NIGHT SHOOTING

cavan shooter

[QUOTE “Irish Firearms Dealers Association” and “Range Operators Association of Ireland” each has a representative at that table...[/QUOTE]

I have to correct you....THE ONLY TWO MEMBERS IN THE COUNTRY OF THESE ASSOCIATIONS ARE SITTING ON THE TABLE.

grassroot1

lads this thread is not about courses or who will give them its about avoiding the impact the night shooting proposals will have on our (varied) sport.
Can we get back to how we will ensure our opinions are heard.

Cass

I've moved all the discussion posts about training, and training courses into the thread talking about the deer renewals and HCAP/MHC.

It's more appropriate there as that thread specifically covers the proposal asking for training courses to be made mandatory.

Thread here.

Cass

On the NARGC website.

The NARGC have highlighted what other so called representative groups are doing on your behalf without your knowledge or consent. The NARGC have asked for what we've said from the start of this thread. Write to them, let them know you are opposed to what would effectively be a BAN ON NIGHT SHOOTING.

1. Don't sit back and think others will do it.
2. Don't sit back and think you cannot write well or eloquently
3. Don't sit back and think no one will read what you say.

Write into the NARGC or whatever group you are a member of, especially the ones that supported this abomination, and let them know you are opposed. It can be a page or a few lines. Anything. Just write in otherwise lack of opposition is as good as support.

BattleCorp

Briefly this report proposes to;
Amend the Garda Commissioners Guidelines to include the following.
(Garda Superintendents, Chief Superintendents, must issue licenses in accordance with these Guidelines)

• No Shooting to take place between 12.00 am – 6.00 am, 1st September to 31st March
• (Only exceptions, actual attack by dogs, or under licence Sec. 42)
  • This curfew will be written on your licence. (Unless you look for it not to be, Sec. 42 etc.)
  • During all other darkness hours (other than curfew times above) you should notify the landowner of your starting and finishing time before commencing.
  • Shooters should inform the local Garda station or nearest 24 hour station in the Garda District, prior to commencement of shooting during hours of darkness.

I'm not a solicitor or barrister nor do I have a law degree so maybe I'm incorrect in saying this, but what difference does amending the Garda Commissioners Guidelines make?

It's legislation that counts, not guidelines. If the Gardai implement these changes without legislation to back them up, they will be acting illegally. Am I correct in thinking this?

berettaman

Cass wrote: »

On the NARGC website.

The NARGC have highlighted what other so called representative groups are doing on your behalf without your knowledge or consent. The NARGC have asked for what we've said from the start of this thread. Write to them, let them know you are opposed to what would effectively be a BAN ON NIGHT SHOOTING.

1. Don't sit back and think others will do it.
2. Don't sit back and think you cannot write well or eloquently
3. Don't sit back and think no one will read what you say.

Write into the NARGC or whatever group you are a member of, especially the ones that supported this abomination, and let them know you are opposed. It can be a page or a few lines. Anything. Just write in otherwise lack of opposition is as good as support.

Spot On.

However the NARGC are on board already. They would appreciate the support but lets make sure our efforts are effective.

If you write to them you are validating what they are doing and that's grand but if you only have one letter in you it is more effective to write to your local TD/Councillor.

We have to raise awareness of this issue. I see the farming community as key in all of this too.

I am contacting 3 TDs and as many councillors as I can this weekend. We need to turn this from "done deal" to a hornets nest.

berettaman

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm not a solicitor or barrister nor do I have a law degree so maybe I'm incorrect in saying this, but what difference does amending the Garda Commissioners Guidelines make?

It's legislation that counts, not guidelines. If the Gardai implement these changes without legislation to back them up, they will be acting illegally. Am I correct in thinking this?

Making it a guideline not a law is an awful prospect in my opinion because it gives the Gardai in each district scope to interpret the rules as they see fit. This means if a local Super is ANTI shooting sports he can curb shooting in his area.
If a garda doesn't like the look of you he can stop you shooting at night , that is how open it is..
This will be a goldmine for legal challenges..you would nearly think that was the point of the exercise..sorry to be so cynical.:rolleyes:

BattleCorp

berettaman wrote: »

Making it a guideline not a law is an awful prospect in my opinion because it gives the Gardai in each district scope to interpret the rules as they see fit. This means if a local Super is ANTI shooting sports he can curb shooting in his area.
If a garda doesn't like the look of you he can stop you shooting at night , that is how open it is..
This will be a goldmine for legal challenges..you would nearly think that was the point of the exercise..sorry to be so cynical.:rolleyes:

Gardaí have to obey laws just like we have to. If they act outside their powers, the courts won't be long about slapping them down.

You are right that it will be a goldmine for legal challenges, but these are legal challenges that shooters would be more than likely to win as the law will be on their side. Judges tend to not like the Gardaí making up the law.

wirehairmax

BattleCorp wrote: »

Gardaí have to obey laws just like we have to. If they act outside their powers, the courts won't be long about slapping them down.

You are right that it will be a goldmine for legal challenges, but these are legal challenges that shooters would be more than likely to win as the law will be on their side. Judges tend to not like the Gardaí making up the law.

Who wants to let it go as far as a courtroom, there are no winners then except solicitors and barristers and judges. It would be stupid to allow that to happen. Stop it now before it goes there.

Sparks

Garda Superintendents, Chief Superintendents, must issue licenses in accordance with these Guidelines

This part's wrong. Not inaccurate, not questionable, just wrong. The supreme court ruled on this exact point, it was the entire point that Dunne v Donohue revolved on. The licencing person may not be fettered in their decision making process by anyone else. In practice, that means that the Commissioner is legally prohibited from directing a Superintendent in what had to be done before they could approve an application, and if caught doing so, she would be in contempt of the Supreme Court.

They had to change the Firearms Act just to let the commissioner issue guidelines and that is all they legally are. Granting them more authority than that is a bad idea, not to mention an illegal one.

cavan shooter

Is it worth writing to the Walsh lad surely a couple of thousand letters and a boycott of his shop should do the trick. Also boycott membership of the other groups that back this and cover them in letters

bluezulu49

Nargc looking for submissions on night shooting for next fpu meeting on 1st June. See nargc website. Current proposal would impact on duck & goose shooting.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm not a solicitor or barrister nor do I have a law degree so maybe I'm incorrect in saying this, but what difference does amending the Garda Commissioners Guidelines make?

Nor am i, but while legislation is needed for An Gardaí to enforce the Super/Chief Super has the authority to impose conditions, as they see fit, on your license already.

We don't want these proposals to gain any weight or merit. Worse again we don't want them to think it's coming form the larger shooting community, but a few "radicals" (if that is the right word) that have their own agenda.

berettaman wrote: »

Spot On.

However the NARGC are on board already. They would appreciate the support but lets make sure our efforts are effective.

That post is worded poorly and it was my third writing of it. Couldn't seem to get what i wanted written out without making it seem like the NARGC are part of it, or not aware of it.

Was speaking to some people over the last couple of weeks and the NARGC were not aware until we were, but have worked on it since. What is alarming about that is the SC and their cohorts are doing not only behind the backs of the shooting community but seemingly without the knowledge of the other FCP members (well some of them).

berettaman

Cass wrote: »

That post is worded poorly and it was my third writing of it. Couldn't seem to get what i wanted written out without making it seem like the NARGC are part of it, or not aware of it.

Was speaking to some people over the last couple of weeks and the NARGC were not aware until we were, but have worked on it since. What is alarming about that is the SC and their cohorts are doing not only behind the backs of the shooting community but seemingly without the knowledge of the other FCP members (well some of them).

My post is poorly worded also. The NARGC are on board AGAINST these proposals is what I meant to say.

NARGC found out very late for reasons outlined earlier and I believe they are working on this like mad at the moment.

The scope of this thing is amazing. It affects fox shooters, wild fowlers, deer shooters, sheep farmers and so on.

We are facing the commercialisation of our sport as one lad put it.

We all have to put our shoulder to the wheel..

wirehairmax

cavan shooter wrote: »

Is it worth writing to the Walsh lad surely a couple of thousand letters and a boycott of his shop should do the trick. Also boycott membership of the other groups that back this and cover them in letters

Do you want his number?

J.R.

Proposed Changes To Night Time Hunting – Shooting



The National Association of Regional Game Councils (NARGC) were represented at the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP) Meeting on the 20th April 2017, by our National Chairman Michael Fenlon, and Compensation Fund Administrator, Chris Gavican. We believe that we received a place at the table just in time to temporarily stop proposed changes that would substantially diminish our traditional sporting rights.

There were many items on the agenda, but the issue of night shooting dominated the Meeting.

https://nargc.ie/proposed-changes-to-night-time-hunting-shooting/

grassroot1

BattleCorp wrote: »

Gardaí have to obey laws just like we have to. If they act outside their powers, the courts won't be long about slapping them down.

You are right that it will be a goldmine for legal challenges, but these are legal challenges that shooters would be more than likely to win as the law will be on their side. Judges tend to not like the Gardaí making up the law.

Why would the FCP propose a document that would lead to court cases on firearms law?
The very reason it was set up was to avoid this happening in the future!!!

Cass

That si the very worst outcome of these proposals. That people think it's the FCP.

It's not.

This is the so called sports coalition and a couple of other groups WITHIN the FCP. The rest of the groups in the FCP knew nothing about the proposals

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Nor am i, but while legislation is needed for An Gardaí to enforce the Super/Chief Super has the authority to impose conditions, as they see fit, on your license already.

They could probably get away with imposing these conditions on a few people but I doubt they'd have the power to impose these conditions nationwide because that would be a blanket ban, and blanket bans aren't allowed. That's my understanding.

cavan shooter

grassroot1 wrote:

Why would the FCP propose a document that would lead to court cases on firearms law? The very reason it was set up was to avoid this happening in the future!!!

I better say nothing I like my house....

Backbarrel

Well Lads,

The farmers are pretty pissed about this night time shooting ban/curfew.

Did anyone catch the countrywide programme on radio 1?

"A gun is as important as your tractor" - farmers in uproar at new proposals which make countryside "more dangerous" @RTECountryWide 8am.

Fair play to the farmers for standing with hunters on this. Listen just after 42 mins in. Here is the link:

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F10720054%5F1523%5F06%2D05%2D2017%5F


For reference the meeting in Glendalough was Wicklow RGC not NARGC as such but it was brilliant that the coverage was given.

I expect IFA guy interviewed will backtrack on this pronto.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

They could probably get away with imposing these conditions on a few people but I doubt they'd have the power to impose these conditions nationwide because that would be a blanket ban, and blanket bans aren't allowed. That's my understanding.

You may very well be right. However it would take a class action to determine:

1. If the conditions imposed constituted a blanket ban
2. Are they within the remit of the authority to do so

The results may not b favorable.

So the best course of action is neutralise them before it gets that far. An Gardaí wouldn't want to see this any more than we would. It's completely unenforceable and would demand a level of manpower that is simply not there.

ligertigon

What about shooting during solar eclipses? would that be included?

gunny123

Backbarrel wrote: »

Well Lads,

The farmers are pretty pissed about this night time shooting ban/curfew.

Did anyone catch the countrywide programme on radio 1?

"A gun is as important as your tractor" - farmers in uproar at new proposals which make countryside "more dangerous" @RTECountryWide 8am.

Fair play to the farmers for standing with hunters on this. Listen just after 42 mins in. Here is the link:

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F10720054%5F1523%5F06%2D05%2D2017%5F


For reference the meeting in Glendalough was Wicklow RGC not NARGC as such but it was brilliant that the coverage was given.

I expect IFA guy interviewed will backtrack on this pronto.

Thanks for that link. The farmers are in uproar and the IFA really got off on the wrong foot with this one. As the wicklow farmer said it will do absolutely nothing to reduce poaching or rural crime. A proposal to make a select few money.

wirehairmax

The NARGC now have an online petition against this. Check their website www.nargc.ie for how to sign.

gunny123

wirehairmax wrote: »

The NARGC now have an online petition against this. Check their website www.nargc.ie for how to sign.

Thanks for that Wirehairmax, i have emailed the link to anyone i know who shoots.

cavan shooter

wirehairmax wrote: »

The NARGC now have an online petition against this. Check their website www.nargc.ie for how to sign.

I see we have 170 signatures..........I love the support you get from so called hunters/shooters......I can hear the "It doesnt affect me"

Birdnuts

Backbarrel wrote: »

I expect IFA guy interviewed will backtrack on this pronto.

The IFA would want to keep muppets like him well away from any microphone or reporter if that is the sort of sh*te he comes out with. Everyone has to pull together to ensure this proposal is dead in the water ASAP.

bluezulu49

cavan shooter wrote: »

I see we have 170 signatures..........I love the support you get from so called hunters/shooters......I can hear the "It doesnt affect me"

Petition does not work on windows phone.

Nekarsulm

bluezulu49 wrote: »

Petition does not work on windows phone.

Nor on the Kindle.. Keep getting the message "shouldn't be here" on the screen.