2017 UK General Election - 8th June

FrancieBrady

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Exactly. The Dail and Westminster are the legislative assemblies of both nations. No law can bypass them, as it were.

Yes, I believe he is.

But that wouldn't be the first time Bertie lied through his teeth.

If he lied through his teeth as Taoiseach in an official speech at an official State event, you would think that he would have been contradicted by one of the many sides to the agreement. Yeh?

Guess what? He wasn't.

wes

captainspeed wrote: »

A lot of liberal Tories are appalled by the notion of them teaming up with the DUP by the way.

Unless you mean economically liberal, your having a laugh . Tory's have shown there true colours once again with there own "coalition of chaos", but I prefer "coalition of terror" personally.

Jamiekelly

There is going to be another election. May has no support from within her own party, she has no majority mandate and Con MP's latest defence of her is "lukewarm" to say the least. The writing is on the wall.

FrancieBrady

Jamiekelly wrote: »

There is going to be another election. May has no support from within her own party, she has no majority mandate and Con MP's latest defence of her is "lukewarm" to say the least. The writing is on the wall.

Yes, I agree with this.
And the sooner the better.

CMOTDibbler

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If he lied through his teeth as Taoiseach in an official speech at an official State event, you would think that he would have been contradicted by one of the many sides to the agreement. Yeh?

Guess what? He wasn't.

Was anybody going to argue with him on a technicality? He quoted the spirit of the GFA and (according to your quote; for which I don't think you've provided a link) got carried away to the extent of conflating the parliament with the government.

Clearly even after quoting and parsing the relevant section, you still don't understand the implications and meaning of it. Do you think the average punter would understand that either?

Itssoeasy

I see two of the Theresa mays advisers have resigned. It just sounds like it's a mess in Downing Street at the moment.

FrancieBrady

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Was anybody going to argue with him on a technicality? He quoted the spirit of the GFA and (according to your quote; for which I don't think you've provided a link) got carried away to the extent of conflating the parliament with the government.

Clearly even after quoting and parsing the relevant section, you still don't understand the implications and meaning of it. Do you think the average punter would understand that either?

The DUP wouldn't argue about an Irish taoiseach making an official speech like that? :D:D:D

The GFA is an agreement with the British 'parliament' the government of the day cannot amend it without breaking it. You do understand this?

Link to what he said and where he said it: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/britain-has-been-ruled-out-of-the-equation-on-north-says-ahern-1.146434

Itssoeasy

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I see two of the Theresa mays advisers have resigned. It just sounds like it's a mess in Downing Street at the moment.

Proper order, they resigned to avoid being sacked. Heads should roll amongst Tory advisers, the MPs are right to be up in arms.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Seeing the communists/Socialist workers protesting against the DUP. It is like my ultimate dream. DUP must be getting off on this. :D

I think I can safely say that the majority of Ireland's population are delighted that the decent people of Britain are being finally introduced to their fellow citizens - The DUP.

It's a dream come true for many of us.

Jayop

Irishweather wrote: »

Why Ireland? DUP only concerns Northern Ireland, they control nothing concerning you.

Even if Francie doesn't live in the north (I assumed he did) only a self centered selfish person wouldn't be "concerned" with the equal rights being trampled on of their fellow citizens.

FrancieBrady

Jayop wrote: »

Even if Francie doesn't live in the north (I assumed he did) only a self centered selfish person wouldn't be "concerned" with the equal rights being trampled on of their fellow citizens.

I live on the border in the south as it happens, and have many family members in the north.
As if that matters one bit.

I am not Ruth Davidson who is seemingly able to swallow the fact that her so called fellow citizens rights are being trampled on as long as her Tory party are in power.

devnull

Talks now on ITV that Theresa May is looking for a Coalition of Chaos rather than confidence and supply.

Irishweather

Well, that would be a bit of a disaster for us. Would it not?

FrancieBrady

This guys self admitted, non expert twitter feed sums up very clearly the dangerous waters we are in here. Read through it all.

https://twitter.com/jackbern23/status/873278830609301509

wes

If things go wrong in the North, its on the Tory's, Dup and Brexiters in general. Foolish people who love to play with fire, for no good reason.

LeinsterDub

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09/ruth-davidson-planning-scottish-tory-breakaway-challenges-theresa/

Interesting development in Scotland.

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

They are the same party and will be subject to the Tory HoC whip. The Tories in Scotland have cultivated a 'separate' party as they did not want to be scruntinised on what the Tories were doing in Westminster during the various elections in Scotland

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

They are following the same policy as they are the same party

Well, they follow the same policies for the UK General Election, but how much say does Theresa May have in their manifesto for the Scottish Parliament elections? Who is the leader of those MPs just elected? They are part of the Scottish Conservatives, who is lead by Ruth Davidson, but Theresa May is head of the Conservatives Party that leads the Commons, so who do they report to?

A Little Pony wrote: »

Labour lost the election, Jeremy Corbyn is not Prime Minister. Labour have no power to make changes. Once the delusion and dust settles in a few days reality will hit many in Labour.

Well Theresa May seems to have lost the support of her party and its odds on that a new leader will be installed. So we are back at the same situation as 12 months ago, where you have a leader that has no mandate from the electorate. So should there be another election? I believe that Labour will get more support if they have more time to get their message across. People are tired of being told that they should just trust someone because it will be better.

They want a plan and Labour has a plan. Whether that plan will succeed or not is another question, but it is better than the Tory plan of continuing with what they have done for the past 7 years as its clear this isn't what people want. The arrogance of the Conservatives lost them the majority they had, can they really turn it around if they trust someone like Lynton Crosby and his politics of fear?

A Dub in Glasgo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09/ruth-davidson-planning-scottish-tory-breakaway-challenges-theresa/

Interesting development in Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40232374

'Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has dismissed reports that Scots Tories might "break away" from the main UK party.

She tweeted that she fought a leadership campaign opposing the idea of a separate organisation in Scotland. '

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

Well, they follow the same policies for the UK General Election, but how much say does Theresa May have in their manifesto for the Scottish Parliament elections? Who is the leader of those MPs just elected? They are part of the Scottish Conservatives, who is lead by Ruth Davidson, but Theresa May is head of the Conservatives Party that leads the Commons, so who do they report to?

This was a UK GE therefore the leader of those MPs is the same leader as all the other Tory MPs ie May. They will be subject to the HoC Tory whip. There is no separate party

LeinsterDub

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40232374

'Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has dismissed reports that Scots Tories might "break away" from the main UK party.

She tweeted that she fought a leadership campaign opposing the idea of a separate organisation in Scotland. '

Or not so many rumours and counter rumours. Strong and stable indeed.

A Dub in Glasgo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Or not so many rumours and counter rumours. Strong and stable indeed.

Well, it would quite ironic if Davidson wanted independence because she does not think the direction taken in London is the best for Scotland*






* political party independence rather than an independent nation!

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This was a UK GE therefore the leader of those MPs is the same leader as all the other Tory MPs ie May. They will be subject to the HoC Tory whip. There is no separate party

They did have the same manifesto, but it seems the Telegraph is stating that the campaign run in Scotland was more on local issues than general UK issues.

Would you agree that the Scottish MPs in the Conservative Party will have different outlook than the other MP's from England though? Do we really expect them to follow the government a policy will be harmful to Scotland?

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

They did have the same manifesto, but it seems the Telegraph is stating that the campaign run in Scotland was more on local issues than general UK issues.

Would you agree that the Scottish MPs in the Conservative Party will have different outlook than the other MP's from England though? Do we really expect them to follow the government a policy will be harmful to Scotland?

The Tory campaign in Scotland was anti Indyref2 and anti SNP - nothing about Brexit or Tory polices

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Well, it would quite ironic if Davidson wanted independence because she does not think the direction taken in London is the best for Scotland*






* political party independence rather than an independent nation!

Seems like she wants her cake and she wants to eat it. She knows voters in Scotland will not look favourably on the DUP having a say when they run contrary to their own values so she wants to be able to oppose the English Conservative Party, yet she knows she is actually asking for independence.

Like you say it is ironic. It is very easy to be in opposition and always have to say no. Now her party will have a say in how the UK is run, those 13 MPs is enough to stop new policies in the commons that voters in Scotland may not agree with. So will they follow the whip or will they follow their voters?

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Tory campaign in Scotland was anti Indyref2 and anti SNP - nothing about Brexit or Tory polices

Which backs up the Telegraph story. They are Conservatives in name only. Their policies are different and their outlook is different to the main party, or do I have that wrong?

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

Which backs up the Telegraph story. They are Conservatives in name only. Their policies are different and their outlook is different to the main party, or do I have that wrong?

They ran a staunch unionist campaign by appealing to the DUP type elements in Scotland in a mock independence referendum. Their policies are the same, they just did not want to campaign on the back of them as they might get less votes and come under scrutiny for the actions of the Tory government

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

They ran a staunch unionist campaign by appealing to the DUP type elements in Scotland in a mock independence referendum. Their policies are the same, they just did not want to campaign on the back of them as they might get less votes and come under scrutiny for the actions of the Tory government

I would guess the appetite for another independence referendum wasn't there and they took advantage of that. I am interested to follow what those MP's will do with their own votes in the commons. If they do follow the same policies as the Tories in the next election there is no hiding from that. Especially as those MP's have enough votes to stop what the government wants to do. Otherwise in the next election they will be shown as nothing more than just English Tories disguised as Scottish MP's.

If, and a big IF, the SNP can forget about independence and reassure the electorate that its not on their radar in the short/medium term they can easily win back half of those lost seats. They should just concentrate on doing their own jobs in running the Scottish government, their goal of an independent Scotland will be helped if they are running the country properly.

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

I would guess the appetite for another independence referendum wasn't there and they took advantage of that. I am interested to follow what those MP's will do with their own votes in the commons. If they do follow the same policies as the Tories in the next election there is no hiding from that. Especially as those MP's have enough votes to stop what the government wants to do. Otherwise in the next election they will be shown as nothing more than just English Tories disguised as Scottish MP's.

If, and a big IF, the SNP can forget about independence and reassure the electorate that its not on their radar in the short/medium term they can easily win back half of those lost seats. They should just concentrate on doing their own jobs in running the Scottish government, their goal of an independent Scotland will be helped if they are running the country properly.

The Tories had 1 MP in Scotland from the 2015 election and here is his voting record

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/40964

snowflaker

Love this from the New Yorker

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn?utm_campaign=digest&utm_medium=email&utm_source=app

Persephone kindness

Irishweather wrote: »

Well, that would be a bit of a disaster for us. Would it not?

The north has always affected us. Economically socially politically. We are more stable when they are. We are safer when they are stable. And we want them to be stable. We want equal rights for both sides up there.

WES
If things go wrong in the North, its on the Tory's, Dup and Brexiters in general. Foolish people who love to play with fire, for no good reason.

It's more than that...unhappiness with the recession and austerity. That too is playing with fire. You are correct though. The alt right has really messed it up. For no reason as no personality involved in UKIP has benefited.

bilston

I'm no DUP fan but I'm pretty sure they'll be pretty pragmatic in what they want in return from the Tories. It will be fiscal rather than social issues they will look at and that will benefit everyone in NI. Basically they will demand more money for NI and try to ensure there is no hard border.

I still can't see this lasting too long anyway. At best 2 years when the Brexit negotiations will need to be voted on and so just don't see how May will appease everyone in her party given the range of views. Even then I wouldn't be surprised if there is a other election before then, maybe as soon as the Autumn.

Persephone kindness

bilston wrote: »

I'm no DUP fan but I'm pretty sure they'll be pretty pragmatic in what they want in return from the Tories. It will be fiscal rather than social issues they will look at and that will benefit everyone in NI. Basically they will demand more money for NI and try to ensure there is no hard border.

I still can't see this lasting too long anyway. At best 2 years when the Brexit negotiations will need to be voted on and so just don't see how May will appease everyone in her party given the range of views. Even then I wouldn't be surprised if there is a other election before then, maybe as soon as the Autumn.

Already not true ..

Chilling’ DUP deal raises prospect of change to UK abortion law

Opposition denounces ‘coalition of cruelty’ as MP mentions possibility of lowering time limits

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/chilling-dup-deal-raises-prospect-of-change-to-uk-abortion-law-1.3115505?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Fuk%2Fchilling-dup-deal-raises-prospect-of-change-to-uk-abortion-law-1.3115505

There are women awaiting trial in the north for abortion. And I know we are no better but they do want change.

And remember.... MAY IS DESPERATE.

bilston

Persephone kindness wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

I'm no DUP fan but I'm pretty sure they'll be pretty pragmatic in what they want in return from the Tories. It will be fiscal rather than social issues they will look at and that will benefit everyone in NI. Basically they will demand more money for NI and try to ensure there is no hard border.

I still can't see this lasting too long anyway. At best 2 years when the Brexit negotiations will need to be voted on and so just don't see how May will appease everyone in her party given the range of views. Even then I wouldn't be surprised if there is a other election before then, maybe as soon as the Autumn.

Already not true ..

Chilling’ DUP deal raises prospect of change to UK abortion law

Opposition denounces ‘coalition of cruelty’ as MP mentions possibility of lowering time limits

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/chilling-dup-deal-raises-prospect-of-change-to-uk-abortion-law-1.3115505?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Fuk%2Fchilling-dup-deal-raises-prospect-of-change-to-uk-abortion-law-1.3115505

There are women awaiting trial in the north for abortion. And I know we are no better but they do want change.

And remember.... MAY IS DESPERATE.

And how on earth do the DUP think they could ever push anything like that through Parliament? There is no chance whatsoever that anything like that would be passed by the HoC. People should stop scaremongering.

Edit - actually reading that link I see no evidence at all that the DUP are going to try anything like that. The only people bringing it up are opposition MPs and a Tory MP rather than anyone from the DUP.

solodeogloria

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Already not true ..



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/chilling-dup-deal-raises-prospect-of-change-to-uk-abortion-law-1.3115505?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Fuk%2Fchilling-dup-deal-raises-prospect-of-change-to-uk-abortion-law-1.3115505

There are women awaiting trial in the north for abortion. And I know we are no better but they do want change.

And remember.... MAY IS DESPERATE.

Good evening,

This isn't the best thread to have an abortion discussion.

I don't have any issue with reducing the abortion limit. I think fear mongering about their pro-life views or that a lot subscribe to evangelical Protestantism is thinly veiled intolerance.

Millions of people in the UK subscribe to evangelical Protestantism and thousands of people in the Republic of Ireland do. I personally am an evangelical Christian and I'm not ashamed of this.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

FrancieBrady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening,

This isn't the best thread to have an abortion discussion.

I don't have any issue with reducing the abortion limit. I think fear mongering about their pro-life views or that a lot subscribe to evangelical Protestantism is thinly veiled intolerance.

Millions of people in the UK subscribe to evangelical Protestantism and thousands of people in the Republic of Ireland do. I personally am an evangelical Christian and I'm not ashamed of this.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Millions of people are not discriminating or forcing their relgious views from government.

I don't care what your views on abortion are by the way, you are entitled to them but.

solodeogloria

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Millions of people are not discriminating or forcing their relgious views from government.

I don't care what your views on abortion are by the way, you are entitled to them but.

Good evening,

My point is - I suspect quite a large number of evangelical Christians would support legislation to better protect the unborn.

It is fine to disagree with the DUP on their position, but it comes from a good motivation that many others would agree with.

The concerns I have with the DUP are to do with questions over the constitutional nature of Northern Ireland and not to do with abortion or the religious beliefs of some of it's MP's.

That is where it becomes a form of intolerance in my view. People are entitled to see pro-life legislation as a form of social justice, even if you personally disagree.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Persephone kindness

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening,

This isn't the best thread to have an abortion discussion.

I don't have any issue with reducing the abortion limit. I think fear mongering about their pro-life views or that a lot subscribe to evangelical Protestantism is thinly veiled intolerance.

Millions of people in the UK subscribe to evangelical Protestantism and thousands of people in the Republic of Ireland do. I personally am an evangelical Christian and I'm not ashamed of this.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Well let us separate the two subjects and use it as an example where the DUP is seeking to influence policy. Anyone who thinks they are not going to do anything in power is naive.

People who voted for Tories. Did not vote for these social policies. They voted for a party who brought in gay marriage. Not one very against it. the DUP - has only 0.91% of the national vote -they consider climate change to be a con.

solodeogloria

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Well let us separate the two subjects and use it as an example where the DUP is seeking to influence policy. Anyone who thinks they are not going to do anything in power is naive.

People who voted for Tories. Did not vote for these social policies. They voted for a party who brought in gay marriage. Not one very against it.

Good evening,

They aren't separate. Moreover, I don't consider anything sinister about them seeking this. This is a potential part of a negotiation. This is the problem of a hung parliament and seeking a coalition.

I'm fairly confident that parliament will reject such legislation if it is put forward, but it is their entitlement to put reducing the limit forward and it doesn't make them the devil. That's where the language becomes intolerant. If you disagree, that's totally fair enough, but it is with good intentions on their part.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

FrancieBrady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening,

My point is - I suspect quite a large number of evangelical Christians would support legislation to better protect the unborn.

It is fine to disagree with the DUP on their position, but it comes from a good motivation that many others would agree with.

The concerns I have with the DUP are to do with questions over the constitutional nature of Northern Ireland and not to do with abortion or the religious beliefs of some of it's MP's.

That is where it becomes a form of intolerance in my view. People are entitled to see pro-life legislation as a form of social justice, even if you personally disagree.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The DUP are, for good or not, enforcing their religious views on others by using their government position (or by refusing to enact)

Do what ever you want privately, do not enforce your religious views on me.

devnull

DUP have confirmed an agreement in principle on a confidence and supply basis.

Persephone kindness

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening,


The concerns I have with the DUP are to do with questions over the constitutional nature of Northern Ireland

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

That is open to interpretation. We will have to see.

Persephone kindness

devnull wrote: »

DUP have confirmed an agreement in principle on a confidence and supply basis.

May is seeking a formal coalition though. But this is what has so far been agreed. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-conservative-dup-coalition-formal-cabinet-positions-northern-irish-mps-democratic-a7783741.html

Government Chief Whip in Belfast for discussions which include the possibility of formal coalition

I don't think an agreement based on confidence and supply would have a chance of lasting.

Persephone kindness

If they get a formal coalition agreement that would mean the DUP would get some cabinet positions for some members.

A Little Pony

Apparently demanding cuts to stop. #newsnight

lawred2

Persephone kindness wrote: »

May is seeking a formal coalition though. But this is what has so far been agreed. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-conservative-dup-coalition-formal-cabinet-positions-northern-irish-mps-democratic-a7783741.html

She has totally lost every single one of her marbles..

Her judgement is so impaired at this stage as to be dangerous

Persephone kindness

lawred2 wrote: »

She has totally lost every single one of her marbles..

Her judgement is so impaired at this stage as to be dangerous

I agree an agreement based on confidence and supply over a formal coalition would bi pass the constitutional issue and the GDA issue. A formal coalition would give pause.

I understand that it would be less likely to last though. And if the DUP had cabinet positions it would be more likely to hold. But considering the members and some of their personalities and quotes ..it would be ..well 'interesting', to say the least.

FrancieBrady

Fascinating, in a can't look away sense.
I said long ago that we are watching the slow demise of the union. I didn't think it would be quite as bumpy a ride as this.
They are doomed to making the wrong move after wrong move.

dogbert27

lawred2 wrote: »

She has totally lost every single one of her marbles..

Her judgement is so impaired at this stage as to be dangerous

Been watching this unfold since Thursday and the only thing that came to mind was Juncker's comment after meeting her at Downing Street "She lives in a different galaxy".

The EU will wipe the floor with them within now a less than 2 year negotiation.

Persephone kindness

I am getting my head around the fact she thinks DUP members getting cabinet positions will aid Brexit negotiations with Brussels. Knowing personalities in the DUP ...i am baffled she thinks this. Although they do ave negotiating experience. Mostly attained through making the other side wait...which is not an option in this.

Persephone kindness

lawred2 wrote: »

What of any merit have the DUP ever negotiated?

They successfully stalled the GDA for a bit by opposing it...:pac: