US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

Nettle Soup

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Which part?

All of it but especially this line: "It's only a matter of when not if they go to war." It's ridiculous and immature.

Cheerful Spring

Nettle Soup wrote: »

All of it but especially this line: "It's only a matter of when not if they go to war." It's ridiculous and immature.

I guess we should ignore America has fought war after war since 1945? I guess war is something we don't do often? We don't fight wars for land or resource? We don't fight wars to protect borders? It be nice to live in this fairy tale world you think we live in but the reality is very different.

Nettle Soup

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I guess we should ignore America has fought war after war since 1945? I guess war is something we don't do often? We don't fight wars for land or resource? We don't fight wars to protect borders? It be nice to live in this fairy tale world you think we live in but the reality is very different.

Ah stop. You said it's only a matter of time before USA and China go to war. I am saying that is utter nonsense. It will not happen especially not over an idiot like Kim. Name the last time the USA went to war with another superpower? I think you need to stop watching those Vietnam movies.

Tell me, when will China and USA be at war? Within 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 50 years?

Cheerful Spring

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Ah stop. You said it's only a matter of time before USA and China go to war. I am saying that is utter nonsense. It will not happen especially not over an idiot like Kim. Name the last time the USA went to war with another superpower? I think you need to stop watching those Vietnam movies.

Tell me, when will China and USA be at war? Within 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 50 years?

And yet the Chinese Media that is state owned, has said China should help and stop America, if Trump attack North Korea preemptively?

Nettle Soup

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

And yet the Chinese Media that is state owned, has said China should help and stop America, if Trump attack North Korea preemptively?

Media. should. No mention of war. Not going to happen. War of words.

Now please answer my question. Tell me, when will China and USA be at war? Within 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 50 years?

Cheerful Spring

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Media. should. No mention of war. Not going to happen. War of words.

Now please answer my question. Tell me, when will China and USA be at war? Within 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 50 years?

Media that is state owned, meaning lot of this is the feeling of the Chinese state. And yes you keep ignoring they said China should join NK if America attacks North Korea first!

China vs USA be at war. If not North Korea trouble starts it?

About 1 to 3 years at most, i believe China will annoy America enough they start threatening them or China will do something that will push them closer to war.

XsApollo

The notion that the US will leave the area if North Korea collapses isn't going to happen in my view.
What will happen IMO is that they will turn their attention to China.
We will see a ramp in media output and the threats that China pose to the free Asian countries that surround them.
We will see more and more of what's happening in the south china sea and
other stuff in the region.
Testing of missiles and the usual scaremongering.
They will then proceed to try and check mate china with missile shields and the like in the former North Korea , like they have been trying to do to Russia since the collapse of the USSR.

North Korea is to China what Ukraine is to Russia. It's a buffer against the United States.
Russia didn't let it happen in Ukraine and China won't allow it in Noth Korea unless Kim brings it on himself by a malfunctioning missile or whatever striking another country.

World politics is like a chess game to the US and they are trying to position the pieces all over the world.
They under the guise of trying to put friendly governments in power who then let them station and put miltitary equipment in their countries, there is then nothing really China or Russia can do, they can't stop them when that happens bar invading then they will have invaded a sovergien country and be seen as aggressors and that opens up world war 3.

They will try stop it before it happens as with Ukraine and proabably North Korea.

archer22

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Media. should. No mention of war. Not going to happen. War of words.

Now please answer my question. Tell me, when will China and USA be at war? Within 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 50 years?

I don't think China is devoting huge resources to developing anti ship missiles so they can have a fun day shooting tin cans in the South China Sea

If you watch their military developments and training you will see they expect war with the US at some stage.

Likewise on the US side...just look at the ring of military bases they are trying to put around China and the provocations in the SCS.

Also what do you think "Pivot to Asia" actually means.

So as both expect a war at some stage...I think its quite reasonable for observers to expect the same

Nettle Soup

archer22 wrote: »

I don't think China is devoting huge resources to developing anti ship missiles so they can have a fun day shooting tin cans in the South China Sea

If you watch their military developments and training you will see they expect war with the US at some stage.

Likewise on the US side...just look at the ring of military bases they are trying to put around China and the provocations in the SCS.

Also what do you think "Pivot to Asia" actually means.

So as both expect a war at some stage...I think its quite reasonable for observers to expect the same

Ok, lets imagine that everybody loses the head and China and USA go to all out war - I am still 100% positive this will never happen despite all the high level "facts" you have - but for sake of argument let's play this out.
So China and USA decide it would be prudent to enter into a mutually destructive war for whatever reason (not to save Kim/NK either!)...so many questions;
Cui bono? When do the nukes start flying? Are there land invasions? Who wins this conflict? Who finances the war considering the massive US debt? Does China invade and take over the USA or vice versa? What's the end game?
Please use your strategic nous to play this superpower war out for me...

somefeen

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I did not forget. An irrelevant point.



I am saying repeatedly that nothing will happen. It's a storm in a teacup. China laugh at Kim. He is a figure of ridicule and Trump is not far behind. Where and how will China be humiliated??? The only fear China have is that NK gets destabilised and millions of NZ citizens flee over the border into China. Unlikely but they will handle it.

Them feckin' Kiwis. Mad for the communism so they are.

Emperor Qianlong

Why has NK suddenly become such an issue. They have been doing the same **** for years there
Anything to do with Trumps domestic issues in the US maybe ?

archer22

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Ok, lets imagine that everybody loses the head and China and USA go to all out war - I am still 100% positive this will never happen despite all the high level "facts" you have - but for sake of argument let's play this out.
So China and USA decide it would be prudent to enter into a mutually destructive war for whatever reason (not to save Kim/NK either!)...so many questions;
Cui bono? When do the nukes start flying? Are there land invasions? Who wins this conflict? Who finances the war considering the massive US debt? Does China invade and take over the USA or vice versa? What's the end game?
Please use your strategic nous to play this superpower war out for me...

Ask the Neo-cons in America what their new world vision for the American century is.
What their goals everywhere are...why did they destroy the stability of the middle east?
And ask yourself are they going to be happy with playing second fiddle to an Asian superpower.

At the end of the day only they know the answers to your questions...nobody here can read their minds or are privy to their inner chambers.
All we can see is what is currently de facto on the ground

Atlantic Dawn

Emperor Qianlong wrote: »

Why has NK suddenly become such an issue. They have been doing the same **** for years there
Anything to do with Trumps domestic issues in the US maybe ?

Kim threatened to attack Guam with missiles. I don't think there has been direct threats before with specific targets mentioned. Personally I think Kim is like some kid who's dad gave him a fireworks set and he's desperate to show them off

RustyNut

Emperor Qianlong wrote: »

Why has NK suddenly become such an issue. They have been doing the same **** for years there
Anything to do with Trumps domestic issues in the US maybe ?

It's a great deflection from the dodgy dealings with the Russians.

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Do you know current affairs? China and America are at each throats over the South China Seas for over 2 years. It's only a matter of when not if they go to war. The Chinese media said it's government should help NK if America strikes first.

If I'd just arrived from Mars, I'd be under the impression that there was only China, some American bases that mysteriously appeared in the Western Pacific area...and nobody else at all. No Japan, no Phillipines, no Vietnam, no Malaysia, no Indonesia....

archer22 wrote: »

Likewise on the US side...just look at the ring of military bases they are trying to put around China and the provocations in the SCS.

What provocations would they be now?

Nettle Soup

archer22 wrote: »

Ask the Neo-cons in America what their new world vision for the American century is.
What their goals everywhere are...why did they destroy the stability of the middle east?
And ask yourself are they going to be happy with playing second fiddle to an Asian superpower.

You said China and USA are going to war. A war I believe neither can "win". Stop waffling and please tell me why and what the result is...here is my post again.

Ok, lets imagine that everybody loses the head and China and USA go to all out war - I am still 100% positive this will never happen despite all the high level "facts" you have - but for sake of argument let's play this out.
So China and USA decide it would be prudent to enter into a mutually destructive war for whatever reason (not to save Kim/NK either!)...so many questions;
Cui bono? When do the nukes start flying? Are there land invasions? Who wins this conflict? Who finances the war considering the massive US debt? Does China invade and take over the USA or vice versa? What's the end game?
Please use your strategic nous to play this superpower war out for me...

InTheTrees

This is all a contrived distraction.

There's been no other intelligence agency to corroborate this "intelligence" report by the DIA on nk's missile technology. They were the agency formally headed by the discredited general Flynn. Not too credible.

And now China has quite forcefully warned that if NK attacks the US then China won't be around to help them, and if the US attacks NK then China will help NK.

That pretty much closes the whole issue down doesn't it?

archer22

Nettle Soup wrote: »

You said China and USA are going to war. A war I believe neither can "win". Stop waffling and please tell me why and what the result is...here is my post again.

Ok, lets imagine that everybody loses the head and China and USA go to all out war - I am still 100% positive this will never happen despite all the high level "facts" you have - but for sake of argument let's play this out.
So China and USA decide it would be prudent to enter into a mutually destructive war for whatever reason (not to save Kim/NK either!)...so many questions;
Cui bono? When do the nukes start flying? Are there land invasions? Who wins this conflict? Who finances the war considering the massive US debt? Does China invade and take over the USA or vice versa? What's the end game?
Please use your strategic nous to play this superpower war out for me...

What you need to do is stop asking stupid questions that you know cannot be answered....who do you think you are talking to...the bloody pentagon!!.
It has been explained clearly enough that both sides are preparing for eventual conflict...What the hell do you think China is building Carrier busting missiles for and America surrounding China for :rolleyes:
You want me to give you the fine details of each sides military plans...Do you think they share them with me

Nettle Soup

archer22 wrote: »

What you need to do is stop asking stupid questions that you know cannot be answered....who do you think you are talking to...the bloody pentagon!!.
It has been explained clearly enough that both sides are preparing for eventual conflict...What the hell do you think China is building Carrier busting missiles for and America surrounding China for :rolleyes:
You want me to give you the fine details of each sides military plans...Do you think they shatre them with me

You're out of your depth now so I want you to answer 1 simple question.
You claim China and USA will go to war soon. Why would they go to war - cui bono?

archer22

Nettle Soup wrote: »

You're out of your depth now so I want you to answer 1 simple question.
You claim China and USA will go to war soon. Why would they go to war - cui bono?

Where was the word "SOON" used!!...now you are making up statements as well.

Everybody is out of their depth to a degree because we are not world leaders who are privy to the inner chambers of power.

As I said contact the pentagon for the information you require...we are after all only posters on a discussion forum, no bloody point asking us on fine details of future invasions, financing and post war occupations :rolleyes:

Now if you are so in your dept perhaps you will enlighten us on why there never will be a war and why there is no danger of such ?

I sure we are all happy to be educated by someone intellectually gifted

Infini

InTheTrees wrote: »

This is all a contrived distraction.

There's been no other intelligence agency to corroborate this "intelligence" report by the DIA on nk's missile technology. They were the agency formally headed by the discredited general Flynn. Not too credible.

And now China has quite forcefully warned that if NK attacks the US then China won't be around to help them, and if the US attacks NK then China will help NK.

That pretty much closes the whole issue down doesn't it?

China's position would be pretty clear in any confilict: They're not gonna let the US just start a war unprovoked BUT theyre not gonna back up kimmy if HE starts one. It's a straightforward and proper answer. They're tired of North Korea themselves and their antics it suits them right now to keep em there BUT I would expect that to change if NK keeps it up. When they become a liability to china is when things seriously change in that area.

Why has NK suddenly become such an issue. They have been doing the same **** for years there
Anything to do with Trumps domestic issues in the US maybe ?

Problem is since Fatty the 3rd came on the scene hes had 4 nuke tests and has recently started with ICBM tests. Thats whats getting them so much attention. Because of it Russia and China who normally dont vote in favour of sanctions actually agreed to them this time. Kimmy seems to be getting butthurt because of this and starts throwing around threats. President Troll then fires back and it just basically a ****stirring competition right now.

Most people dont expect anything to happen atm there is those big wargames next week in SK though. That being said there's no report of any major miltary movements from the US right now if they were serious there would be a buildup of Troops and Hardware in the region as well as evacuations of civilians. That this hasnt happened shows you its not as big as it seems right now.

My money though if something kicks off is if North Korea were to do something stupid like how they Shelled a South Korean Town and Sunk a South Korean Warship a few years back. Something like that in this kind of atmosphere is what could kick off some serious tit for tat engagements that could spiral into a serious conflict. This is the real fear for those looking at the situation in any 2nd Korean War kicking off a scenario where NK goes too far and it snowballs from here onwards.

I wouldnt expect Nukes to be used either unless it were a last stand situation either the one thing about those weapons is its nearly impossible to use them without the other side retaliating in kind. If NK were to strike first it would trigger an overwhelmingly disporprtionate retaliatory strike from America with all the horrors involved (ie Their major complexes get nuked all at once).

Nettle Soup

archer22 wrote: »

Where was the word "SOON" used!!...now you are making up statements as well.

Everybody is out of their depth to a degree because we are not world leaders who are privy to the inner chambers of power.

As I said contact the pentagon for the information you require...we are after all only posters on a discussion forum, no bloody point asking us on fine details of future invasions, financing and post war occupations :rolleyes:

Now if you are so in your dept perhaps you will enlighten us on why there never will be a war and why there is no danger of such ?

I sure we are all happy to be educated by someone intellectually gifted

Cheerful Spring said "About 1 to 3 years at most"

You said the Chinese were building their military forces etc etc and...

archer22 wrote: »

So as both expect a war at some stage...I think its quite reasonable for observers to expect the same

I am not asking How they will go to war. I am asking Why. Who benefits? Surely you can back up your claim.

Please don't take the cowards way out and tell me to ask the Pentagon. You need to back up your claim.

Nettle Soup

Infini wrote: »

President Troll then fires back and it just basically a ****stirring competition right now.

I like it!

Infini

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I am not asking How they will go to war. I am asking Why. Who benefits? Surely you can back up your claim.

Please don't take the cowards way out and tell me to ask the Pentagon. You need to back up your claim.

It's down to the Nukes and that they're acquiring the technology to strike at the US. Small dictatorship treating bigger Democracy. The problem with NK is when other nations got Nukes they don't go round throwing out threats against other countries but North Korea threatens to regularly burn the US etc. They think by getting them that they wont get invaded and they can keep their state prison camp running indefinitely but they're drawing the WRONG kind of attention by doing so. The fear here is that NK with nukes gets more aggressive and causes more trouble or exports the tech to other trouble spots on the planet. Thats the thinking in anyway.

archer22

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Cheerful Sprint said "About 1 to 3 years at most"

You said the Chinese were building their military forces etc etc and...




I am not asking How they will go to war. I am asking Why. Who benefits? Surely you can back up your claim.

How about great power rivalry and dominance...its as old as history itself.
Its what started WW1
Conflict is possible over natural resources such as oil both China and the US are massive users of this dwindling and vital natural resource.
China's allies like North Korea and Iran are nations in mortal danger from the US...Iran is a vital Oil supplier to China.And of course North Korea a vital strategic area to China.
Then there is the South China Sea issue and its resources.

There is also the reality that the US General McArthur planned a nuclear attack on China in the 1950s...luckily he was removed from his position....why did he want to destroy the PRC ? for what possible advantage? getting rid of an obstacle and hindarence to America .
And who is able to predict that his kind will not appear again or maybe is already there.
....endless possibilities for conflict, only fools can believe its impossible.

archer22

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Cheerful Spring said "About 1 to 3 years at most"

You said the Chinese were building their military forces etc etc and...




I am not asking How they will go to war. I am asking Why. Who benefits? Surely you can back up your claim.

Please don't take the cowards way out and tell me to ask the Pentagon. You need to back up your claim.

Now you back up your assertions that there is no possibility....and Don't take the sneaks way out by asking me again for invasion, financing and occupation plans

And don't accuse me of statements that you knew were made by other posters either...be honest!

Nettle Soup

archer22 wrote: »

How about great power rivalry and dominance...its as old as history itself.
Its what started WW1
Conflict is possible over natural resources such as oil both China and the US are massive users of this dwindling and vital natural resource.
China's allies like North Korea and Iran are nations in mortal danger from the US...Iran is a vital Oil supplier to China.And of course North Korea a vital strategic area to China.
Then there is the South China Sea issue and its resources.

There is also the reality that the US General McArthur planned a nuclear attack on China in the 1950s...luckily he was removed from his position....why did he want to destroy the PRC ? for what possible advantage? getting rid of an obstacle and hindarence to America .
And who is able to predict that his kind will not appear again or maybe is already there.
....endless possibilities for conflict, only fools can believe its impossible.

This makes no sense. You're saying China and USA will destroy each other for prestige and oil? Nobody wins a nuclear war. Do you not get that? Nuclear superpowers do not go to war because its game over if they do. Why would they?

bilston

Emperor Qianlong wrote: »

Why has NK suddenly become such an issue. They have been doing the same **** for years there
Anything to do with Trumps domestic issues in the US maybe ?

They have never had the ability to strike the continental United States before.

Whether they can stick a nuke on the end of those missiles yet is highly debateable but they aren't far away and that's why the US are looking to act now.

bilston

InTheTrees wrote: »

This is all a contrived distraction.

There's been no other intelligence agency to corroborate this "intelligence" report by the DIA on nk's missile technology. They were the agency formally headed by the discredited general Flynn. Not too credible.

And now China has quite forcefully warned that if NK attacks the US then China won't be around to help them, and if the US attacks NK then China will help NK.

That pretty much closes the whole issue down doesn't it?

Well not quite because there is the scenario where NK launches a missile TOWARDS Guam which is obviously a massive provocation. The US might see that as an attack, how would China view it though?

archer22

Nettle Soup wrote: »

This makes no sense. You're saying China and USA will destroy each other for prestige and oil? Nobody wins a nuclear war. Do you not get that? Nuclear superpowers do not go to war because its game over if they do. Why would they?

No you don't get it do you....most wars are limited affairs.Examples are Sino Russian border war in the 1960s....both nuclear powers but their wars were limited conflicts...neither of them used nuclear weapons or sought the complete destruction of the other.

Same with India/ Pakistan conflicts both nuclear powers but their military clashes were kept limited.

Nuclear conflict and mutual destruction is a far more remote prospect than conventional limited war with limited objectives.

But then there are also loose cannons with little reason or logic like Trump so who can be 100% sure!.