US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

1874

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The South Korean lifestyle can end at any time. Seoul will be a warzone if NK and America go to war. It would better serve Korea interest, if the communists took over 1950, and we let them be united. I just don't see United Korea acting the same way today? China and Vietnam are communist.

Well, Im sure Uncle Ho might do some cartwheels in his grave if he could see what has become of communism and Vietnam or even "communist" China today.

I really believe that Ho Chi Minh was a good person and struggled for the betterment of the vietnamese people, I dont get that sense of Mao or the Kims, cultural revolutions, rewriting history, famines, totalitarianism.

Neither China nor Vietnam are really communist, they have centralised control but they are essentially capitalist, maybe its thankful their states regulates capitalism there.

Are you Korean or not? or Chinese maybe, at the least you sympathise with NK, and support the idea that NK could invade SK and take control. I think it would have better served Korean interest if NK was a historical footnote. Are the famines, death camps, cults of personality not enough??
It would take decades and probably billions to fix NK problems, Im not all for imposing western values or democracy, but NK could not stand on its own without Chinese support.
Cults of personality dont cut it with me, anyone/family hailed as Gods, and presides over a nation where millions live in poverty and risk of famine while supporting a massive military machine, there is something wrong.

ohnonotgmail

1874 wrote: »

Obviously the Romeos arent in a class of the US navy's attack subs, Im sure most of their subs are older designs, although they have some indigenious built/designs of mini subs.
I should say Diesel/electrics are considered quieter in terms of contemporary nuclear subs, or thats what Ive always read. Id still be surprised if any diesel electric subs are ever completely surfaced as snorkels for running diesel engines and presumably exchanging air for the crew were in use during WW2, If they operate a large number of subs and build their own designs are attempting to fit SLBM's Im sure they can fit a snorkel.
It seems even NK doesnt have that many Romeos and their subs seem to mainly be for coastal waters, not necessarily a place they might be likely to be engaged by Nuclear attack subs, but maybe anti submarine surface ships and aircraft, they did manage to sink a SK ship undetected.
I cant claim to have any experience of detecting submarines but it seems it could be more difficult to do in coastal areas in shallower waters, where noise may be different than in deeper waters, maybe whatever noise is created is masked by that but I think most of their subs are newer than romeos.

they're not. in any other country they would be scrap.

ilkhanid

archer22 wrote: »

.The Chinese that swarmed across the Yalu river were volunteers and they were only light infantry, but fearsome fighters who sent the American army on the longest retreat in their history.

No, they were not volunteers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

America has joined wars, organised and supported coups of democratic elected leaders all across the world since 1945. Soviet for most part annexed nations near their borders and fought other countries at a time when every nation on earth was upset with someone about something.

Conquering countries near to you is less evil than conquering countries farther away? I guess old Adolf-Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, France-wasn't that bad so.

1874 wrote: »

I dont agree, I see NK in a completely different light than Vietnam,
The US worked with/trained Vietnamese guerillas in WW2.

There really was no Dear leader of the like of NK, Ho chi Minh was different, revered, but so were others, there has been no family line of succession, none of the ridiculousness of explaining real circumstances in the world.
NK has been under an oppressive stalinist regime, the like of which Vietnam has not experienced.

That's an elaborate explanation. I'd be more concise. Every country is different, has a different dynamic, different traditions. There is simply no reason one country's history should parallel anothers. Look at Eastern/central Europe in the Soviet period. Romania and Poland were not too dissimilar, yet one had one of the mildest Communist regimes, one that quickly adjusted to post-communist rule. The other had a demented, brutal tyrant and has had problems adjusting to democracy. The Czech Republic had the most advanced democratic system before the war, yet it took to Communism with alacrity. Hungary was authoritarian before the war, yet it evolved a far more relaxed version of Communism than Czechoslovakia did.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The South Korean lifestyle can end at any time. Seoul will be a warzone if NK and America go to war. It would better serve Korea interest, if the communists took over 1950, and we let them be united. I just don't see United Korea acting the same way today? China and Vietnam are communist.

Really? Do you think the South Koreans would agree with you, knowing what they do about the North? As for China, The Communist takeover was a catastrophe. The Country ended under the despotic rule of one of the worst tyrants in human history. It has taken China 40 years to recover from the destruction he wrecked on the country.A comparison between Taiwan and the mainland is enlightening.

Zebra3

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Eh the difference is NK has nuclear weapons and ICBM's. They also run propaganda on state TV calling for the destruction of the US. Nobody needs to make any lies up about NK, they are a very real threat. My personal opinion is that the US over the next 6-12 months will racket up the pressure on China to make a move and if that fails they will take Kim and the leadership out with a surgical strike and see where the cards fall.

There have been plenty of calls in the US to attack Iran. Do you support an Iranian attack on the US then due to its threats which are illegal under international law?

Can you explain to me how this "surgical strike" of yours would work? I've heard this term of propaganda a lot, like "collateral damage", but I'm not sure how it works.

The term surgical is usually employed to describe a process that improves people's health, yet you're using it to promote massacring people.

Or do you just repeat stuff that you hear off the telly that you think makes you sound like a big shot?

BillyBobBS

Zebra3 wrote: »

There have been plenty of calls in the US to attack Iran. Do you support an Iranian attack on the US then due to its threats which are illegal under international law?

Can you explain to me how this "surgical strike" of yours would work? I've heard this term of propaganda a lot, like "collateral damage", but I'm not sure how it works.

The term surgical is usually employed to describe a process that improves people's health, yet you're using it to promote massacring people.

Or do you just repeat stuff that you hear off the telly that you think makes you sound like a big shot?

Was going to respond and then you threw in the term "big shot".

Must try harder.

BillyBobBS

North Korea strikes me as the kind of place that paints of picture of what China must have been like in its early days of revolution – ox and cart farming, collectives and a desperate thirst for industrialism. While places of communist past have or are slowly moving on, becoming ‘socialist’ and slightly more progressive, North Korea lags behind by still keeping an ultimate grip on its people, yet struggling with the realisation that it needs to develop, trade and open up with the rest of the world in order to sustain itself in the modern age.

A country still at war, striking fear into the heart of its people is the only way it maintains control. This is something our generation in particular doesn’t understand. Whilst we would all love to see a united Korea, it wouldn’t be that easy. Think of the differences between East and West Berliners when the wall came down. Two ideologies and different ways of life colliding; two economic and education systems trying to integrate. A surgical strike i wouldn't imagine would be an easy process of bringing immediate peace, but hopefully by taking out the top dogs it can herald a new dawn for the people of NK.

Curly Judge

Would Cheerful spring care to tell us what Soviet Russia did to liberate Korea from the Japanese during the second world war?
Who does s/he think liberated Korea in WWII?

Cheerful Spring

1874 wrote: »

Well, Im sure Uncle Ho might do some cartwheels in his grave if he could see what has become of communism and Vietnam or even "communist" China today.

I really believe that Ho Chi Minh was a good person and struggled for the betterment of the vietnamese people, I dont get that sense of Mao or the Kims, cultural revolutions, rewriting history, famines, totalitarianism.

Neither China nor Vietnam are really communist, they have centralised control but they are essentially capitalist, maybe its thankful their states regulates capitalism there.

Are you Korean or not? or Chinese maybe, at the least you sympathise with NK, and support the idea that NK could invade SK and take control. I think it would have better served Korean interest if NK was a historical footnote. Are the famines, death camps, cults of personality not enough??
It would take decades and probably billions to fix NK problems, Im not all for imposing western values or democracy, but NK could not stand on its own without Chinese support.
Cults of personality dont cut it with me, anyone/family hailed as Gods, and presides over a nation where millions live in poverty and risk of famine while supporting a massive military machine, there is something wrong.

You ignoring the reasons for why North Korea isolated itself from the world. Since the war ended there has been a standoff between them and America. Sanctions the lack of money, had made them poorer. Economic blockade against a country, only hurts the poor. Vietnam was another Asian communist country that America tried to takeover and dominate, but lost.

archer22

Curly Judge wrote: »

Would Cheerful spring care to tell us what Soviet Russia did to liberate Korea from the Japanese during the second world war?
Who does s/he think liberated Korea in WWII?

Operation August Storm

fxotoole

Zebra3 wrote: »

There have been plenty of calls in the US to attack Iran. Do you support an Iranian attack on the US then due to its threats which are illegal under international law?

Can you explain to me how this "surgical strike" of yours would work? I've heard this term of propaganda a lot, like "collateral damage", but I'm not sure how it works.

The term surgical is usually employed to describe a process that improves people's health, yet you're using it to promote massacring people.

Or do you just repeat stuff that you hear off the telly that you think makes you sound like a big shot?

The US already have attacked Iran. They unleashed the Stuxnet malware on the centrifuges they were using to process nuclear materials. It is said that this attack put Iran's nuclear program back by 5 years. This was preferable to directly attacking Iran by putting boots on the ground, or launching air strikes. It is a tactic that Trump should take up with North Korea if he had any sense.

A surgical strike is a term for a precision attack that minimises casualties, much in the same way that a surgeon minimises damage in performing a procedure that requires a lot of skill.

Cheerful Spring

ilkhanid wrote: »

No, they were not volunteers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army


Conquering countries near to you is less evil than conquering countries farther away? I guess old Adolf-Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, France-wasn't that bad so.


Really? Do you think the South Koreans would agree with you, knowing what they do about the North? As for China, The Communist takeover was a catastrophe. The Country ended under the despotic rule of one of the worst tyrants in human history. It has taken China 40 years to recover from the destruction he wrecked on the country.A comparison between Taiwan and the mainland is enlightening.

We are comparing the foreign policy of the Soviet Union now Russia to America. If you look at the history of both countries. America has got itself involved in conflicts, in the Middle east, Asia, Africa, South America. Russia annexing countries during WW2 and invading Afghanistan compared to what America has done worldwide, mediocre.

Asking a 1950 South Korean and 2017 South Korean what he/her feelings are would be a lot different. A united Korea in 1950 could be a prosperous country today if all we know and open for business to everyone.

Cheerful Spring

archer22 wrote: »

Operation August Storm

He forget how Korea got divided !

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We are comparing the foreign policy of the Soviet Union now Russia to America. If you look at the history of both countries. America has got itself involved in conflicts, in the Middle east, Asia, Africa, South America. Russia annexing countries during WW2 and invading Afghanistan compared to what America has done worldwide, mediocre.

Asking a 1950 South Korean and 2017 South Korean what he/her feelings are would be a lot different. A united Korea in 1950 could be a prosperous country today if all we know and open for business to everyone.

you think a 1950 south korean would be happy to be ruled by a dictator? you do realise that south koreans fought the north so they could be free? Not exactly the actions of people keen to be ruled by the Kims.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you think a 1950 south korean would be happy to be ruled by a dictator? you do realise that south koreans fought the north so they could be free? Not exactly the actions of people keen to be ruled by the Kims.

Society can change, if not backed into a corner and isolated. The South Korean regime was not popular in 1950. It's a myth North Korea was the same as is today back then

Cheerful Spring

fxotoole wrote: »

The US already have attacked Iran. They unleashed the Stuxnet malware on the centrifuges they were using to process nuclear materials. It is said that this attack put Iran's nuclear program back by 5 years. This was preferable to directly attacking Iran by putting boots on the ground, or launching air strikes. It is a tactic that Trump should take up with North Korea if he had any sense.

A surgical strike is a term for a precision attack that minimises casualties, much in the same way that a surgeon minimises damage in performing a procedure that requires a lot of skill.

He's already got enough material to make 20 or 30 Nuclear weapons. All you hitting there is the nuclear power plants. You need an airstrike to take out the nuclear bomb storage areas.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Society can change, if not backed into a corner and isolated. The South Korean regime was not popular in 1950.

and yes south koreans were willing to fight and die for it. how very odd.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It's a myth North Korea was the same as is today back then

so you are saying that it wasnt ruled by an authoritarian dictator? thats an interesting opinion i grant you.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and yes south koreans were willing to fight and die for it. how very odd.




so you are saying that it wasnt ruled by an authoritarian dictator? thats an interesting opinion i grant you.

North Koreans took Seoul in 1 day. The South Korean army fled because they had low morale and did not want to fight for it. South Korea was a puppet state, the people at the time i say would not care if the communists took over.

No what i am saying is, if the country was united. Who knows if the Kim dynasty would have lasted. Kim dynasty isolated the country after the war.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

North Koreans took Seoul in 1 day. The South Korean army fled because they had low morale and did not want to fight for it. South Korea was a puppet state, the people at the time i say would not care if the communists took over.

well Seoul is basically right on the border so the north didnt have far to go considering they were massed on the border waiting to invade. But according to you the north was doing the people of the south a favour. Again, a very interesting opinion.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

North Koreans took Seoul in 1 day. The South Korean army fled because they had low morale and did not want to fight for it. South Korea was a puppet state,

So a suprise invasion ,

But wait this was the army preparing to attack north Korea according to alternative facts

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You ignoring the reasons for why North Korea isolated itself from the world. Since the war ended there has been a standoff between them and America. Sanctions the lack of money, had made them poorer. Economic blockade against a country, only hurts the poor. Vietnam was another Asian communist country that America tried to takeover and dominate, but lost.

That's a cop-out. North Korea had sufficient resources to feed it's people, but the regime insisted on pouring resources (25% of all available) into the armed forces at the expense of the population and it insisted on totalitarian methods of control and distribution.
Even Cuba, a country far more vulnerable to American attack, and without the presence of an adjacent protector never instituted such extraordinary a measure of control of its people.

"North Korea's economy has been unique in its elimination of markets. By the 1960s, market elements had been suppressed almost completely. Almost all items, from food to clothes, have traditionally been handed out through a public distribution system, with money only having a symbolic meaning. Ratios of food depend on hierarchy in the system, wherein the positions seem to be semi-hereditary. Until the late 1980s, peasants were not allowed to cultivate private garden plots."

As others have said, the state of continuous preparation for war is not to protect the country against the South (there has never been any indication that South Korea contemplated a return to war or had the resources for it);the USA-which couldn't consider a war against the South without both South Korean and Japanese approval-or Japan, but to protect the Kim regime.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We are comparing the foreign policy of the Soviet Union now Russia to America. If you look at the history of both countries. America has got itself involved in conflicts, in the Middle east, Asia, Africa, South America. Russia annexing countries during WW2 and invading Afghanistan compared to what America has done worldwide, mediocre.

Ungrammatical, illogical meaningless waffle.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Asking a 1950 South Korean and 2017 South Korean what he/her feelings are would be a lot different. A united Korea in 1950 could be a prosperous country today if all we know and open for business to everyone.

Have you forgotten. South Korea is a prosperous country now. The notion that it would be better under the Kims is bizarre. The South Korean regime got half of Korea and turned into a powerhouse of industry, an astonishing success story. The Kims got half the country and turned it into a hellhole that makes Nazi Germany and Stalin's USSR look good.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Big man. I suppose grammar-fascism is preferable to the capitalist totalitarianism that for a long time characterised South Korea, which the DPRK has stringently opposed.

Well, we can be sure that it's not the totalitarianism that the Kims opposed, since their country keeps a degree of control over it's citizenry that makes Moscow in 1953 look like The East Village in 1978.
I also notice "for a long time". So South Korea improved, shrugged off dictatorship while North Korea became a basket-case.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

So a suprise invasion ,

But wait this was the army preparing to attack north Korea according to alternative facts

Historians again disagree on how it started. UN without investigation blamed the North. Documentation and soldier testimony claim is was the South who started it and they got forced back by a counterattack. And we can't ignore most of South Korea equipment and supplies got left behind at the 38th parallel line! If it was truly a surprise attack why did they have the bulk of their military hardware situated near the border? Where they planning an invasion of the North?

Cheerful Spring

ilkhanid wrote: »

That's a cop-out. North Korea had sufficient resources to feed it's people, but the regime insisted on pouring resources (25% of all available) into the armed forces at the expense of the population and it insisted on totalitarian methods of control and distribution.
Even Cuba, a country far more vulnerable to American attack, and without the presence of an adjacent protector never instituted such extraordinary a measure of control of its people.

"North Korea's economy has been unique in its elimination of markets. By the 1960s, market elements had been suppressed almost completely. Almost all items, from food to clothes, have traditionally been handed out through a public distribution system, with money only having a symbolic meaning. Ratios of food depend on hierarchy in the system, wherein the positions seem to be semi-hereditary. Until the late 1980s, peasants were not allowed to cultivate private garden plots."

As others have said, the state of continuous preparation for war is not to protect the country against the South (there has never been any indication that South Korea contemplated a return to war or had the resources for it);the USA-which couldn't consider a war against the South without both South Korean and Japanese approval-or Japan, but to protect the Kim regime.

Kim is struggling to feed he's soldiers that should tell you something. Kim is the only guy who looks overweight in that country and he only does it to resemble he's grandfather. He's not deliberately starving he's people. A famine in the 90's can not be overlooked either. 90 per cent of their trade is coming from one country China.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Historians again disagree on how it started. UN without investigation blamed the North. Documentation and soldier testimony claim is was the South who started it and they got forced back by a counterattack. And we can't ignore most of South Korea equipment and supplies got left behind at the 38th parallel line! If it was truly a surprise attack why did they have the bulk of their military hardware situated near the border? Where they planning an invasion of the North?

or perhaps, i dont know, waiting for the invasion that they knew was coming?

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Kim is struggling to feed he's soldiers that should tell you something. Kim is the only guy who looks overweight in that country and he only does it to resemble he's grandfather. He's not deliberately starving he's people. A famine in the 90's can not be overlooked either. 90 per cent of their trade is coming from one country China.

that is even more incompetent than his father and grandfather?

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that is even more incompetent than his father and grandfather?

I guess when the Irish died during the famine, it was not the English fault at all. We just blame the Irish for being stupid and lazy and not listening and doing what their English masters told them.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

or perhaps, i dont know, waiting for the invasion that they knew was coming?

It was a surprise attack i thought?

Cheerful Spring

ilkhanid wrote: »

As others have said, the state of continuous preparation for war is not to protect the country against the South (there has never been any indication that South Korea contemplated a return to war or had the resources for it);the USA-which couldn't consider a war against the South without both South Korean and Japanese approval-or Japan, but to protect the Kim regime.

Have you forgotten. South Korea is a prosperous country now. The notion that it would be better under the Kims is bizarre. The South Korean regime got half of Korea and turned into a powerhouse of industry, an astonishing success story. The Kims got half the country and turned it into a hellhole that makes Nazi Germany anf Stalin's USSR look good.

.

It don't matter if SK prosperous. The country is divided and at any time this country could be a nuclear wasteland. That's the legacy we truly left with.

In my opinion a United Korea formed 1950's could be a different state today, potentially be ruled differently and be an open society just like Vietnam is today. The division is the reason NK is the only Stalinist like regime left today.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It was a surprise attack i thought?

the two are not mutually exclusive. you can know an invasion is coming just not exactly when.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I guess when the Irish died during the famine, it was not the English fault at all. We just blame the Irish for being stupid and lazy and not listening and doing what their English masters told them.

you're talking nonsense again. who do the Kims have to blame but themselves?

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It don't matter if SK prosperous. The country is divided and at any time this country could be a nuclear wasteland. That's the legacy we truly left with.

In my opinion a United Korea formed 1950's could be a different state today, potentially be ruled differently and be an open society just like Vietnam is today. The division is the reason NK is the only Stalinist like regime left today.

the reason that NK has the regime it does is because of the Kims. it is not the fault of anybody else.