the line. The Chinese stopped their advance.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

dont go getting stroppy because you post nonsense and other people correct it.

What nonsense? The American civil war is not real (civil war) is that what you trying to say?

Curly Judge

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Chinese army defeated the UN forces, what history book you read? Are you advocating the use of nuclear weapons against the Chinese?

North Korean forces pushed across the border and almost overran South Korea.
MacArthur pushed them back across very same border and stood looking down into Communist China.
The Chinese Army attacked across the Yalu and forced back the Americans.
Ridgway took over and forced back the Chinese across the border.
By that time the Chinese army was defeated, broken and destitute.
So much so that one of the biggest jobs the Americans had was dealing with all the prisoners and deserters.
Now, what sort of books do you read?

Cheerful Spring

Curly Judge wrote: »

North Korean forces pushed across the border and almost overran South Korea.
MacArthur pushed them back across very same border and stood looking down into Communist China.
The Chinese Army attacked across the Yalu and forced back the Americans.
Ridgway took over and forced back the Chinese across the border.
By that time the Chinese army was defeated, broken and destitute.
So much so that one of the biggest jobs the Americans had was dealing with all the prisoners and deserters.
Now, what sort of books do you read?

Not sure how the Chinese army was broken when they won the major battles? The stopped mostly likely because the feared Atomic bombs would be used to stop their advance..

Curly Judge

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Not sure how the Chinese army was broken when they won the major battles? The stopped mostly likely because the feared Atomic bombs would be used to stop their advance..

And from what history book did you get this "mostly likely" scenario?