Retrieving Stolen Property

Tim76

Bit of an usual one for you guys but I was hoping for some advice.

I was out for a few drinks a couple of months ago with a few friends. At the end of the night I went to get my prized hat but it was no longer where I had left it. I spoke with a member of staff and they said to call back the next day to see if anyone had handed it up. However, when I called back and rang over the following week there was no sign of it.

I was pretty pissed off as the hat was of sentimental value, it was a present bought for me by a very good friend in France around 8 years ago, so I was sad to see it go.

Anyway, long story short a buddy of mine was out on the town last weekend and he swears that he saw a guy wearing my hat. He didn't confront him however but I plan on heading back to the same part of town to see if can run into this guy, it's a pretty distinctive hat that wouldn't have been on sale in Ireland so I should have no problem picking it out if I see it. Sad I know, but the hat really is of sentimental value!

I was just wondering where I stand from a legal point of view? I can approach this guy but he is under no obligation to give me the hat back. I don't have a receipt for it, my name isn't written on the tag, I can't prove ownership and he can politely tell me to eff off even though I know for a fact this is my hat. If I take the hat off him then will I be the one breaking the law? The fact that he has had this item for the past few months does it mean that essentially it now belongs to him?

Bit of a weird one but cheers in advance for any advice!

Pat Mustard

Tim76 wrote: »

If I take the hat off him then will I be the one breaking the law? The fact that he has had this item for the past few months does it mean that essentially it now belongs to him?

Mod:

This is a request for legal advice so these questions may not be answered.

Legal advice may not be sought or given or this thread will be shut down.

However, if the rules are observed now and in future, this thread may stay open for legal discussion of the relevant area of law, for the time being.

I would think that the Nemo Dat* rule would be relevant here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet



* Nemo Dat Quod Non Habet (No one gives what he does not have)

Pat Mustard

Also, I would suggest getting hold of a cooperative Garda to go up to him and take the hat back for you.

Kimbot

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Also, I would suggest getting hold of a cooperative Garda to go up to him and take the hat back for you.

Also show pictures to said Gaurd of you wearing hat, if its very distinctive then it may help prove that its your hat.

GM228

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Also, I would suggest getting hold of a cooperative Garda to go up to him and take the hat back for you.

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Samuel T. Cogley

I'd suggest politely approaching the person and explaining that it looks a lot like your stolen hat. Excplain that you have really bad nits or something similar and that you were just a bit worried for his health. :pac:

jcd5971

Aproach the guy in a non confrontational matter preferably during the day in a public place, and explain your situation (name of pub you left it in etc.) could be he picked it up thinking it left and thought nice free hat, and upon healing your take of woe return the hat.

Maybe he will sell it to you if he is less scrupulous ( how much value do you place in getting it back).

And if all else fails and he is a scumbag who definitely stole your hat, the pluck it off his head as you pass him by whilst simultaneously jumping onto the back of your amazing getaway vehicle you have strategicalky placed to make a clean get away. Leaving the millinery pilferer in your wake incredulousy waving his fist in the air harmlessly railing against his fate.


Note
Mods advise not to act on any legal or other advice given here.

Tim76

I guess with no way of proving the hat is mine I'm just relying on his conscience. It's all carrot and no stick.

If i were to simply take the hat of him by force then I think I'm the one that will run foul of the law. Which doesn't sit well with me as it's my damn hat!

lifeandtimes

Tim76 wrote: »

I guess with no way of proving the hat is mine I'm just relying on his conscience. It's all carrot and no stick.

If i were to simply take the hat of him by force then I think I'm the one that will run foul of the law. Which doesn't sit well with me as it's my damn hat!

I won't advocate breaking the law but how would you be breaking the law if the hat is 100% yours what is he going to do if you grab and run, he can hardly report it to the guards now

"Yes guards I'd like to report a hat that came in my possession that I did not buy was stolen off me"

Not gonna happen plus if you have evidence you had it before then you're golden, it's like your car being stolen and you breaking into it and taking it back,you're hardly running foul of the law there, that being said it would be best to be honest with the guy and say it straight up to him and go from there

Peregrinus

Much depends on how he came by the hat.

Your property, when stolen from you, doesn't remain yours forever. If it did, nobody could ever be sure that they owned anything, since how do I know that, e.g. the coffee cup that I bought in a kitchen shop wasn't part of a consignment stolen while in transit from the factor in China, repackaged and sold to a wholesaler who bought in good faith, and eventually resold to the shop that I bought it from?

Basically, if you buy goods in a recognised market, with no reason to suspect their provenance, they're yours. The person from whom they were stolen may have a remedy against the thief. and/or against a receiver of stolen goods who bought them in dodgy circumstances, but not against you.

So if this guy got the hat in a second-hand shop, for instance, it's his now.

Needs Must

Peregrinus wrote:

Basically, if you buy goods in a recognised market, with no reason to suspect their provenance, they're yours. The person from whom they were stolen may have a remedy against the thief. and/or against a receiver of stolen goods who bought them in dodgy circumstances, but not against you.

Peregrinus wrote:

So if this guy got the hat in a second-hand shop, for instance, it's his now.

Incorrect, it's still stolen property.

jcd5971

jcd5971 wrote:

And if all else fails and he is a scumbag who definitely stole your hat, the pluck it off his head as you pass him by whilst simultaneously jumping onto the back of your amazing getaway vehicle you have strategicalky placed to make a clean get away. Leaving the millinery pilferer in your wake incredulousy waving his fist in the air harmlessly railing against his fate.

jcd5971 wrote:

Note Mods advise not to act on any legal or other advice given here.

Apologies I meant that as a witty non serious ending to the post. I wasn't actually advocating stealing someone hat.

GrumpyMe

Peregrinus wrote: »

Much depends on how he came by the hat.
Your property, when stolen from you, doesn't remain yours forever.

So what sort of time limit is there on title?

Peregrinus wrote: »

If it did, nobody could ever be sure that they owned anything, since how do I know that, e.g. the coffee cup that I bought in a kitchen shop wasn't part of a consignment stolen while in transit from the factor in China, repackaged and sold to a wholesaler who bought in good faith, and eventually resold to the shop that I bought it from?

Well with coffee I'd guess you don't retain the evidence for long enough to be prosecuted.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Basically, if you buy goods in a recognised market, with no reason to suspect their provenance, they're yours. The person from whom they were stolen may have a remedy against the thief. and/or against a receiver of stolen goods who bought them in dodgy circumstances, but not against you.

Emmm - being unaware that the circumstances in which you purchased the item was "dodgy" - that does not make the circumstances legit!

Peregrinus wrote: »

So if this guy got the hat in a second-hand shop, for instance, it's his now.

I think the important point is that you could of course make a purchase that you believed was 100% legit - however once you have been informed that the seller had not got title to the goods - you are now aware that you are in possession of stolen property and should return it to the rightful owner.

Failure to do so could see you falling foul of http://tinyurl.com/mhw7clw

...S17.2(b) undertakes, or assists in, its retention,...

My 2c worth anyway...

davo10

Op, let it go. If you confront this guy/accuse him of stealing/grab the hat on a night out when there could be alcohol or worse on board, you are potentially going to get a kicking. It would be a lot easier for him to say he bought it then it would be for him to admit he stole it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Peregrinus wrote: »

Much depends on how he came by the hat.  

Your property, when stolen from you, doesn't remain yours forever.  If it did, nobody could ever be sure that they owned anything, since how do I know that, e.g. the coffee cup that I bought in a kitchen shop wasn't part of a consignment stolen while in transit from the factor in China, repackaged and sold to a wholesaler who bought in good faith, and eventually resold to the shop that I bought it from?

Basically, if you buy goods in a recognised market, with no reason to suspect their provenance, they're yours.  The person from whom they were stolen may have a remedy against the thief. and/or against a receiver of stolen goods who bought them in dodgy circumstances, but not against you.  

So if this guy got the hat in a second-hand shop, for instance, it's his now.

Wasn't Market Overt legislation repealed at some stage.

Peregrinus

OK, I admit it. I was having a brain fart.

Jcd5971 is correct. The general rule is that if you don't have good title to property, you can't pass on a good title to that property to someone else - you can't sell what you don't own. There are a number of exceptions to this general rule, but they mostly depend on the conduct of the true owner - if I give possession of my hat to you in a way that suggests to a third party that you own it and/or have the right to sell it, and that third party buys it from you, I can't subsequently recover the hat from the third party. But obviously that doesn't apply here.

An exception which might be relevant is market overt. If you've got an open, public and legally constituted market, and you buy goods there in good faith, then the goods are yours, even if the person who sold them to you didn't actually own them and/or had no right to sell them. There's no definitive list of which markets in Ireland qualify for the purposes of this rule. In theory, if the OP's hat was now in the possession of someone who said he bought it, you'd have to head off to court to establish whether the place and circumstances in which he bought it amounted to a market overt. In practice it's cheaper just to buy a new hat, which is why these cases never get to court, which is why we don't have authoritative statements about which markets come within the rule and which do not.

For some reason I had it in my head that the market overt rule had been generalised by the courts which, as I say, was a brain fart. Nothing of the kind has happened.

It's been suggested that the rule should be abolished (and it has been abolished in England). But I don't think this has been done in Ireland.

GrumpMe points to Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 s. 17, but I don't think that's relevant. The issue is not whether the current holder of the hat commits an offence by having it, but simply whether he's entitled to keep it. Simply having a hat which was at one point stolen from somebody else is not an offence under s.17. To commit the offence, you have to have acted dishonestly when you acquired the hat, and you have to have known at that time that it was stolen, or been reckless as to whether it was stolen. if you didn't have the necessary mental element at the time you got the hat, you haven't committed the offence, and nothing you learn later on about where the hat came from will change that. You may be obliged to give the hat back to its true owner, and if you fail to do so he may recover it through court action, but you still haven't committed any offence.

evolving_doors

Maybe the hat is more common than you think.
Any chance of posting a pic?
How unusual could this hat be.

Anyway op all you can do is ask.
Follow him to a place where he's settled (pub/shop)... pretend to bump into him by accident and ask him 'hey man where'd ja get the hat I've been looking for one just like it?'.
Who knows ... he might have gotten it from an online store.
Then again you might twig from his reaction that he knows the game is up. If so ... covertly follow him to his next location ... then get another friend to ask him where he got the hat and see if he says anything to his friends when your boy goes away... if he laughs and admits the indiscretion to his friends then game on.
At least you'll know for 100% that it's yours.
If he's not biting keep having friends bumping into him asking where he got the hat untI'll you find out the website/shop address). Rinse and repeat till he gets freaked out and throws the hat away.

Dunno what to do after that... find out where he lives and send him a solicitors letter.
Or tell him you got a witch to put a hex on it... I think there's a forum around here that'll help you out with that.

Or pray to St. Anthony.

Pat Mustard

Peregrinus wrote: »

For some reason I had it in my head that the market overt rule had been generalised by the courts which, as I say, was a brain fart. Nothing of the kind has happened.

It's been suggested that the rule should be abolished (and it has been abolished in England). But I don't think this has been done in Ireland.

The exception to the Nemo Dat rule for sale of goods in market overt is set out in section 22 of the Sale of Goods Act 1893:

22.—(1) Where goods are sold in market overt, according to the usage of the market, the buyer acquires a good title to the goods, provided he buys them in good faith and without notice of any defect or want of title on the part of the seller.

(2) Nothing in this section shall affect the law relating to the sale of horses.

(3) The provisions of this section do not apply to Scotland.

The goods must be bought in good faith and the sale must be in accordance with the usage of the market. I think that there is caselaw which specifies that if the market operates from dawn until dusk, the sale must take place within that period in order to benefit from s.22.

Market overt is just one of the several exceptions to the Nemo Dat rule.

El Tarangu

Peregrinus wrote: »

Much depends on how he came by the hat.

Your property, when stolen from you, doesn't remain yours forever. If it did, nobody could ever be sure that they owned anything, since how do I know that, e.g. the coffee cup that I bought in a kitchen shop wasn't part of a consignment stolen while in transit from the factor in China, repackaged and sold to a wholesaler who bought in good faith, and eventually resold to the shop that I bought it from?

Basically, if you buy goods in a recognised market, with no reason to suspect their provenance, they're yours. The person from whom they were stolen may have a remedy against the thief. and/or against a receiver of stolen goods who bought them in dodgy circumstances, but not against you.

So if this guy got the hat in a second-hand shop, for instance, it's his now.

Ah yes, based on the famous Finders Vs Keepers case.

helimachoptor

OP FWIW I had a similar issue about 18 months ago, my bike had been stolen and it turned up on adverts.

However It was 3 years old and no idea where the receipt was and i hadnt kept track of the serial number.

Went to the local station, showed them the ad, showed them pictures of a stock model and then my bike with some changes that were pretty unique, but as i dint have proof they said they couldnt help, he did advise me to bring a couple of friends if i was going to get it .

In the end i went to a different garda station, the gardai who opened the hatch was a friend of a friend who i'd met a few times.. long story short i got the bike back.. with the help of 4 undercover gardai..

GrumpyMe

helimachoptor wrote: »

with the help of 4 undercover gardai..

"Gardai­ covert" beats "market overt" any day!

Samuel T. Cogley

Atlast a MO thread!

deandean

jcd5971 wrote: »

And if all else fails and he is a scumbag who definitely stole your hat, the pluck it off his head as you pass him by whilst simultaneously jumping onto the back of your amazing getaway vehicle you have strategicalky placed to make a clean get away. Leaving the millinery pilferer in your wake incredulousy waving his fist in the air harmlessly railing against his fate.

Here ya go

NUTLEY BOY

Peregrinus wrote: »

Much depends on how he came by the hat.

Your property, when stolen from you, doesn't remain yours forever. If it did, nobody could ever be sure that they owned anything, since how do I know that, e.g. the coffee cup that I bought in a kitchen shop wasn't part of a consignment stolen while in transit from the factor in China, repackaged and sold to a wholesaler who bought in good faith, and eventually resold to the shop that I bought it from? SNIP SNIP QUOTE]

Would you not lack mens rea or carelessness in relation to the cup ?

NUTLEY BOY

If OP can sing he could approach the miscreant in possession and render the song "where did you get that hat" ? A good opener for negotiations.

Link to lyrics http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/w/wheredidyougetthathat.shtml

Generally, if the new wearer is unaware of the full facts he may not be guilty of theft. If he has been careless about his possession of the property he might have a problem with theft by finding or receiving stolen goods.

However, from a civil perspective, this could well be the tort of conversion. Anyhow, the new wearer has got a defective title to the hat.

Approaching the new owner, without reasonable certainty, might well create unpredictable results that put OP in to the wrong and make him appear like the first one to get out of the car in the warm up to a road rage confrontation.

This has reminded me of school days - name tags on everything or else you effectively lose it.....

davo2001

It's a hat.

Move on with your life.

/Thread.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

davo2001 wrote: »

It's a hat.

Move on with your life.

/Thread.

If that's the correct way to approach this situation, then theft is only theft when an item is above a certain value or holds equal value to strangers also, which is illogical.

The item is not important here, the property has been taken from the OP. Be it a fur coat, or a pencil, theft is theft.

davo2001

Keegan Dazzling Urine wrote: »

If that's the correct way to approach this situation, then theft is only theft when an item is above a certain value or holds equal value to strangers also, which is illogical.

The item is not important here, the property has been taken from the OP. Be it a fur coat, or a pencil, theft is theft.

There is no proof that the hat his friend saw was the OPs hat. If some lunitic on the street came up to me accusing me of stealing his hat months ago I wouldn't be long telling him where to go.

Tim76

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

If OP can sing he could approach the miscreant in possession and render the song "where did you get that hat" ? A good opener for negotiations.

Well I won't be singing "You Can Leave Your Hat On"