Switching electricity providers - Pain in the a$$

Xcellor

I'm coming up to end of current contract with BGE for electricity so I am starting to do the comparisons. It's not a trivial thing and I'm wondering why there is no regulation it seems companies can throw around "20% off" etc when all their unit prices vary massively, standing charges varies and cash back offers also...

Why can't the regulator establish a base "unit price" and electricity companies have to give % off that. It would make it much more transparent to joe blogs. As it stands to get a proper comparison I have to plug unit rate for each provider, % discount, add standing charge applicable for that provider, factor any cash back and then based on my usage determine if cash back makes more sense over a saving in per unit over a year OR trust price comparison websites.

ScouseMouse

Check bonkers.ie They do a good job of breaking down the figures

JoeySully

yeah then ring BGE back with the new price you are getting and they may offer you a cash incentive to stay. moving from BGE would have saved me 130€ in the year but the offered me €150 credit to stay how could i say no.

amtc

The whole point about regulation is to move towards deregulation i.e effective competition. Given that there are so many operators no one has a monopoly and retail regulation is removed leaving only wholesale regulation. Telecoms is the same model. This leads to companies differentiating on bundles which are purposely.non transparent. (Guess What I work in )

chocandgo

ScouseMouse wrote: »

Check bonkers.ie They do a good job of breaking down the figures

Yeah, I used bonkers.ie when I was changing electricity suppliers and they took the pain out of it.

hognef

amtc wrote: »

The whole point about regulation is to move towards deregulation i.e effective competition. Given that there are so many operators no one has a monopoly and retail regulation is removed leaving only wholesale regulation. Telecoms is the same model. This leads to companies differentiating on bundles which are purposely.non transparent. (Guess What I work in )

They're all free to come up with their own packages, yet all offer exactly one year of discounted prices to new customers. I wonder why that is.

L1011

hognef wrote: »

They're all free to come up with their own packages, yet all offer exactly one year of discounted prices to new customers. I wonder why that is.

Because the standard contract term is one year for all services, pretty much worldwide. 18/24 for subsidised mobile phones.

There are VASTLY different prices across the market, both on unit prices and standing charges. The PSO levy (and VAT on the lot) is often forgotten when people see minimal differences changing.

hognef

L1011 wrote: »

Because the standard contract term is one year for all services, pretty much worldwide. 18/24 for subsidised mobile phones.

That's a bit of an over-generalization, methinks, and also doesn't explain anything. Why does the price need to go up at the end of the contract? Why is there no (published or easily accessible) incentive, with any provider, for an existing customer to stay?

Also, mobile contracts used to be 12 months, even in Ireland, until a few years ago when the 24 month contracts started to sneak in. Point being, the providers (within each market) copy each other. Energy contracts used to be shorter too, before the free market was introduced.

Finally, a truly competitive market should generate more variety in the types of contracts on offer, e.g. different minimum contracts, different pricing (fixed, variable, tracker - yes, wholesale prices change daily), etc. There's none of that available here.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

hognef wrote: »

That's a bit of an over-generalization, methinks, and also doesn't explain anything. Why does the price need to go up at the end of the contract? Why is there no (published or easily accessible) incentive, with any provider, for an existing customer to stay?

Also, mobile contracts used to be 12 months, even in Ireland, until a few years ago when the 24 month contracts started to sneak in. Point being, the providers (within each market) copy each other. Energy contracts used to be shorter too, before the free market was introduced.

Finally, a truly competitive market should generate more variety in the types of contracts on offer, e.g. different minimum contracts, different pricing (fixed, variable, tracker - yes, wholesale prices change daily), etc. There's none of that available here

Actually, competitive markets are inclined to settle to the lowest common denominator and for terms and costs to graduate towards a standard. It's an inevitable consequence of trading in a product with near identical wholesale costs.
As for energy contracts being shorter pre the free market. Can you state what said contact periods were, because I can find none shorter?

L1011

hognef wrote: »

That's a bit of an over-generalization, methinks, and also doesn't explain anything. Why does the price need to go up at the end of the contract? Why is there no (published or easily accessible) incentive, with any provider, for an existing customer to stay?

Also, mobile contracts used to be 12 months, even in Ireland, until a few years ago when the 24 month contracts started to sneak in. Point being, the providers (within each market) copy each other. Energy contracts used to be shorter too, before the free market was introduced.

Finally, a truly competitive market should generate more variety in the types of contracts on offer, e.g. different minimum contracts, different pricing (fixed, variable, tracker - yes, wholesale prices change daily), etc. There's none of that available here.

Introductory offers are the norm worldwide. Not publishing incentives to stay (but having them if pressed) is the norm worldwide

The market here is one of the most competitive in the world in terms of number of suppliers and type of options. You appear to be comparing us to a notional market that doesn't exist - you're only going to find fragments of that in any individual market.

Also, consumers really, really do not like being charged cost-plus on something that changes daily. Budgeting? Pah!

hognef

Antonella Purring Mucous wrote: »

Actually, competitive markets are inclined to settle to the lowest common denominator and for terms and costs to graduate towards a standard. It's an inevitable consequence of trading in a product with near identical wholesale costs.
As for energy contracts being shorter pre the free market. Can you state what said contact periods were, because I can find none shorter?

There's been no "settling" or "graduating towards a standard" -- how it is now is how it has been since day 1 of the free market.

I seem to remember 3 or 6 month contracts pre free market, but obviously I can't find any of them now, because they don't exist any more...

hognef

L1011 wrote: »

Introductory offers are the norm worldwide. Not publishing incentives to stay (but having them if pressed) is the norm worldwide

The market here is one of the most competitive in the world in terms of number of suppliers and type of options. You appear to be comparing us to a notional market that doesn't exist - you're only going to find fragments of that in any individual market.

Also, consumers really, really do not like being charged cost-plus on something that changes daily. Budgeting? Pah!

You seem to be a worldwide expert... Ireland one of the most competitive markets in the world? 8 suppliers, 12 month contacts with all, some artificial percentage discount with all?

Norway, as an example, has over 100 suppliers, each of which tend to offer a mix of minimum term or not, fixed prices, variable prices, prices tracking the Nord Pool wholesale prices, etc. Similar population to Ireland.

So such a market exists, not just fragments of it. Admittedly a different situation in terms of how energy is produced, but in any case vastly more competitive than the Irish market.

Trackers were fairly popular for mortgages. Why on earth would it be different in the energy markets, when, over time, they will always be the cheapest option? Some people need the predictability, and are willing to pay for it, in the form of a fixed price (which generally comes at a premium). Most people just want the cheapest option.

TheDriver

Don't understand the issue- go on bonkers, establish the unit price for the year and sign up. When u are near end of year, repeat but firstly ask existing supplier to match the unit price being offered from cheapest.
Also works for gas

Cabaal

hognef wrote: »

Energy contracts used to be shorter too, before the free market was introduced..

What are you on about?
Not long ago in this country there was no energy competition in Ireland, we had the ESB and that was it!

When other providers started up they had 12 month contracts from the very start, so your claim they were shorter is just silly.

Before 12 month contracts your only choice was the esb and this was basically a life long contract since you could never change provider.. Because there was nobody else.

hognef

Cabaal wrote: »

What are you on about?
Not long ago in this country there was no energy competition in Ireland, we had the ESB and that was it!

When other providers started up they had 12 month contracts from the very start, so your claim they were shorter is just silly.

Before 12 month contracts your only choice was the esb and this was basically a life long contract since you could never change provider.. Because there was nobody else.

So there was no minimum? That's shorter than 12 months in my book. You could move, or even leave the country without paying a penalty to exit the contract. That's not so easy now.

Del2005

hognef wrote: »

That's a bit of an over-generalization, methinks, and also doesn't explain anything. Why does the price need to go up at the end of the contract? Why is there no (published or easily accessible) incentive, with any provider, for an existing customer to stay?

Also, mobile contracts used to be 12 months, even in Ireland, until a few years ago when the 24 month contracts started to sneak in. Point being, the providers (within each market) copy each other. Energy contracts used to be shorter too, before the free market was introduced.

Finally, a truly competitive market should generate more variety in the types of contracts on offer, e.g. different minimum contracts, different pricing (fixed, variable, tracker - yes, wholesale prices change daily), etc. There's none of that available here.

The costs of phones has shot up considerably. I don't think many people had €800+ phones back when the 3310 was king. So to cover the extra cost of the phone they increased the contract lenght.


Don't forget with all these discounts we are getting for having multiple companies to choose from is because they greatly increased the cost of our electricity from one of the lowest in the EU, with a government monopoly, to one of the highest with free market!

My car and bike insurance, TV, internet are all annual contracts. The only thing I can think that aren't annual are mobiles with everything from 24 months to 30 days.

Del2005

JoeySully wrote: »

yeah then ring BGE back with the new price you are getting and they may offer you a cash incentive to stay. moving from BGE would have saved me 130€ in the year but the offered me €150 credit to stay how could i say no.

Much like when I renew my insurance I refuse to go back to my current company unless they offer me the best price originally. Why should I go off and look for a deal and then they say oh that price that we gave you wasn't our best price but we thought we'd sucker you with it.

hognef

Del2005 wrote: »

The costs of phones has shot up considerably. I don't think many people had €800+ phones back when the 3310 was king. So to cover the extra cost of the phone they increased the contract lenght.

Indeed. But remember there were two factors that could've been adjusted: The length of the contract and the upfront cost. Yet all providers seem to have gone for exactly the same solution, and hardly to benefit the consumer.

Cabaal

hognef wrote: »

So there was no minimum? That's shorter than 12 months in my book. You could move, or even leave the country without paying a penalty to exit the contract. That's not so easy now.

You're having a laugh right?
You understand there also was no competition either right? That meant you paid top price and you had no other options to go with anyone else.

So you'd rather a lifetime of using one provider who can charge what they like but you don't have a contract, then numerous providers that all have discounts to attract customers but they have a short 12 month contract.

Excuse me while I cough up a lung laughing at your logic.

hognef

Cabaal wrote: »

You're having a laugh right?
You understand there also was no competition either right? That meant you paid top price and you had no other options to go with anyone else.

So you'd rather a lifetime of using one provider who can charge what they like but you don't have a contract, then numerous providers that all have discounts to attract customers but they have a short 12 month contract.

Excuse me while I cough up a lung laughing at your logic.

Stop reading things in my messages that aren't actually there. You do realise a better system is not necessarily the best system, right?

Del2005

Cabaal wrote: »

You're having a laugh right?
You understand there also was no competition either right? That meant you paid top price and you had no other options to go with anyone else.

So you'd rather a lifetime of using one provider who can charge what they like but you don't have a contract, then numerous providers that all have discounts to attract customers but they have a short 12 month contract.

Excuse me while I cough up a lung laughing at your logic.

I'd rather be tied to one of the cheapest electricity providers in the EU than have a choice between some of the most expensive in the EU. Our monopoly and ''overpaid" semi state company had cheap electricity, the price was artificially increased to enable competition. So having a choice in this case is costing us in the long term.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Del2005 wrote: »

I'd rather be tied to one of the cheapest electricity providers in the EU than have a choice between some of the most expensive in the EU. Our monopoly and ''overpaid" semi state company had cheap electricity, the price was artificially increased to enable competition. So having a choice in this case is costing us in the long term.

I'd also rather a company like here who charge all customers in any part of the country the same. Norway charges by geographical region and some companies there only supply particular locations.

hognef

Antonella Purring Mucous wrote: »

I'd also rather a company like here who charge all customers in any part of the country the same. Norway charges by geographical region and some companies there only supply particular locations.

You do realize they charge differently in Ireland too, depending on whether you're in an urban or rural area?

Norway has much more difficult nature to deal with in most parts, and much larger distances are involved, when compared to Ireland, so it's only natural that some differences in cost arise as a result.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

hognef wrote: »

You do realize they charge differently in Ireland too, depending on whether you're in an urban or rural area?

Norway has much more difficult nature to deal with in most parts, and much larger distances are involved, when compared to Ireland, so it's only natural that some differences in cost arise as a result.

They charge by unit differently. We only have a very small difference in urban and rural standing charges. It's a huge difference. But, carry on with your utopian images.

hognef

Antonella Purring Mucous wrote: »

They charge by unit differently. We only have a very small difference in urban and rural standing charges. It's a huge difference. But, carry on with your utopian images.

You're the one who said you wanted prices to be the exact same for everyone. I just pointed out that that is not the case even in Ireland, and that there are natural reasons for that both here and there. I'm happy for there to be differences, as long as they are created by a free and functioning market, and as long as the end price corresponds to the cost of supplying the service.

A free and functioning market, to me, is closer to Utopia than the fixed prices that you seem to be after.

crossmolinalad

for years I had ESB/electric Ireland
Never paid any deposit and paid bills upfront a weekly base on the post office
So when my bill comes in its paid already
When I wil switch to another doing the same as above they want a deposit around the 300 euro`s what I cant miss and the most of them wants the bill paid in once and not in a weekly payment upfront
switching is not an option for us

Xcellor

According to bonkers based on my usage switching to Energia would save me

€73.62 a year. however...

If I switch to electric Ireland I will pay more per unit

-€28.70

But with 175 cash back my saving actually is €143. This cash back is excluded because it's non recurring but provided I switch after 12 months this should be the best option for me.

That's if my usage stays the same.

Any flaw in the above or does it make sense??

TheDoc

ScouseMouse wrote: »

Check bonkers.ie They do a good job of breaking down the figures

USed bonkers for the first time last year after hearing about them, signed up with Flogas.

Administration error in the process resulted in my gas being locked and requiring me to pay a fee to have the lock removed. Was an extremely frustrating incident, that resulted in a number of weeks without hot water in the house. With kids at home it was a disaster.

What I will say between Bonkers and Flogas, both parties were extremely helpful in terms of being empathetic and getting is resolved, but it was just a mess as it required ESB to get in the loop, and the department from the Gas NEtwork that go out and apply the locks.

Likely an edge case, but it definitely made me just use bonkers for price comparison, but go through the contractual and signups myself with the respective companies as opposed to leaving them handle it.

I've had a pretty rubbish time of it with "intermediaries" like bonkers, or Chill insurance (disaster).