2017 UK General Election - 8th June

Itssoeasy

Persephone kindness wrote: »

I am getting my head around the fact she thinks DUP members getting cabinet positions will aid Brexit negotiations with Brussels. Knowing personalities in the DUP ...i am baffled she thinks this. Although they do ave negotiating experience. Mostly attained through making the other side wait...which is not an option in this.

She wants dup members as part of the brexit negotiations ? The eu lads are senior hurlers compared to the dup lads. If that's true then Theresa May is losing it.

bilston

A Little Pony wrote: »

Apparently demanding cuts to stop. #newsnight

Yeah...this is the thing...all this scaremongering when in reality they will have no impact upon social policy, anyone who thinks they will just doesn't understand how the House of Commons works...what they will try and achieve is more money for NI and no return to a hard border...in my experience the DUP have a lot more in common with Labour economic policy than the Tories...I think everyone in NI will benefit from the Duo's new position.

Persephone kindness

Itssoeasy wrote: »

She wants dup members as part of the brexit negotiations ?

I don't know that.

Persephone kindness

bilston wrote: »

Yeah...this is the thing...all this scaremongering when in reality they will have no impact upon social policy, anyone who thinks they will just doesn't understand how the House of Commons works...what they will try and achieve is more money for NI and no return to a hard border...in my experience the DUP have a lot more in common with Labour economic policy than the Tories...I think everyone in NI will benefit from the Duo's new position.

They favor low taxation ...they would be center right. This is not a good situation. They are not of good character and that was the reason stormont collapsed.

devnull

What Theresa May wants doesn't matter one bit.

She has no authority

No Authority in her own party
No Authority in the country
No Authority in Brexit Talks

Her backbenchers call the shots.

First Up

Persephone kindness wrote:

If they get a formal coalition agreement that would mean the DUP would get some cabinet positions for some members.

I'd be interested to see how that sits with NI's devolved government and the NI Assembly.

Leonard Hofstadter

devnull wrote: »

What Theresa May wants doesn't matter one bit.

She has no authority

No Authority in her own party
No Authority in the country
No Authority in Brexit Talks

Her backbenchers call the shots.

Indeed, the Remain MPs (and most notably, Ruth Davidson) have been saying they do not want the kind of extreme Brexit May wanted. That is undoubtedly a good thing for the UK, Ireland and the EU.

LeinsterDub

captainspeed wrote: »

Indeed, the Remain MPs (and most notably, Ruth Davidson) have been saying they do not want the kind of extreme Brexit May wanted. That is undoubtedly a good thing for the UK, Ireland and the EU.

What purpose does a soft brexit serve? Having to follow the rules (signal market, ecj, movement of people) of the club with ability to affect the rule making process?

lawred2

captainspeed wrote: »

Indeed, the Remain MPs (and most notably, Ruth Davidson) have been saying they do not want the kind of extreme Brexit May wanted. That is undoubtedly a good thing for the UK, Ireland and the EU.

It largely isn't really up to what UK politicians want any longer though is it?

Obviously it would help to have a competent realist in place doing the negotiations but Britain isn't exactly holding a lot of cards at the moment..

A Dub in Glasgo

captainspeed wrote: »

Indeed, the Remain MPs (and most notably, Ruth Davidson) have been saying they do not want the kind of extreme Brexit May wanted.

Ruth Davidson has been parrotting London Tory Brexit since the referendum

Leonard Hofstadter

lawred2 wrote: »

It largely isn't really up to what UK politicians want any longer though is it?

Obviously it would help to have a competent realist in place doing the negotiations but Britain isn't exactly holding a lot of cards at the moment..

No but neither Labour nor the Tories explicitly committed to leaving the customs union (they only committed to leaving the single market, which is not the same thing), so of course there is scope for the UK to stay in the customs union. I think it is more likely because there are plenty of Remain MPs in Parliament and the DUP does not share May's belief that no deal is better than a bad deal.

whatstherush

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What purpose does a soft brexit serve? Having to follow the rules (signal market, ecj, movement of people) of the club with ability to affect the rule making process?

None but they were sold a land of unicorns and now they realize they're getting a ****e sandwich with hard brexit, so it's all that's left for them. Even farage is openly supporting the Norway option(though I know he supported before actually ref), but went full metal brexit after the result.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/873593541938642944

Fr Tod Umptious

A Little Pony wrote: »

Apparently demanding cuts to stop. #newsnight

So SF will be happy then.

Capt'n Midnight

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What purpose does a soft brexit serve? Having to follow the rules (signal market, ecj, movement of people) of the club with ability to affect the rule making process?

Do you know how much air fares to the UK used to be before EU deregulation ? (Hint add a zero to the pre-tax price.)
And what that would do to tourism ?

Lots of domino effects from Brexit that kick in automatically if a deal isn't done.
Border controls, visa's , E111 health cards, product regulation and testing, TIR on trucks. Lots and lots of little things.

Remember Brexit hasn't even happened yet.

LeinsterDub

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Do you know how much air fares to the UK used to be before EU deregulation ? (Hint add a zero to the pre-tax price.)
And what that would do to tourism ?

Lots of domino effects from Brexit that kick in automatically if a deal isn't done.
Border controls, visa's , E111 health cards, product regulation and testing, TIR on trucks. Lots and lots of little things.

Remember Brexit hasn't even happened yet.

I understand that. My point was at least with a hard Brexit they could creditability claim to have won sovereignty back from the EU even if/when it turns out to be economic suicide. What can be said for a soft brexit? We've left the club lads! But we still have to follow most of the rules and pay dues

lawred2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm understand that. My point was at least with a hard Brexit they could creditability claim to have won sovereignty back from the EU even if/when it turns out to be economic suicide. What can be said for a soft brexit? We've left the club lads! But we still have to follow most of the rules and may dues

what use is this claim to sovereignty if your economy is dead..

Rather foolhardy stuff but then the Tories have proven themselves to be utterly foolhardy of late

Enzokk

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm understand that. My point was at least with a hard Brexit they could creditability claim to have won sovereignty back from the EU even if/when it turns out to be economic suicide. What can be said for a soft brexit? We've left the club lads! But we still have to follow most of the rules and may dues

I think that whoever is in charge of the negotiations will have a impossible task. There will still be that 45%-55% of the population that want to take back "control". If you saw the reactions to Jeremy Corbyn on Question Time and just the total misinformation that people believe about him and the Labour Party's position, you will still have people that believe its all the EU's fault.

I mean people still believe the lies The Sun printed in 1989 about Hillsborough, this after its been refuted once by Lord Taylor, by the HIP and then finally by a new coroner, people still believe what The Sun told them. So I guess you reap what you sow and the reason the country is so divided is because people believe what the tabloids print, and the tabloids want a divided country. Its good business for them.

devnull

Mail tomorrow claiming that Boris is to launch a leadership bid.

Elsewhere I just saw one of May's backbenchers say that: 'Only thing missing from our manifesto was compulsory euthanasia for over 70s'

Ouch

Dyr

devnull wrote: »

Mail tomorrow claiming that Boris is to launch a leadership bid.

Elsewhere I just saw one of May's backbenchers say that: 'Only thing missing from our manifesto was compulsory euthanasia for over 70s'

Ouch

If it was amended it to "over 70s in council housing" he'd be okay with it

Enzokk

devnull wrote: »

Mail tomorrow claiming that Boris is to launch a leadership bid.

So one year after the Brexit vote we will be in a position where the majority party will have a leader that has no mandate from the people once again and they will lead the most important negotiations in a generation. They spent £130m to be in a worse position than a year ago.

lawred2

Enzokk wrote: »

So one year after the Brexit vote we will be in a position where the majority party will have a leader that has no mandate from the people once again and they will lead the most important negotiations in a generation. They spent £130m to be in a worse position than a year ago.

wut?

May's disastrous campaign cost the Tories £130m?

A Dub in Glasgo

lawred2 wrote: »

wut?

May's disastrous campaign cost the Tories £130m?

Cost to the taxpayer

lawred2

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Cost to the taxpayer

even worse

LeinsterDub

lawred2 wrote: »

even worse

Maybe they could do like the lotto and when you vote you can vote in the next 3 elections coming in the next few years

devnull

Such a shambles.

DUP say no agreement and the Tories jumped the gun by saying there was.

Enzokk

devnull wrote: »

Such a shambles.

DUP say no agreement and the Tories jumped the gun by saying there was.

It is a shambles. How did she go to the Queen to ask permission to form a government if she doesn't have the required votes for a majority? What will she do if the deal with the DUP doesn't work out due to unreasonable demands or protest from within her party at the DUP partnership?

I think the Tories are acutely aware that if they have to have another election the electorate may just punish them for this shambles and will vote for Labour as a protest.

Leonard Hofstadter

devnull wrote: »

Such a shambles.

DUP say no agreement and the Tories jumped the gun by saying there was.

Unbelievable stuff. Davidson says she has her reassurances on LGBT+ rights (thankfully) so that means no change for mainland UK. She's also demanding a roll back on a hard Brexit, which is also a very good thing. Keeping Britain in the customs union is clearly a good thing not only for the UK but especially Ireland as it means there won't be a need for a hard border on the island and free trade will continue between Ireland and the UK.

captainspeed

captainspeed wrote: »

Unbelievable stuff. Davidson says she has her reassurances on LGBT+ rights (thankfully) so that means no change for mainland UK. She's also demanding a roll back on a hard Brexit, which is also a very good thing. Keeping Britain in the customs union is clearly a good thing not only for the UK but especially Ireland as it means there won't be a need for a hard border on the island and free trade will continue between Ireland and the UK.

Presume the DUP won't have any issues with any of those assurances, they are not exactly seeking to criminalise homosexuality across Britain, they oppose same sex marriage in NI. And Foster has already spoken of their wish for a soft Brexit. Not seeing the huge clash. Sure, Davidson may dislike the personal views of some of the DUP, but she's a Tory, she can probably see those who dislike homosexuals by just looking around the room at any Tory get together.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Presume the DUP won't have any issues with any of those assurances, they are not exactly seeking to criminalise homosexuality across Britain, they oppose same sex marriage in NI. And Foster has already spoken of their wish for a soft Brexit. Not seeing the huge clash. Sure, Davidson may dislike the personal views of some of the DUP, but she's a Tory, she can probably see those who dislike homosexuals by just looking around the room at any Tory get together.

So a Tory doesn't give a damn that her so called fellow citizens are being actively discriminated against as long as she gets to the trough.

Outstanding morals there, quelle suprise. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So a Tory doesn't give a damn that her so called fellow citizens are being actively discriminated against as long as she gets to the trough.

Outstanding morals there, quelle suprise. :rolleyes:

I can't presume to speak for her, so can't speak of her morality.

devnull

Deleted User wrote: »

Presume the DUP won't have any issues with any of those assurances, they are not exactly seeking to criminalise homosexuality across Britain, they oppose same sex marriage in NI. And Foster has already spoken of their wish for a soft Brexit. Not seeing the huge clash. Sure, Davidson may dislike the personal views of some of the DUP, but she's a Tory, she can probably see those who dislike homosexuals by just looking around the room at any Tory get together.

Indeed, but the Tory party putting a statement out that a deal was agreed in principle only then for the DUP to come out and say no deal has been agreed suggests that the Tory Party are trying to put pressure on the DUP to agree a deal quickly because the MayBot knows the longer the deal takes the more pressure she will come under.

George Osborne is already putting the boot in this morning, on the BBC he was saying that she is a dead woman walking and is on death row with Boris Johnson in permanent leadership challenge mode and the Evening Standard will be attacking her from all angles.

He's very smug - considering the history between those two I guess he is loving every minute of this.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't presume to speak for her, so can't speak of her morality.

If you can consign some of your fellow citizens to live in continued discrimination in a quest for power, I think you can speak volumes about morals and conscience.

A Dub in Glasgo

Davidson up to her usual when challenged - it is either deflect, walk away or Ms. Angry face

https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/873631497340809217

Enzokk

I am extremely concerned about the news that the DUP haven't agreed to a deal with the Tories. While it is an already dangerous situation for a party from NI to get involved with the UK Government as it puts the question of the said government staying neutral in doubt. The fact that a quick agreement was reached, while not the ideal situation, it was the best of the worst options on the table.

The fact that there will now have to be negotiations will lead more credence to fears that the DUP will have more demands from the Conservatives to help them pass their budgets and keep the government running. It will seem like it will be more than a mere supply and confidence agreement. To have some sort of calm in what could be a volatile situation the agreement will need to be open and published to the public to see what was offered and what was agreed. Anything else will just lead to chaos in NI.

Back in the UK, the Tories are in such a bad situation. They are going to be hammered whatever they do. If they go with the DUP they will have the Scottish Conservatives sniping from the back benches unless the Scottish Conservatives want to be seen as cozying up to homophobes to cling to power. They could depose Theresa May but then the new leader will be in the same situation that she found herself in 12 months ago, only they will have to contend with a stronger Jeremy Corbyn and Labour Party that will know if they stay united they may just be in power at the next election.

So their choice is to either go for another election and be almost guaranteed to lose it to Labour, or stay with Theresa May who has no confidence from either her own party or the country. Or they could choose another leader, waste more time in the Brexit negotiations and just upset the electorate more in a critical time for the UK and its future.

A shambles doesn't even begin to explain what is happening right now.

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Davidson up to her usual when challenged - it is either deflect, walk away or Ms. Angry face

Her answer was good as well, it made sense and she deflected quite well but still answered the question. Just walking away like that was the mistake and will make her seem like she doesn't want to discuss the difficult questions. That's not a great look for a party leader.

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

A shambles doesn't even begin to explain what is happening right now.

A shambles it certainly is and one in which is entirely the fault of the Tories.... they are not interested in what is best for the UK or Europe for that matter. They are only interested in what is best for self. To think there were cheerleaders for this 'brilliant move' by May

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

A shambles it certainly is and one in which is entirely the fault of the Tories.... they are not interested in what is best for the UK or Europe for that matter. They are only interested in what is best for self. To think there were cheerleaders for this 'brilliant move' by May

To be honest I think most people would have agreed with the decision. The problem is that the decisions by the party doomed them, no proper manifesto, only putting out slogans that didn't connect with people. Couple that with the disaster that is Theresa May and its just their comeuppance that they are stuck with their lot right now.

Calina

Enzokk wrote: »

To be honest I think most people would have agreed with the decision. The problem is that the decisions by the party doomed them, no proper manifesto, only putting out slogans that didn't connect with people. Couple that with the disaster that is Theresa May and its just their comeuppance that they are stuck with their lot right now.

Personal view is that they were unwise to have an election. I know there were people on twitter at the time saying given the polling figures she'd be mad not to. But that still didn't suggest it was a good decision. Many of those disadvantages applied to May as well - it's not like Corbyn was universally loved either and his figures were until yesterday at least still worse than May's/

bilston

Calling the election wasn't the issue. Proposing a policy were you target your key cohort of voters (ie older voters) was stupid. That and the fact that Corbyn managed to mobilise the young in a way not seen in a long time.

Corbyn shouldn't be too cock a hoop either. He lost the election. The Tories got a lot more seats and a lot more votes. That seems to have been lost in all of this and the Tories did it with a robot as leader armed with a dreadful manifesto.

Also regarding his future. He is 68, and while there is a decent chance there will be an election much sooner, if this government lasts 5 years he will be 73 by the time the next election comes around. I'd be interested to know how he sees his future.

Nody

Enzokk wrote: »

To be honest I think most people would have agreed with the decision. The problem is that the decisions by the party doomed them, no proper manifesto, only putting out slogans that didn't connect with people. Couple that with the disaster that is Theresa May and its just their comeuppance that they are stuck with their lot right now.

From what I recall May was the last one in the cabinet to agree to calling the election; it was not something she pushed for (let's face it she's a cowards who'd never dare to take the risk of an election unless required on her own). Having said that the time to call it was right based on the polls but the lack of preparation, the campaign plan and the fact they had an abysmal leader who could not campaign nor debate herself out of a wet paper bag should have caused them not do or at the very least delay and prepare better for the mandatory election instead.

The only reason to hold it beyond the polls was as well to get more manoeuvring room with the brexit wing of the party but seeing where they were going (and that would only matter for a more soft brexit which May appeared to want the hardest of hard Brexits possible) since any later would cause even more disruption to the negotiations.

Capt'n Midnight

bilston wrote: »

Also regarding his future. He is 68, and while there is a decent chance there will be an election much sooner, if this government lasts 5 years he will be 73 by the time the next election comes around. I'd be interested to know how he sees his future.

He has restored the Labour party to the left for the foreseeable future.

So even if he doesn't get in , fellow travellers will.

A Little Pony

I have read some absolutely shocking ignorance on Twitter regarding NI politics. The complete lack of just historical facts regarding the DUP founding, someone has said you had IRA members in the DUP, someone said the DUP came out of the Ulster Resistance. 

The school system in England has a lot to answer for that you have so many morons in England who don't have a clue about the politics of the whole of the UK. I don't agree with the DUP stance on gay marriage or the horrific idea of creationism.

But they do have the seats to prop up the Tories and I ask anyone who thinks it is a bad idea, what would you do? Theresa May actually wants to resign but the Brexit negotiations start a few days. Unless you think the negotiations should be delayed for a bit, a Tory leadership starts and then a call of a general election.

This option might give her and the government a few months to settle things down and then maybe a leadership challenge can happen.

Professor Moriarty

A Little Pony wrote: »

I have read some absolutely shocking ignorance on Twitter regarding NI politics. The complete lack of just historical facts regarding the DUP founding, someone has said you had IRA members in the DUP, someone said the DUP came out of the Ulster Resistance. 

The school system in England has a lot to answer for that you have so many morons in England who don't have a clue about the politics of the whole of the UK. I don't agree with the DUP stance on gay marriage or the horrific idea of creationism.

But they do have the seats to prop up the Tories and I ask anyone who thinks it is a bad idea, what would you do? Theresa May actually wants to resign but the Brexit negotiations start a few days. Unless you think the negotiations should be delayed for a bit, a Tory leadership starts and then a call of a general election.

This option might give her and the government a few months to settle things down and then maybe a leadership challenge can happen.

Here's a few facts about the DUP:

They want the death penalty brought back.
They are against all abortion.
They are against gay marriage.
Many of their members believe that homosexuality is wrong. A current DUP MP has called gay people 'disgusting'. Their Health minister believes that gay people are more likely to abuse children.
Many of their members and some MPS believe in creationism.
Many of their members and some MPs do not believe in climate change.

A Little Pony

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I have read some absolutely shocking ignorance on Twitter regarding NI politics. The complete lack of just historical facts regarding the DUP founding, someone has said you had IRA members in the DUP, someone said the DUP came out of the Ulster Resistance. 

The school system in England has a lot to answer for that you have so many morons in England who don't have a clue about the politics of the whole of the UK. I don't agree with the DUP stance on gay marriage or the horrific idea of creationism.

But they do have the seats to prop up the Tories and I ask anyone who thinks it is a bad idea, what would you do? Theresa May actually wants to resign but the Brexit negotiations start a few days. Unless you think the negotiations should be delayed for a bit, a Tory leadership starts and then a call of a general election.

This option might give her and the government a few months to settle things down and then maybe a leadership challenge can happen.

Here's a few facts about the DUP:

They want the death penalty brought back.
They are against all abortion.
They are against gay marriage.
Many of their members believe that homosexuality is wrong. A current DUP MP has called gay people 'disgusting'. Their Health minister believes that gay people are more likely to abuse children.
Many of their members and some MPS believe in creationism.
Many of their members and some MPs do not believe in climate change.

What is the point you are making? I am aware of the beliefs some of them within the DUP have. They still have a huge mandate from a lot of people in Northern Ireland. But please don't condone people getting facts wrong about the most basic stuff.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

At least Britain is getting a good and proper look at what their 'loyal' Irish brothers and sisters are really all about in the north of this island.

A backward, bigoted, homophobic, creationist supporting, terrorist associating, climate change denying party that has sectarianism at its core.

They have managed to become the antithesis of what the Britain of today stands for.

The UK is looking down the barrel of an economic Armageddon and you'll have 10 DUP MP's holding the balance of power. What are the chances that their first demand will be a list of marches and the routes they want to take. You actually couldn't make it up.

"Save Ulster from Sodomy" :rolleyes:

Professor Moriarty

A Little Pony wrote: »

What is the point you are making? I am aware of the beliefs some of them within the DUP have. They still have a huge mandate from a lot of people in Northern Ireland. But please don't condone people getting facts wrong about the most basic stuff.

Helping you inform other posters about the facts. Facts are vital, as you say.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Little Pony wrote: »

I have read some absolutely shocking ignorance on Twitter regarding NI politics. The complete lack of just historical facts regarding the DUP founding, someone has said you had IRA members in the DUP, someone said the DUP came out of the Ulster Resistance. 

The school system in England has a lot to answer for that you have so many morons in England who don't have a clue about the politics of the whole of the UK. I don't agree with the DUP stance on gay marriage or the horrific idea of creationism.

But they do have the seats to prop up the Tories and I ask anyone who thinks it is a bad idea, what would you do? Theresa May actually wants to resign but the Brexit negotiations start a few days. Unless you think the negotiations should be delayed for a bit, a Tory leadership starts and then a call of a general election.

This option might give her and the government a few months to settle things down and then maybe a leadership challenge can happen.

You are only realising now that there is a lot of ignorance of what the UK actually is?

A Little Pony

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

What is the point you are making? I am aware of the beliefs some of them within the DUP have. They still have a huge mandate from a lot of people in Northern Ireland. But please don't condone people getting facts wrong about the most basic stuff.

Helping you inform other posters about the facts. Facts are vital, as you say.

You are speaking to the converted in here.

Jamiekelly

The next demand the DUP make will be to fine every media outlet that keeps calling them Irish.

Irishweather

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are only realising now that there is a lot of ignorance of what the UK actually is?

+1. Many would view the UK as England or Britain only.