US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

Learn how to understand a point.

It was completely irrelevant.

I hate to use this word but it's a useless strawman.

Shurimgreat

nice_guy80 wrote: »

cannot understand where NK have suddenly got all this missile technology from

Unemployed Russian scientists obviously helped.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-secret-to-kims-success-some-experts-see-russian-echoes-in-north-koreas-missiles-advances/2017/07/08/5d4f5fca-6364-11e7-a4f7-af34fc1d9d39_story.html?utm_term=.cb161231eec9

There was a lot of Cold War missible experts with very little to do in the mid 1990s and had to feed their families somehow.

I think a Pakistani nuclear expert helped them with their nuclear program.

But in recent years they've made most of the gains by themselves, although I still suspect China has been a big help.

Nettle Soup

But hark, a voice like thunder spake
The West’s awake, the West’s awake
Sing oh, Hurrah, let North Korea quake
We’ll watch till death for Erin’s sake

dr.fuzzenstein

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Unemployed Russian scientists obviously helped.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-secret-to-kims-success-some-experts-see-russian-echoes-in-north-koreas-missiles-advances/2017/07/08/5d4f5fca-6364-11e7-a4f7-af34fc1d9d39_story.html?utm_term=.cb161231eec9

There was a lot of Cold War missible experts with very little to do in the mid 1990s and had to feed their families somehow.

I think a Pakistani nuclear expert helped them with their nuclear program.

But in recent years they've made most of the gains by themselves, although I still suspect China has been a big help.

I find China's implicit support of NK baffling.
Apart from China obviously having a soft spot for murderous regimes (Tiananmen anyone?), is there anything in particular I'm not seeing? Animosity towards SK? Piss off the US? A desire to see the world burn?

Avatar MIA

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Unemployed Russian scientists obviously helped.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-secret-to-kims-success-some-experts-see-russian-echoes-in-north-koreas-missiles-advances/2017/07/08/5d4f5fca-6364-11e7-a4f7-af34fc1d9d39_story.html?utm_term=.cb161231eec9

There was a lot of Cold War missible experts with very little to do in the mid 1990s and had to feed their families somehow.

I think a Pakistani nuclear expert helped them with their nuclear program.

But in recent years they've made most of the gains by themselves, although I still suspect China has been a big help.

I find China's implicit support of NK baffling.
Apart from China obviously having a soft spot for murderous regimes (Tiananmen anyone?), is there anything in particular I'm not seeing? Animosity towards SK? Piss off the US? A desire to see the world burn?

Doesn't want US ally on it's border.

Avatar MIA

Anyone else think it's hilarious China/Russia telling everyone to chill and try diplomacy. If they were the ones on the end of a loons ravings they wouldn't be so understanding.

ohnonotgmail

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Anyone else think it's hilarious China/Russia telling everyone to chill and try diplomacy. If they were the ones on the end of a loons ravings they wouldn't be so understanding.

If russia were on the receiving end they would have invaded long ago.

archer22

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Anyone else think it's hilarious China/Russia telling everyone to chill and try diplomacy. If they were the ones on the end of a loons ravings they wouldn't be so understanding.

China and Russia are on the "end of a loons ravings"....do you not follow Trumps tweets then?.:pac:

Middle Man

North Korea is now a nuclear power and the world needs to get used to it. Negotiation is the only peaceful option now! Naturally, I don't support the reclusive regime, but it is quite clear that global megaphone politics has failed and that western politicians need to grow up and start serving their peoples (that's what they're paid to do) instead of playing this stupid global power game and wasting our resources in the process!

BillyBobBS

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If russia were on the receiving end they would have invaded long ago.

Don't know about invaded but yeah they would have destroyed the Kim regime's nuclear ambitions without doubt. America has been pretty restrained up until now tbh but now that it looks like they can reach the US mainland with a nuke that's all over.

archer22

Middle Man wrote: »

North Korea is now a nuclear power and the world needs to get used to it. Negotiation is the only peaceful option now! Naturally, I don't support the reclusive regime, but it is quite clear that global megaphone politics has failed and that western politicians need to grow up and start serving their peoples (that's what they're paid to do) instead of playing this stupid global power game and wasting our resources in the process!

Agreed but sadly there are a lot of fools that can't accept that reality is actually real!

ZeroThreat

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Japan prepares to evacuate citizens from South Korea.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Pyongyang-provocation/North-Korea-threat-prompts-Japan-evacuation-preparations

.

ilkhanid

archer22 wrote: »

There is no escaping the fact that the Korean issue is an American made problem.
America should have stayed the hell out of the Korean civil war...it was none the hell of America's business.It was an internal Korean issue.
If they had stayed out Korea would have been a united nation long ago and the conflict consigned to the pages of history.
After all real peace only came to Vietnam after the US was driven out, if they had not been expelled Vietnam would still be a war zone...it was the failure to clear America off the Korean peninsula that left it a simmering tinderbox.

Really? Would you support a war by, say, Argentina against Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Bolivia on that grounds? A war by Burundi against Rwanda? A war by Greece against Macedonia? Romania against Moldova? India against Bangladesh? Malaysia against Brunei? Pakistan against Afghanistan? The KSA against the other Gulf States? I'd say you probably approved of Saddam's invasion of Kuwaut on those grounds (but I doubt you were alive then to cheer him on).

archer22 wrote: »

I think you will find America and Britain helped Stalin to enslave half of Europe.

Your alternative? The Red Army was in place....and it wasn't shifting.

fxotoole

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I find China's implicit support of NK baffling.
Apart from China obviously having a soft spot for murderous regimes (Tiananmen anyone?), is there anything in particular I'm not seeing? Animosity towards SK? Piss off the US? A desire to see the world burn?

Ideological support for their fellow commie neighbours

ZeroThreat

ilkhanid wrote: »

So subjecting 30 million more peope to hellish totalitarianism would have been a good idea. Really. Do you think you might have a chance of persuading the people of Seoul that they should be under the rule of the Kims? Good luck!



Really? Would you support a war by, say, Argentina against Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Bolivia on that grounds? A war by Burundi against Rwanda? A war by Greece against Macedonia? Romania against Moldova? India against Banglaesh? Malaysia against Brunei? Pakistan against Afghanistan? The KSA against the other Gulf States? I'd say you probably approved of Saddam's invasion of Kuwaut on those grounds (but I doubt you were alive then to cheer him on).

The cognitive dissonance of the resident lefties on this site is truly breathtaking

fxotoole

fxotoole wrote: »

Ideological support for their fellow commie neighbours

They certainly don't support Vietnam.

MickDoyle1979

The side I am on is a no-brainer.
America Japan & South Korea are democracies and major industrialized civilized countries.
They are being threatened by a brutal.murderous totalitarian regime armed with nuclear weapons which potentially can be fired at any point on Earth.
Kim must be stopped.
The debate and argument is over.
If this means war then so be it.
Enough is enough.

howamidifferent

MickDoyle1979 wrote: »

The side I am on is a no-brainer.
America Japan & South Korea are democracies and major industrialized civilized countries.
They are being threatened by a brutal.murderous totalitarian regime armed with nuclear weapons which potentially can be fired at any point on Earth.
Kim must be stopped.
The debate and argument is over.
If this means war then so be it.
Enough is enough.

Okay Don!

BillyBobBS

MickDoyle1979 wrote: »

The side I am on is a no-brainer.
America Japan & South Korea are democracies and major industrialized civilized countries.
They are being threatened by a brutal.murderous totalitarian regime armed with nuclear weapons which potentially can be fired at any point on Earth.
Kim must be stopped.
The debate and argument is over.
If this means war then so be it.
Enough is enough.

Don't think you'll find many sane people disagreeing with that.

BillyBobBS

President Trump has just tweeted he is going to allow Japan and SK buy much more weapons from the US. Good to see the proper steps being taken to defend democracy and our way of life against these commie nutjobs.

MickDoyle1979

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Don't think you'll find many sane people disagreeing with that.

The preemptive strike must be now or soon or else the window closes.

In years to come the Kim regime could have countless nukes aimed at not just American cities but every major city on Earth and would be able to dictate any terms Fat Boy wishes.

The whole world will have a gun pointed at it's head.

If America and is allies do not act now it will soon be too late

MickDoyle1979

MickDoyle1979 wrote: »

The side I am on is a no-brainer.
America Japan & South Korea are democracies and major industrialized civilized countries.
They are being threatened by a brutal.murderous totalitarian regime armed with nuclear weapons which potentially can be fired at any point on Earth.
Kim must be stopped.
The debate and argument is over.
If this means war then so be it.
Enough is enough.

I'd suggest you learn what a pyrrhic victory is. And try to understand the irony of you calling him murderous while you're in rage mode looking for the deaths of millions because you're scared and don't understand the politics of nuclear weapons.

BillyBobBS

MickDoyle1979 wrote: »

The preemptive strike must be now or soon or else the window closes.

In years to come the Kim regime could have countless nukes aimed at not just American cities but every major city on Earth and would be able to dictate any terms Fat Boy wishes.

The whole world will have a gun pointed at it's head.

If America and is allies do not act now it will soon be too late

The US will not let that happen. The minute it became possible to strike the US mainland with a nuclear missile was the minute the NK regime signed it's own death warrant. It's a matter of when not if now.

Shurimgreat

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd suggest you learn what a pyrrhic victory is. And try to understand the irony of you calling him murderous while you're in rage mode looking for the deaths of millions because you're scared and don't understand the politics of nuclear weapons.

He does make a good point about it being a murderous, reckless regime, which is unpredictable and liable to do anything. Realistically if Kim wanted to wipe Seoul off the face of the earth in the morning, what's to stop him? The South Koreans response would be tame in comparison. Are the US going to wipe out Pyongyang in return? MAD only works when both sides have nukes. SK don't have any, nor does Japan.

I think most people have established at this stage that Kim is nuts, bonkers and not the full shilling.

China, by tolerating a mass murdering regime on its door step have brought us to this impasse. They are completely useless when it comes to reigning in their supposed puppet state. They seem to have as much control over North Korea now as anyone else, which is zilch.

4068ac1elhodqr

Shurimgreat wrote: »

...MAD only works when both sides have nukes. SK don't have any, nor does Japan.

I think most people have established at this stage that Kim is nuts, bonkers and not the full shilling.

China, by tolerating a mass murdering regime on its door step have brought us to this impasse. They are completely useless when it comes to reigning in their supposed puppet state. They seem to have as much control over North Korea now as anyone else, which is zilch.

Reckon both Japan & SK will shortly become 'nu-powers' because of this, what other choice to they have. Thus China played this game of chess very wrong indeed.

China is useless, they could have resolved this, but choose to let their 'barking mad little pet terrier dog' upset the whole neighbourhood. They could have just taken him in if so desired. Now others are bringing round their packs of big rottweilers to solve this unpleasant noise issue.

Shurimgreat

Shurimgreat wrote: »

He does make a good point about it being a murderous, reckless regime, which is unpredictable and liable to do anything. Realistically if Kim wanted to wipe Seoul off the face of the earth in the morning, what's to stop him? The South Koreans response would be tame in comparison. Are the US going to wipe out Pyongyang in return? MAD only works when both sides have nukes. SK don't have any, nor does Japan.

What's to stop him? His own destruction. You could say this about any leader anywhere.

And MAD does exist since SK and the US are allies. I can't believe people actually believe he's going to fire a missile and end his country and his life.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think most people have established at this stage that Kim is nuts, bonkers and not the full shilling.

No, people who can't think for themselves think he's literally insane. The guy has made every right move since taking power to preserve his position.. It's actually impressive how well he's done it.

And it's pretty damn clear he's smarter than a lot of posters here. He won't get taken down like Gaddafi by giving up his weapons.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

China, by tolerating a mass murdering regime on its door step have brought us to this impasse. They are completely useless when it comes to reigning in their supposed puppet state. They seem to have as much control over North Korea now as anyone else, which is zilch.

China didn't cause it. They've maintained it and they had good reason to, similar to other superpowers supporting various countries and nuclear nations.

josip

MickDoyle1979 wrote: »

In years to come the Kim regime could have countless nukes aimed at not just American cities but every major city on Earth and would be able to dictate any terms Fat Boy wishes.

The whole world will have a gun pointed at it's head.

No it won't. National nuclear weapons only provide security from invasion/attack by other countries.
They cannot be used offensively against other countries that either have nukes themselves or have treaties with countries that do.
That's because there's a return to sender address you can use.

Nukes not owned by a nation, eg a terrorist organisation, are a different story because retaliation is much more difficult.
But obtaining a decent nuke requires so much time and resources that at the moment and for the foreseeable future, only nation states will be able to produce them.
Also, my understanding is neither can states sell them to terrorists because if they were ever used, the nuclear fingerprint will identify the country of origin. Perhaps someone else can confirm/correct this?

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Realistically if Kim wanted to wipe Seoul off the face of the earth in the morning, what's to stop him? .

Self preservation.

Billy86

Never gets old looking at the trump apologists who were so adamant that the only (and/or biggest) reason they wanted him to win the election was for world peace, us isolationism and the end of the 'world police' interventionism, and to avoid what they eagerly wanted to call an imminent nuclear war shoukd he not win.

And yet now they're the biggest cheerleaders for dropping the biggest bombs in history on the Middle East and going for nuclear war with north Korea.

Someone mentioned cognitive dissonance, and yes, it really is astounding. Trumpism is a remarkable mental illness.

josip

josip wrote: »

Also, my understanding is neither can states sell them to terrorists because if they were ever used the nuclear fingerprint will identify the country of origin. Perhaps someone else can confirm/correct this?

Yeah, the fallout can be likely be linked to the origin if I remember correctly.. If a nuke goes off, people know where it came from. So a country selling one is signing it's own death warrant.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19699-nuclear-bomb-debris-holds-clues-to-who-planted-it/

That said, there are loads of nukes missing.

4068ac1elhodqr

Billy86 wrote: »

the only (and/or biggest) reason they wanted him to win the election was for world peace

Are you confusing anti-globalisation and a somewhat protectionist self-preservation outlook, with other electoral candidates billboard adverts that maybe featured white doves, harpists and rainbows?