US considering Preemptive Strike against North Korea.

ZeroThreat

MickDoyle1979 wrote: »

The preemptive strike must be now or soon or else the window closes.

In years to come the Kim regime could have countless nukes aimed at not just American cities but every major city on Earth and would be able to dictate any terms Fat Boy wishes.

The whole world will have a gun pointed at it's head.

If America and is allies do not act now it will soon be too late

It's like when the white council failed to destory with the Necromancer at Dol Guldur, so he moved to Mordor and grew more powerful

Shurimgreat

Deleted User wrote: »

What's to stop him? His own destruction. You could say this about any leader anywhere.

And MAD does exist since SK and the US are allies. I can't believe people actually believe he's going to fire a missile and end his country and his life.

No, people who can't think for themselves think he's literally insane. The guy has made every right move since taking power to preserve his position.. It's actually impressive how well he's done it.

And it's pretty damn clear he's smarter than a lot of posters here. He won't get taken down like Gaddafi by giving up his weapons.

China didn't cause it. They've maintained it and they had good reason to, similar to other superpowers supporting various countries and nuclear nations.

He's purged and murdered everyone in his path. The NK regime routinely interns and murders whole families in concentration camps. Escaped prison guards among others have verified this. I'm glad you think that's impressive. There is nothing impressive about this guy. He's just your regular dictator persecuting and murdering his people in order to stay in power. Unsurprisingly he is the type of dictator greatly admired by many in the far left both here and elsewhere.

Supergurrier

ZeroThreat wrote: »

It's like when the white council failed to destory with the Necromancer at Dol Guldur, so he moved to Mordor and grew more powerful

Shurimgreat

josip wrote: »

Self preservation.

He's not a rationale person. He could have easily preserved himself by not building nuclear weapons. Now he has them and taunts the US, they seem determined to wipe him out. There was little likelihood of the US invading or attacking NK up until recently. With his own recent activities he's increased the chances of his own downfall significantly. Not a clever move by him in my book.
The US are not going to tolerate some tin pot dictator threathening them with nukes nor should they. They are perfectly entitled to take this guy out. Millions of Americans suffering or millions of Koreans suffering. I think we both know which way the Americans think.

Shurimgreat

Shurimgreat wrote: »

He's purged and murdered everyone in his path. The NK regime routinely interns and murders whole families in concentration camps. Escaped prison guards among others have verified this. I'm glad you think that's impressive. There is nothing impressive about this guy. He's just your regular dictator persecuting and murdering his people in order to stay in power. Unsurprisingly he is the type of dictator greatly admired by many in the far left both here and elsewhere.

I know everything about him and that country is horrific and I didn't just start reading about NK recently like most ill-informed and reactionary posters in here. If you don't understand what I meant by impressive, you're either a total idiot or purposefully acting like to one to paint a certain picture of me.

You don't win arguments by making shlt up in your head about what other posters think.

suicide_circus

Time for Realpolitik. Who is gonna keep an iPhone in your one hand and a cheeseburger in the other? It aint old kimmy boy.

josip

Shurimgreat wrote: »

He's not a rationale person...

It's to his advantage if his opponents doubt his rationality or sanity.
http://www.bbc.com/news/33507250

Shurimgreat

Deleted User wrote: »

I know everything about him and that country is horrific and I didn't just start reading about NK recently like most ill-informed and reactionary posters in here. If you don't understand what I meant by impressive, you're either a total idiot or purposefully acting like to one to paint a certain picture of me.

You don't win arguments by making shlt up in your head about what other posters think.

No I fully understand you mean. You are impressed by him.

All he has brought to NK is more and tougher sanctions as well as probably the demise of his regime. Had he abandoned nukes, his people would be a lot more prosperous.

Like I said there is nothing impressive about this thug.

I guarantee his people despise him. You think they like living in NK? Of course they don't. No-one would.

ohnonotgmail

Shurimgreat wrote: »

No I fully understand you mean. You are impressed by him.

All he has brought to NK is more and tougher sanctions as well as probably the demise of his regime. Had he abandoned nukes, his people would be a lot more prosperous.

Like I said there is nothing impressive about this thug.

I guarantee his people despise him. You think they like living in NK? Of course they don't. No-one would.

but you are assuming that is one of his goals. I doubt his goals extend to more than keeping himself and his cronies in power.

Shurimgreat

Shurimgreat wrote: »

No I fully understand you mean. You are impressed by him.

All he has brought to NK is more and tougher sanctions as well as probably the demise of his regime. Had he abandoned nukes, his people would be a lot more prosperous.

Like I said there is nothing impressive about this thug.

I guarantee his people despise him. You think they like living in NK? Of course they don't. No-one would.

It's a pity you're incapable of discerning the subtle difference between "The thing he did was impressive" and "I am impressed by him".


Basic example: Hitler's rise to power was impressive. His political skills were impressive. His public speeches were impressive. His painting skills were impressive. But I am not impressed by Hitler.


So back to what I said: "The guy has made every right move since taking power to preserve his position.. It's actually impressive how well he's done it."

That does not mean I admire him or respect him as a person. He doesn't impress me. But in vacuum where we are talking about his reign as dictator, what he has done has been impressive. War is now further from the realms of possibility than it's ever been, despite the posturing. He has secured his position indefinitely.



If you continue to misunderstand me, I've zero interest in debating this further. There are people here calling for a first-strike resulting in mass casualties whereas I'm trying to read the situation and know that nuclear nations never go to war.

Shurimgreat

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but you are assuming that is one of his goals. I doubt his goals extend to more than keeping himself and his cronies in power.

That would probably be his main goal yes. Its not too difficult to stay in power if you are a dictator. But some dictators go too far and I think Kim has this time.
His father and grandfather held on to power for 65 years. They knew how far to push things with the international community.

backspin.

I don't see any attack on North Korea coming at all. I just cannot see it happen. I think there will be an increase in sanctions and an attempt to get china to stop doing business with NK. North Korea will continue with its chest beating meanwhile China and American relations may become strained. I don't see North Korea attacking anyone either.

Arsemageddon

Shurimgreat wrote: »

He's purged and murdered everyone in his path. The NK regime routinely interns and murders whole families in concentration camps. Escaped prison guards among others have verified this. I'm glad you think that's impressive. There is nothing impressive about this guy. He's just your regular dictator persecuting and murdering his people in order to stay in power. Unsurprisingly he is the type of dictator greatly admired by many in the far left both here and elsewhere.

You clearly have not understood the post you are responding to, and the ridiculous last sentence indicates why. Only the looniest of loony lefties would advocate in favour of North Korea.

The point being made was that so far Kim has been playing the game of brinkmanship rather well, the ultimate goal of which is to secure his own position within North Korea and to stave off external attempts at regime change by developing and publicly exhibiting a credible nuclear deterrent. This has nothing to do with the immorality of his regime.

ilkhanid

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

China and Russia don't have 50,000 American marines stationed on their border. You seem to forget the United States and North Korea never agreed to a peace treaty..

50 000. A trivial amount. You know how many troops Germany, France under Napoleon and Japan deployed to invade Russia and China? No Russian or Chinese general loses a munutes sleep over 50 000 soldiers. You wouldn't invade Norway with 50 000 soldiers.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

USSR failed not because of communism, it was the isolation and the arms build up the cost was too much to sustain.. China is still communist they only opened their markets for trade and commerce with the west. .

The USSR fell for a number of reasons. One of the most significant was it's total failure to comprehend the consequences of even limited political reform. A command economy is only compatible with a despotism and a command economy that refuses to make any use of market mechanisms and that depends on every decision on choice and allocations being taken by bureaucrats is a dreadfully inefficient system, slow and ponderous. Even Yugoslavia, that tried limited market reforms didn't work very well.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

NK is in the position it is because of the style of communism? I disagree they are in this position for taking on the United States, a world power that can crush you economically if they dislike you and turn most of the world against you.

If they had shut up and kept quiet, dialled down on the threats, artillery barrages and tunnel building, listened to the Chinese and instituted even limited reforms they'd have slipped under the world's--and more importantly-American notice, but they've set about making enemies left, right and centre. It wasn't the US that turned Japan, Burma -or more recently-Malaysia against North Korea.

archer22 wrote: »

Also North Korean schools are constantly on the look out for very bright pupils...these are then given special training to develop their talents.
End result is they have a lot of very talented people working on projects like the nuclear programme.

Nuclear, eh? Any jobs going in Public libraries, writing, newspapers, television, retail, bartending, book publishing, magazine publishing, public art, any art, music performance, cartooning, fashion design, comedy, Dj-ing, agriculture, judiciary, the legal profession......

Shurimgreat

Arsemageddon wrote: »

You clearly have not understood the post you are responding to, and the ridiculous last sentence indicates why. Only the looniest of loony lefties would advocate in favour of North Korea.

The point being made was that so far Kim has been playing the game of brinkmanship rather well, the ultimate goal of which is to secure his own position within North Korea and to stave off external attempts at regime change by developing and publicly exhibiting a credible nuclear deterrent. This has nothing to do with the immorality of his regime.

He's on the path to a credible nuclear deterrent. He hasn't achieved it yet. In the meantime his regime and people are being choked by another round of severe sanctions including the banning of coal exports which made up 1/3rd of their export revenue.

How well do you think FG would do in the opinion polls if one of their decisions caused a decline of 1/3rd of Irelands export revenue?

The next round of sanctions will be even tougher. After that the likely scenarios are 1. China invades NK and imposes a new puppet. 2. The Americans bomb NK back to the stoneage. 3. The country implodes through famine and the like. 4. Kim goes begging cap in hand to the west for food aid.

The guy has been an absolute disaster for North Korea. There is nothing admirable about him. He's brought his country to the brink or ruin, either militarily or through sanctions. I agree with Cheerful Spring. Countries can be ruined through sanctions just as effectively as military strikes. So as long as NK have nukes, they will suffer under harsher and harsher sanctions.

Mr.H

rossie1977 wrote: »

That analogy doesn't really work. It's more like a scumbag in his own home and the police, security outside his wall taunting and teasing him while he comes out and fires a gun in the air to tell them stay off his property or he will kill them.

It wasn't Obama's place to do anything past what he did do and it's not Trump. The North Koreans have been readying themselves for an invasion from the imperialist us (as they view them) for the last 50 years. If the us attack then everything the kims have said about America has been right and at that point 25 million North Koreans will willingly give up their life.

America can do nothing unless North Korea attack first then all bets are off. Attack first and South Korea will be destroyed and you drag Russia and China into a global nuclear war against the us.

Are you kidding me????

North Korea has been saying for years that they were preparing for an attack from the US.

Recently (yes when Obama was in charge) their verbal mouthpiece (when he wasnt killing his family in a very spyish way - very cool by the way if it wasnt real life) was threatening to take the fight to America.

First of all there was no fight. Secondly he is bringing a non existent fight to the States.

When he first said this stuff, Obama ignored him. They implemented sanctions eventually.

Now fast forward to present day where Kim says he has a "present for America"........................

He might be in his own house but he is about to leave his house with a nuke and he means harm.

North Korea should have been dealt with back in the 50's

osarusan

I get the idea that NK is doing this purely to protect their own leadership, but, prior to the recent tests they've carried out and revelations of their nuclear capacity , what indications were there that their position of power was less secure than previously?

Billy86

Evie Big Troop wrote: »

Are you confusing anti-globalisation and a somewhat protectionist self-preservation outlook, with other electoral candidates billboard adverts that maybe featured white doves, harpists and rainbows?

Not even remotely, even here on boards you just have to go back through the threads from last year to look up the posters terrified about the oncoming nuclear war if Trump did not win.

Funny how that stance has done a 180, but expected considering the candidate and those in support of him.

Mr.H

osarusan wrote: »

I get the idea that NK is doing this purely to protect their own leadership, but, prior to the recent tests they've carried out and revelations of their nuclear capacity , what indications were there that their position of power was less secure than previously?

I am in no way an expert so my opinion here holds absolutely no water and is purely my own feelings on the issue.

Kim Jong Un spent his whole adult life trying to be taken seriously. He was given power of North Korea in his mid 20's but before that he was talked as the future leader.

His dad died from "a fit of rage"............... at least thats what I read in some article awhile back (im not searching for it as the only reason for mentioning it is that it shows where my feeling comes from).

So if his dad had anger issues its safe to assume he may have some himself. The fact that he had the rest of his family, entourage and friends killed could back that up or be pure coincidence.

After having everyone who has ever questioned him killed he has very few antagonists left to argue with and have killed. So while his people are looking at him wondering "what is next?", he needs to show that he is still the strong leader he claims to be. He needs to keep proving himself because while nobody is questioning him publicly, I am sure his paranoia is all that is needed.

So how best to show how strong you are than to stand up to the country who has for years belittled your people and who has had its hands in the war that still has both north and south waiting to kill each other?

That is why Kim wants to go to war. He has done everything else and the only way for him to show how powerful he is, is for either America to beg for him to not nuke them or for him to actually nuke America and get revenge for them destroying their country in the first place (in their minds).

There is no room for diplomacy here.

Two options

• Destroy North Korea with all of the westeren worlds full force
• strategically take out Kim (which I am positive they have been trying for a very very long time)

osarusan

Mr.H wrote: »

That is why Kim wants to go to war.

I cannot imagine any scenario in which war doesn't end with the destruction and collapse of the NK regime. If there is war, it's over for him. He must know this.

So I don't think he wants to go to war at all - but he does want to maintain his position of power within NK.

But if we are to accept that this recent bout of missiles, testing and general increase in aggressive behaviour are part of his strategy of maintaining power, then I was wondering if there was also some recent indication that his position of power was being threatened in some way that it hadn't been previously.

Mr.H

osarusan wrote: »

I cannot imagine any scenario in which war doesn't end with the destruction and collapse of the NK regime. If there is war, it's over for him. He must know this.

So I don't think he wants to go to war at all - but he does want to maintain his position of power within NK.

My question was whether or not the recent tests and general increase in aggressive behaviour were in response to some indication that his position of power was being threatened in some way that it hadn't been previously.

He obviously see's this aggressive behavior as his only option I agree that there has been some sort of threat, at least in his perception.

But my point is I feel like its his own paranoia that is the threat.

My fear would be that while you are correct (about his reign will end in the event of war), he doesnt care about dying for his cause.

I think he would happily die as the leader who stuck against the Americans

Manic Moran

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Doesn't want US ally on it's border.

One of the more stupid arguments (Not saying it's not actually the Chinese position, but it's daft). What are they afraid of? It's not as if the US can't launch attacks on China by use of cruise missiles and aircraft sitting at the 12-mile limit.

BillyBobBS

So Kim has said he wants to nuke the US and yet Trump is the bad guy? Yeah the leftists are correct, America should just sit back and wait to be attacked. Maybe they should have sat back and let Hitler gas every single Jewish person on the planet and conquer Europe because you know Murica man.

F uc k that. Sometimes war is necessary that's just the reality.

BillyBobBS

BillyBobBS wrote: »

President Trump has just tweeted he is going to allow Japan and SK buy much more weapons from the US. Good to see the proper steps being taken to defend democracy and our way of life against these commie nutjobs.

Trump the businessman, drumming up business for the arms manufacturers.

dresden8

Kim has to make loud noises about his WMD.

Gadaffi gave up he WMD programmes and ended up with a knife up his arse and kicked to death.

Saddam gave up his WMD programmes and ended up hanged.

Now, these guys were attacked because the West knew they had no WMDs, despite the propaganda.

Kim is still alive precisely because the West knows he has WMDs.

It's a no brainer for Kim, come near NK or Kim and SK gets wiped off the map, and maybe a nuke or two in Tokyo.

Billy86

BillyBobBS wrote: »

So Kim has said he wants to nuke the US and yet Trump is the bad guy? Yeah the leftists are correct, America should just sit back and wait to be attacked. Maybe they should have sat back and let Hitler gas every single Jewish person on the planet and conquer Europe because you know Murica man.

F uc k that. Sometimes war is necessary that's just the reality.

Except war was to be avoided at all costs before January. Funny how the North Korean situation has got so much worse since almost immediately after Trump took office.

Arsemageddon

Manic Moran wrote: »

One of the more stupid arguments (Not saying it's not actually the Chinese position, but it's daft). What are they afraid of? It's not as if the US can't launch attacks on China by use of cruise missiles and aircraft sitting at the 12-mile limit.

The Chinese don't want the US to be able to build spying facilities (e.g. their reaction to the deployment of THAAD) or have a base to use soft power from (e.g. unrestricted internet access, TV stations, radio, etc.) to destabilise China.

The there is the whole national pride aspect. China will over take the US as the worlds largest economy in the next few years. This is not going down well with right-wingers in the US. A large percentage of Chinese are also ferociously nationalistic. Mr Trump's bellicose rhetoric hasn't exactly helped the situation.

Finally there is the very different methods by which China and the US pursue their foreign policy objectives. China has traditionally been inward looking and (generally speaking) does not proselytise i.e. try to impose its system of government on other countries. They only opened their first foreign military base last month whereas the US has bases all over the globe.

From the Chinese perspective the US is increasingly trying to meddle in its affairs (e.g. the South China Sea dispute) and it can only see hostile intent if Korea were to be unified.

BillyBobBS

Billy86 wrote: »

Except war was to be avoided at all costs before January. Funny how the North Korean situation has got so much worse since almost immediately after Trump took office.

That's because we have a credible American President who isn't going to except a madman with nukes. Funny how Obama did nothing except sit on late night talk shows for 8 years attempting to look cool whilst NK went about their business.

Ipso

Eight years on a talk show. Was it the Truman show?

Arsemageddon

Shurimgreat wrote: »

He's on the path to a credible nuclear deterrent. He hasn't achieved it yet. In the meantime his regime and people are being choked by another round of severe sanctions including the banning of coal exports which made up 1/3rd of their export revenue.

How well do you think FG would do in the opinion polls if one of their decisions caused a decline of 1/3rd of Irelands export revenue?

The next round of sanctions will be even tougher. After that the likely scenarios are 1. China invades NK and imposes a new puppet. 2. The Americans bomb NK back to the stoneage. 3. The country implodes through famine and the like. 4. Kim goes begging cap in hand to the west for food aid.

The guy has been an absolute disaster for North Korea. There is nothing admirable about him. He's brought his country to the brink or ruin, either militarily or through sanctions. I agree with Cheerful Spring. Countries can be ruined through sanctions just as effectively as military strikes. So as long as NK have nukes, they will suffer under harsher and harsher sanctions.

Yet again you seem to have missed the point entirely. I never said Kim was admirable.

Anyhoo, can you name any country led by a dictator that has been brought to its knees by sanctions? I can't think of any. That's because dictators generally don't give two hoots what happen to their people as long as they get to hold on to power.