US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

Ipso

The Soviets, great bunch of lads.

InTheTrees

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Soviet Union. If you can provide proof of soviet dead, POW prisoners, name battles where the Soviet soldiers fought, i listen. A few pilots looking for adventure and glory, is not enough evidence.

Mig Alley was the name given to the air war that was the first jet war. Primarily between the Soviet mig15 and the American F86.

Many decorated soviet aces fought in it. The soviet air wing was attached to the north Korean forces.

I'm on my phone right now but ill post excerpts from the Wikipedia page later.

Curly Judge

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

China and Soviet Union never tried to ruin the South Korean economy.

Naw....just invade and overrun it twice.
Does wonders for a bit of business!

Elmer Blooker

I posted this link months ago in this thread (#767, p52) and might as well post it again.
This childish act of using a North Korean flag as target practice close to the 38th parallel border is nothing more than blatant provocation and aggression. Even the "Provocation?" NBC headline suggests that it's uncalled for and also says in the article that is an "unusual" act. It clearly was an attempt to heighten tensions in the region. I doubt very much if the decision to use the North Korean flag as target practice was made in Seoul.

Live-fire drills by the allies are fairly routine, but using the North’s national flag as part of target practice is unusual — and will be seen as a provocation by Pyongyang,

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/22/12354912-provocation-north-korean-flag-used-in-us-south-korea-war-games?lite

The Soviets, great bunch of lads.

Soviets?? Where? Under the bed?

InTheTrees

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

This childish act of using a North Korean flag as target practice close to the 38th parallel border is nothing more than blatant provocation and aggression.

North Korea lives to be provoked. Everything provokes them. South Korean tv is a provocation. Kpop dives them nuts. Mention of the USA sends them into a fit.

archer22

Curly Judge wrote: »

Ah yes...... late 1945 when the US had done all the heavy lifting and Japan was on the point of surrendering.
A bit like the 10 denari guy in the Bible.
Turns up late for work and demands a full days wages.

In August 1945 the Americans were still in Okinawa shaking in their boots looking across at Japan, and sweating imagining that they might lose up a million troops trying to take it.

Meanwhile the Soviets in just 4 weeks had smashed Japanese armies over a million strong and were racing down the Japanese northern islands...many believe this Soviet offensive is the real reason Japan surrendered.

The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not any big deal to the Japanese...they already had something like 36 other major cities destroyed by conventional bombing.But they knew they would get a far worse deal from the Russians and they knew the Emperor would not be allowed to stay.

At the end of World war 2 the Soviet Red Army was the most powerful land army on earth...when it started to roll there was nothing could stop it...they had shown that already in Europe.

Curly Judge

archer22 wrote: »

In August 1945 the Americans were still in Okinawa shaking in their boots looking across at Japan, and sweating imagining that they might lose up a million troops trying to take it.

Meanwhile the Soviets in just 4 weeks had smashed Japanese armies over a million strong and were racing down the Japanese northern islands...many believe this Soviet offensive is the real reason Japan surrendered.

The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not any big deal to the Japanese...they already had something like 36 other major cities destroyed by conventional bombing.But they knew they would get a far worse deal from the Russians and they knew the Emperor would not be allowed to stay.

At the end of World war 2 the Soviet Red Army was the most powerful land army on earth...when it started to roll there was nothing could stop it...they had shown that already in Europe.

Post of the week!

InTheTrees

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The Soviets did not join the war. You need to stop googling websites to support this ridiculous belief.

It amazes me how easy it still is to fool people. You think people would wake up after that Iraq and WMD fakery of 2003. I guess this kind of thing does not bother you?

Its equally amazing that you dont just do some basic research.

Here's the wiki on the first major air battle of the jet age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG_Alley

"While the Soviet Union never officially entered the war, on 1 November 1950, the 64th Fighter Aviation Corps (64 IAK) of the Soviet Air Forces was attached to the PLAAF, under the 1st United Air Army."

"The top aces were Russian. Nikolay Sutyagin claimed 21 kills, including nine F-86s, one F-84 and one Gloster Meteor in less than seven months. His first kill was the F-86A of Robert H. Laier on 19 June 1951 (listed by the Americans as missing in action), and his last was on 11 January 1952, when he shot down and killed Thiel M. Reeves, who was flying an F-86E (Reeves is also listed as MIA). Other famous Soviet aces include Yevgeni G. Pepelyayev, who was credited with 19 kills, and Lev Kirilovich Shchukin, who was credited with 17 kills, despite being shot down twice himself."

Here's a russian site listing Soviet Contributions to the Korean war:

http://www.skywar.ru/korwald.html

InTheTrees

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The Pacific ocean space is wide and huge. If you think they can cover every square inch of it you're wrong.

Yes, the pacific is very big isnt it? I dont know whether it covers "every inch" but here's some information on the sound surveillance system or SOSUS. Its a chain of underwater listening posts located around the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS

Elmer Blooker

InTheTrees wrote: »

North Korea lives to be provoked. Everything provokes them. South Korean tv is a provocation. Kpop dives them nuts. Mention of the USA sends them into a fit.

ANY country on the planet would see their flag being used as target practice as a provocation. If the stars and stripes was used as target practice by any country there would be an emergency UN Security Council meeting to avoid WW3!
Even the NBC report thought it was a provocation.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

country on the planet would see their flag being used as target practice as a provocation.

As opposed to having 15,000 artillery pieces targeted at another countries capital city wonder if that's considered provocation ,
Or annexation of a sovereign state

InTheTrees

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

ANY country on the planet would see their flag being used as target practice as a provocation. If the stars and stripes was used as target practice by any country there would be an emergency UN Security Council meeting to avoid WW3!
Even the NBC report thought it was a provocation.

I agree its a provocation. No doubt.

Curly Judge

The main thing to realize is that both Mao and Stalin used Korea as an (initially) proxy war for two very different but related reasons.
Stalin needed to tie up as many American troops as possible to make his ambitions in Europe more realizable.
Mao wanted to make China a world power in military terms and needed Stalin's military and industrial experience to do so.
China had something Stalin wasn't prepared or perhaps wasn't able to bring to the table, ie a million men and more if needed.
When the war went badly wrong for the Communists, Kim Il -sung started to panic and feared his country would be destroyed beyond recovery.
"Pretty soon there will be nothing left to bomb", was one American state officials observation on the carnage.
As far as Stalin was concerned it was going swimmingly. America was suffering at home and abroad. Moa didn't mind losing men, (he had already caused the deaths of millions of his own men and went on to cause the deaths of millions more) and anyway Stalin was foot dragging on his transfer of military technology and blueprints to China.
Mao knew that if he stopped the war he could say goodbye to ever getting them and so he continued long after it had any military possibilities.
North and South Korea ( and it's people) were incidental to the ambitions of these two monsters.

Gatling

So it seem MadDog Mattis still believes diplomatic solutions are still on the table backed up with military options if needed

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

As opposed to having 15,000 artillery pieces targeted at another countries capital city wonder if that's considered provocation ,

Perhaps someone could explain to me how South Korea/USA with a trillion dollar military budget could possibly be threatened by an impoverished country? Any takers?

Curly Judge

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

ANY country on the planet would see their flag being used as target practice as a provocation. If the stars and stripes was used as target practice by any country there would be an emergency UN Security Council meeting to avoid WW3!
Even the NBC report thought it was a provocation.

American flags and effigies are burned in the streets of many cities, on many occasions, every year.
They have long since learned to live with it.

Ipso

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Perhaps someone could explain to me how South Korea/USA with a trillion dollar military budget could possibly be threatened by an impoverished country? Any takers?

NK has missiles (although some seem to be little more than glorified fire works).
Missiles cause damages to cities and kill people.
Seoul is a city close to NK.
NK's leaders are a wee bit volatile.
NK launches missile at Seoul. People die.

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

They have tried to open up the economy, but incidents and tensions always get in the way. .

Exactly, The Kims don't see opening up the economy as a positive good in itself, they see it as another bargaining chip, another ploy in the game with South Korea. What is granted can always be snatched back if curcumstancres dictate. Chinese diplomats have said that they have, again and again and again,urged the Northern regime to loosen up the economy, tried to show them the economic and diplomatic benefits that can follow if they follow the Chinese model. For the most part....in vain.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Perhaps someone could explain to me how South Korea could possibly be threatened by an impoverished country? Any takers?

15,000 artillery please targeted at Seoul home to 10 million south Koreans ,

Not really sure why that wouldn't be threatening ,

It's like when people say Nato has completely surrounded russia ,but facts say that Nato countries only share a border with 1/16th of russia

Elmer Blooker

Ipso wrote: »

NK has missiles (although some seem to be little more than glorified fire works).
Missiles cause damages to cities and kill people.
Seoul is a city close to NK.
NK's leaders are a wee bit volatile.
NK launches missile at Seoul. People die.

Well ... we seem to agree that the North Korean "threat" is greatly exaggerated.

ilkhanid

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Well ... we seem to agree that the North Korean "threat" is greatly exaggerated.

There are probably enough artillery in those mountains to kill-at the very least -tens of thousands of the citizens of Seoul, maybe hundreds of thousands. A million man army can do a lot of damage before it's destroyed, including causing massive damage to the economic powerhouse of South Korea. There's also the possibility the North might have chemical or biological weapons.That's plenty of reason to be nervous.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

just a slight correction but Kim Il-sung became prime minister of NK in 1948.

I stand corrected.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

ANY country on the planet would see their flag being used as target practice as a provocation. If the stars and stripes was used as target practice by any country there would be an emergency UN Security Council meeting to avoid WW3!
Even the NBC report thought it was a provocation.

You have a rather grotesque hierarchy of what constitutes "offense". Destroying a flag is a dreadful provocation, but hacking two men to pieces with axes doesn't even warrant a mention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incidenthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident
Anyway, isn't that the very thing we smile at-the American obsession with their flag, the court cases about whether "desecrating" it constitutes Free Speech (it does...try that in North Korea, eh?). In your case, if some Republican blew a gasket over a flag burning it would be jeering and sneering "Go, 'Murica, ha ha ha" etc etc
I'm sure you'd love Pakistan, where they lynch people over tearing a page of a Koran.

Gatling wrote: »

It's like when people say Nato has completely surrounded russia ,but facts say that Nato countries only share a border with 1/16th of russia

That's why the USSR was so nasty, it was the fault of the West for surrounding it. That was the one of the excuses offered back in the day. It excused everything from the collectivisation famine in the Ukraine to the Moscow Trials to the crushing of the Prague Spring.

jackboy

ilkhanid wrote: »

There are probably enough artillery in those mountains to kill-at the very least -tens of thousands of the citizens of Seoul, maybe hundreds of thousands. A million man army can do a lot of damage before it's destroyed, including causing massive damage to the economic powerhouse of South Korea. That#s plenty of reason to be nervous.

I stand corrected.

The million man army is a joke. They would quickly fold.

Irish Praetorian

archer22 wrote: »

In August 1945 the Americans were still in Okinawa shaking in their boots looking across at Japan, and sweating imagining that they might lose up a million troops trying to take it.

Meanwhile the Soviets in just 4 weeks had smashed Japanese armies over a million strong and were racing down the Japanese northern islands...many believe this Soviet offensive is the real reason Japan surrendered.

The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not any big deal to the Japanese...they already had something like 36 other major cities destroyed by conventional bombing.But they knew they would get a far worse deal from the Russians and they knew the Emperor would not be allowed to stay.

At the end of World war 2 the Soviet Red Army was the most powerful land army on earth...when it started to roll there was nothing could stop it...they had shown that already in Europe.

The Chinese might have something to say about other nations doing the 'heavy lifting' - since 1937 China had been engaged in a life or death struggle with Japan, fought with a lot of the brutality that would come to characterise the Eastern Front in Europe.

Just a pet peeve, always felt China didn't get enough credit for its service in WW2 - quite a few reasons for that some of them good, but still.

Anyway, we should let people get back to 'US Evil Devil Government that Eats Babies - Anything with 'Soviet' or 'Peoples' in its same just misunderstood.

archer22

North Korea has every right to design and test military hardware the same as every other nation.

Israel (one of the most aggressive genocidal nations on earth) recently tested missiles but that barely got a mention, they also possess illegal nuclear weapons...but hey thats ok cos they own every clown in the government of America.

No its only the little nations that stand up to the American monstrosity that need to be sanctioned or attacked if they dare launch a test missile.

America should tread carefully in Korea or it could up with them leaving Seoul in the same embarrassing way that they left Saigon.

BillyBobBS

archer22 wrote: »

North Korea has every right to design and test military hardware the same as every other nation.

Israel (one of the most aggressive genocidal nations on earth) recently tested missiles but that barely got a mention, they also possess illegal nuclear weapons...but hey thats ok cos they own every clown in the government of America.

No its only the little nations that stand up to the American monstrosity that need to be sanctioned or attacked if they dare launch a test missile.

America should tread carefully in Korea or it could up with them leaving Seoul in the same embarrassing way that they left Saigon.

You'd like that wouldn't you.

InTheTrees

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Well ... we seem to agree that the North Korean "threat" is greatly exaggerated.

No we haven't.

Forget missiles. Seoul is within artillery range of north Korea. North Korean soldiers could be in the city within hours.

Gatling

archer22 wrote: »

America should tread carefully in Korea or it could up with them leaving Seoul in the same embarrassing way that they left Saigon.

Lol a combined North Korean, Chinese , russia military force couldn't get it done,

What possibly makes you think lil kim could do it on his own

archer22

Gatling wrote: »

Lol a combined North Korean, Chinese , russia military force couldn't get it done,

What possibly makes you think lil kim could do it on his own

America is nowhere near as tough as their groupies think they are.
They can't even defeat a rag tag light militia in Afghanistan.
They ran out of Somalia.
And a single Hezbollah attack in Beirut left hundreds of them dead and the rest running for their lives back home.

Gatling

archer22 wrote: »

America is nowhere near as tough as their groupies think they are.
They can't even defeat a rag tag light militia in Afghanistan.

Remind me how russia got on in Afghanistan and how bad did they look skulking back to Moscow ,

They lost more aircraft to a rag tag militia as they did in Korea .
450 aircraft wasn't it and 15,000 men lost

InTheTrees

archer22 wrote: »

America is nowhere near as tough as their groupies think they are.

I think the South Koreans are pretty passionate about not being invaded too.

Its not all about america.