Compulsory Irish in schools

AudreyHepburn

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

There is, no one wants to f**king learn it or f**king speak it

First off there's no need to get agressive, we're just having a normal adult conversation. Calm down.

Second speak for yourself, there are people who would love to be fluent myself included.

AudreyHepburn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The problem is desire, or lack thereof. Students are practical and mostly don't want to learn it -
and of they do, power to them - and the nation is mostly happy speaking English.

Agreed and I firmly believe the lack of desire could be dealt with if the way the language was taught was changed as I mentioned in my previous post.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

FTA69 wrote: »

Define living though. There are thriving schools across Ireland where the language is spoken on a fluent basis by young people. There are many couples who speak Irish with their children in the home across the country (probably more outside the Gaeltacht than in it at this stage). If you look up Irish language meetups in Dublin there are thousands of people joined those groups. The Gaelgeori society in my college was always thriving. Videos on YouTube of Irish and songs in it have millions of views.

It's far from dead by any means.

Only 4%, of those who said they could speak Irish, do so on a regular basis according to the 2016 census. 4% of Irish speakers, less than 2% of the total population. And the number dropped by 3,400 in the past 5 years. The facts don't cheer me but I see them as reflecting my own experience - our household contains some of the 4% by the way.

FTA69

Lyle Swift Gesture wrote: »

Only 4%, of those who said they could speak Irish, do so on a regular basis according to the 2016 census. 4% of Irish speakers, less than 2% of the total population. And the number dropped by 3,400 in the past 5 years. The facts don't cheer me but I see them as reflecting my own experience - our household contains some of the 4% by the way.

I'm honestly not having a go or trying to be smart; but it's far from dead. There are thousands of young fluent speakers, hundreds of Gaelscoillena and as such it lives. It isn't Manx or Cornish like.

I don't believe that it will ever supplant English but there's no reason there can't be a thriving minority language in Ireland the same way there is in the Basque Country or Wales. Sorting out the teaching method is the first step in that though but as always in Ireland inertia will most likely prevail.

Wibbs

FTA69 wrote: »

Spot on. Basque is a much better example.

It is and it isn't FT. The first hit it took was a large migration of Spanish speakers into the area in the 19th century. These newcomers made Basque the "peasant" language and Spanish the language of education, commerce and law(not unlike how Irish drifted westward under the influence of English) Later on during Franco's time there was a very real and sustained attempt to wipe the Basque language out in Spain. Even giving your kids Basque names was banned for a time. After Franco died, there was a revival that took root among the people and pretty rapidly took off.

The problem with the Irish language and the Irish people is that when the shackles of London fell away(there were more Irish speakers then than now) there seems beyond all the wishful thinking and rhetoric(on both sides) there was and remains little actual grass roots desire to retake the language as "ours". There was and is a huge amount of top down investment, advantages for Irish speakers etc, but it still didn't take among the majority population.

Take the Civil Service, where once Irish was compulsory in the day to day business of the office. This compulsion was removed one Friday and the very next Monday most went over to English. And consider, these were people who were already fluent.

Look further to the Irish diaspora throughout the world. The majority of those immigrants in the 19th century would have been fluent in the language. And again at nearly the moment their shoe leather hit foreign soil they dropped the language. This is in sharp contrast to pretty much every other immigrant group. The Chinese contained to speak Chinese, the Italians spoke Italian(though that tapered off), the Spanish spoke Spanish, Jews kept Yiddish going and so on. German was the second language by numbers in the US until the First World War. Today there are far more fluent Dutch speakers among Dutch Americans who number in the couple of million mark, than there are fluent Irish speakers among Irish Americans who number in the over thirty million mark.

In short that regardless of top down wishes, legislation and investment and our collective wishy washy wishful thinking it seems like the Irish people really don't want the language for themselves beyond lip service, usually and ironically as Bearla. We may not want it to die out, but the vast majority do little to speak it.

FTA69

Ireland and Euskal Herria have many differences but also similarities. The key similarity I suppose is that they all share a common, dominant and official language in Spanish but there is a thriving Basque scene as well. I've been to concerts over there with thousands of young people attending Basque language rock bands (usually too p*ssed to remember the details unfortunately) and likewise they have the Ikestola, their hugely popular version of the Gaelscoil.

Today there is nowhere near the same official repression of the language there, but it's cool and young people are into it and they want to learn it. Likewise many Basques couldn't give a sh*t about it and some are actually hostile to it for similar reasons some people here are.

I suppose I'll go back to my original point, there are people supporting Irish today in many dynamic ways and that should be supported wholly. Cumpolsury education and the preservations of Gaeltacht aren't the way forward anyway, as 90 years of state policy has shown.

whisky_galore

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

First off there's no need to get agressive, we're just having a normal adult conversation. Calm down.

Second speak for yourself, there are people who would love to be fluent myself included.

This is the nub of the issue. The "ah shur twould be great if I could speak it" sector of the population who would hate to see the language dying out and are in favour of compulsory Irish in schoils but who won't get off their asses to do anything about it themselves.
The language is great, in their opinion and should be preserved and nurtured.... provided someone else does the work.

At least I'm being honest, not speaking it nor caring less what happens to it.

Teaching of Irish in National schools seems to have changes in recent times? More conversations and fun, the way it should be.

Secondary schools are behind the times.

amtc

Just to clarify. Irish is not compulsory. I have the front page of the Irish Times of the day I was born (Aprl 5 1973) and it states that the compulsory nature of it was rescinded.

More opportunities for people with languages, even Irish. It definitely should be promoted more for kids. Good money to be made translating for one. Know quite a few that use Irish in their line of work.

Great life skill to have.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Agreed and I firmly believe the lack of desire could be dealt with if the way the language was taught was changed as I mentioned in my previous post.

Possibly true, but you need to hit kids as soon as they start school - and I'm talking infants/first class here.

In any case, it doesn't change the issue: Irish should still be optional. If the disire is there, you won't need to make it compulsory - people will opt for it. And if people don't opt for it, then people to need to ask themselves why.

Filmer Paradise

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In any case, it doesn't change the issue: Irish should still be optional. If the disire is there, you won't need to make it compulsory - people will opt for it. And if people don't opt for it, then people to need to ask themselves why.

Deep down, even the hardened Galegoir knows that the minute it's made optional, the number of students learning Irish will fall through the floor.

Hardly anyone would do it. Why would they?

That's what they're petrified of really & it's the real reason they fight tooth & claw to keep it compulsory.

wakka12

Could say the same for most subjects. I haven't used my leaving cert history, chemistry or algebra knowledge any more than I have my Irish after leaving school, so the real world usefulness argument is a bit redundant

wakka12

But Irish is equally useless in real world to almost every other subject, so you're right theres no reason it should be compulsory while others are not
I also don't believe mathematics should be compulsory beyond an extremely basic level
learning off theorems? of less use to my life after leaving school than even Irish

Filmer Paradise

wakka12 wrote: »

Could say the same for most subjects. I haven't used my leaving cert history, chemistry or algebra knowledge any more than I have my Irish after leaving school, so the real world usefulness argument is a bit redundant

Irish & Religion seem to be the only the only 2 subjects thought in schools that are promoted by special interest groups though.

As far as I know, none of the others you mention are.

wakka12

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Irish & Religion seem to be the only the only 2 subjects thought in schools that are promoted by special interest groups though.

As far as I know, none of the others you mention are.

I don't know, why is maths promoted so much? Most of the things we learn after junior cert are completely useless in real life so why so much push from so many people for it to be compulsory? Giving extra points for taking honours even?

Filmer Paradise

wakka12 wrote: »

I don't know, why is maths promoted so much? Most of the things we learn after junior cert are completely useless in real life so why so much push from so many people for it to be compulsory? Giving extra points for taking honours even?

Because there wouldn't be as much as a wall built in this country without it, let alone houses, roads, bridges & all the infrastructure needed for a semi-first world country....

And that's just for starters!

Carlos Orange

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Irish is our native tongue

For some weird definition of the term native tongue.

Pinkycharm

I'm an Irish teacher. Would make my job easier if it was an option because I'd have the students that want to do it in my class rather than loads that don't. I know a school has brought in Chinese locally which I think is cool.

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Richard Bruton has announced today a plan for all Junior Cert students to be studying a foreign language in the next few years.

I am all for that (in fact I thought it was already the case) - anything that helps our young communicate with a larger share of the world than they already can is a plus in my book.

Which brings me to the question in the thread - is our insistence on compulsory Irish in the curriculum worth the cost in terms of both money and the time that could be spent teaching something else?

Don't get me wrong, it should always be an option for those that wish to take it, but given the lack of real world utility for this language (given that the people who use it can also communicate in English perfectly well when the situation calls for it - unlike for example the majority of those who predominantly communicate through Mandarin Chinese or Russian for example) beyond what is essentially a hobby for the gaeilgeoir communuity, does it even do the language any favors to force it down the throats of those that can't see any use for it, at least at Leaving Cert level when most students are likely stressing about subjects that they may be more likely to actually use in later life? This way too, those that actually WANT to study the language can at a level that doesn't need to take into account the uninterested.

What think you, AH?

wakka12

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Because there wouldn't be as much as a wall built in this country without it, let alone houses, roads, bridges & all the infrastructure needed for a semi-first world country....

And that's just for starters!

There would, because only people who are interested in mathematics went on to study engineering and do these things. I haven't contributed to the building of bridges or houses in the country, so no need to have put me through the absolute hell that was leaving cert maths

Filmer Paradise

wakka12 wrote: »

There would, because only people who are interested in mathematics went on to study engineering and do these things. I haven't contributed to the building of bridges or houses in the country, so no need to have put me through the absolute hell that was leaving cert maths

Pretty much all the trades need some degree of maths. Carpentry for one would involve trigonometry to figure out angles & cuts.

You don't need to be a Qualified Engineer to need more than just basic addition & subtraction.

wakka12

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Pretty much all the trades need some degree of maths. Carpentry for one would involve trigonometry to figure out angles & cuts.

You don't need to be a Qualified Engineer to need more than just basic addition & subtraction.

Yes some degree of maths, but even thats debatable. And thats why I said nothing beyond 'basic maths', i.e. algebra is completely and utterly useless to anyone who isn't going to study engineering or other courses like that, so why put people through it? Theres no argument for it really, the maths we are taught is useless to the vast majority of people after school , same as Irish

And that carpentry analogy lol, I guarantee you a carpenter could get on just fine in his job having never so much as looked at a secondary school maths book
do barbers need to know trigonometry too to make accurate hair cuttings? and dancers have keen knowledge of aerodynamics to be able to judge their spin timings properly

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Pretty much all the trades need some degree of maths. Carpentry for one would involve trigonometry to figure out angles & cuts.

You don't need to be a Qualified Engineer to need more than just basic addition & subtraction.

You dont need leaving cert maths to do those trades - i know at least two people who quit school after the junior cert and are carpenters.

The maths and English you need for every day life you have (or should have) long before you do the leaving cert.

And yes, i believe they should be optional after the junior cert: nothing on the LC syllabus is essential an essential lifeskill.

Your Face

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Pretty much all the trades need some degree of maths. Carpentry for one would involve trigonometry to figure out angles & cuts.

You'd be surprised at how little Mathematics is utilized in the trades.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

wakka12

Your Face wrote: »

You'd be surprised at how little Mathematics is utilized in the trades.

I study architecture and would be no better or worse off having not done leaving cert maths. You are only required to sit one physics/algebra type module and its nothing like anything in leaving cert maths.

cbreeze

I often try to understand the programmes on TG4. This is made a lot easier because nearly every second word is in English, 'like' and 'you know' crop up all the time.

The language is on life-support at the moment, but the whole effort behind preserving it is giving a lot of work to those who would not otherwise be engaged and that has to be a Good Thing.

I don't like Radio na Gaeltachta because it blocks out the signal from BBC Radio three where I live - but I can get it on the internet, yay!

Not mad about the Teanga-nazis either who want to force the Official Language Act down everyone's throats with their signs and equal translations of documents that honestly nobody reads.

Royale with Cheese

It should absolutely be removed as a compulsory subject for the leaving cert. I, like many others I was in school with, did six higher level subjects and did ordinary level Irish purely just to get the pass I required. Out of the approximate 100 students in my year who took Irish I think about 90 sat the ordinary level paper.

It was just a complete waste of time at that point, I'd already spent ten years "learning" the language. Having to sit it as part of the leaving cert, with everything else you needed to study for, was just completely unnecessary. Even though I'd basically switched off and coasted to the pass I needed, I think those two years made me resent the learning Irish experience more than anything.

wakka12

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

It should absolutely be removed as a compulsory subject for the leaving cert. I, like many others I was in school with, did six higher level subjects and did ordinary level Irish purely just to get the pass I required. Out of the approximate 100 students in my year who took Irish I think about 90 sat the ordinary level paper.

It was just a complete waste of time at that point, I'd already spent ten years "learning" the language. Having to sit it as part of the leaving cert, with everything else you needed to study for, was just completely unnecessary. Even though I'd basically switched off and coasted to the pass I needed, I think those two years made me resent the learning Irish experience more than anything.

Well, it seems your school may have taught it especially badly. Because those numbers arent reflective of the rest of the country
1/2 of my year sat pass irish
2/3 of my year sat pass maths as well and Im not sure what the stats are on average for other schools but I assume our **** maths teacher contributed to that high number

Graces7

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Possibly true, but you need to hit kids as soon as they start school - and I'm talking infants/first class here.

In any case, it doesn't change the issue: Irish should still be optional. If the disire is there, you won't need to make it compulsory - people will opt for it. And if people don't opt for it, then people to need to ask themselves why.

Easy to see. It is a very difficult language in a world of easy fast answers. It must be preserved and honoured if ireland is not to be preserved and honoured as a distinctive culture.

Graces7

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Deep down, even the hardened Galegoir knows that the minute it's made optional, the number of students learning Irish will fall through the floor.

Hardly anyone would do it. Why would they?

That's what they're petrified of really & it's the real reason they fight tooth & claw to keep it compulsory.

No not petrified. Simply a strong and righteous belief in this. In the need and the validity of the real language of Ireland. which I share.

namloc1980

wakka12 wrote: »

I don't know, why is maths promoted so much? Most of the things we learn after junior cert are completely useless in real life so why so much push from so many people for it to be compulsory? Giving extra points for taking honours even?

You could literally say that about any subject. I haven't had much call for Macbeth since leaving school or tectonic plates.

namloc1980

Graces7 wrote: »

No not petrified. Simply a strong and righteous belief in this. In the need and the validity of the real language of Ireland. which I share.

As someone who went to both an all Irish primary and secondary school I have zero need for Irish in real life. While it is the native language it simply is not used. Keeping it on artificial life support is probably harming it more than anything.

RandomName2

Is there anything to be said for spending perhaps an hour a day teaching our young lasses and laddies how to play the harp? It is our national instrument, yet we are in danger of losing this valuable skill and figure of our identity.







All tv and radio should also have a mandatory hour of harp playing a day in order to be able to keep their broadcasting licences.

:pac:

Carlos Orange

RandomName2 wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for spending perhaps an hour a day teaching our young lasses and laddies how to play the harp? It is our national instrument, yet we are in danger of losing this valuable skill and figure of our identity.

I know people claim the harp is our national instrument but 99% of people are raised playing the guitar.

RandomName2

psinno wrote: »

I know people claim the harp is our national instrument but 99% of people are raised playing the guitar.

The guitar is a foreign instrument. That is all I have to say on the subject. :P

Graces7

namloc1980 wrote: »

As someone who went to both an all Irish primary and secondary school I have zero need for Irish in real life. While it is the native language it simply is not used. Keeping it on artificial life support is probably harming it more than anything.

Whose "need"? What we are saying here is that IRELAND needs the language to be kept and used. For distinctive culture and individuality rather than a homegeneous liquid

And in my albeit limited experience in my 16 years here it IS used and valued. Very much so. It I were younger and more able I would learn it. I got the first two words of the Lord's Prayer only...

Teaching the children in Gaeltacht homes is not" artificial life support" It is a living language through and through..

I am in a Gaeitacht area now and am perforce learning the dual names of where I live and their meanings. Beautiful words..

It helps tourism too as it makes the place more.... exotic and foreign.

elefant

Compulsory Irish in Primary Schools.
Focussed almost entirely on speaking. Forget about learning lists of tenses or doing your multiplication tables as Gaeilge; just have children be able to hold decent conversation by the time they leave to secondary school.

Optional in secondary school.
The kids who have a passion for Irish will benefit from being in class with others of a similar level of interest and it will be a hell of a lot easier for teachers. Those who have no interest in the language can do an extra additional language instead of Irish, and still keep that ability to hold a 12 year old level of conversation in Irish if they so wish or if they want to return to the language in the future.

At the very least, they'll be able to benefit from watching the best terrestrial television channel Ireland has to offer.

jeonahr

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

There has reportedly been a greater shift towards oral Irish at all levels, perhaps the total immersion approach would be best for teaching all languages. As for the main topic, keep it compulsory at primary level, perhaps up to Junior Cert, but make it optional for the Leaving Cert. Portuguese would seem the most useful addition of the proposed languages, given the rise of Brazil.

Yeah, at LC all Irish students have an oral at 40% worth their mark. The examiner also doesn't differentiate ordinary level students and higher level students. Meaning OL students are getting a raw deal being compared to the HL students.

VinLieger

Graces7 wrote: »

Whose "need"? What we are saying here is that IRELAND needs the language to be kept and used. For distinctive culture and individuality rather than a homegeneous liquid

You have evidence and facts to back up why Ireland needs it? Beyond broad baseless claims of "culture" and "heritage"

Graces7 wrote: »

It helps tourism too as it makes the place more.... exotic and foreign.

Please explain how less than 2% of the population being able to speak the language helps tourism?

elefant

VinLieger wrote: »

Please explain how less than 2% of the population being able to speak the language helps tourism?

Most non-Irish people don't even realise Irish is a language, let alone it influencing their decision to visit the country :pac:

RandomName2

Graces7 wrote: »

Whose "need"? What we are saying here is that IRELAND needs the language to be kept and used. For distinctive culture and individuality rather than a homogeneous liquid

Yeah, okay, that's the nationalist argument: and it's handy that you go to it directly, because this is what it all boils down to ultimately (most of the other arguments are beating around the bush).

But, I mean, can culture be orchestrated? Can it be produced through legislation? I think that culture is organic.

I agree that national identity is important. Really. I think that borders, national governance, and all that sort of stuff are things worth protecting.

But this is the question of whether one aspect of our culture should be put on a pedestal above all others, supported by law, by billions of euro poured into it, and even then it produces very little in its own right. What Irish movies, songs, novels, computer games, papers, bloggers, youtubers in the last five years have been made as Gaeilge? It is not as if Ireland isn't famous for its works of art. sarcasm -> WB Yeats wasn't a real poet because he wrote in English, etc.

Besides which, one man's homogeneous liquid is another man's melting pot.

Graces7 wrote: »

And in my albeit limited experience in my 16 years here it IS used and valued. Very much so.

By nationalists and those whose income are dependent upon it, predominantly.

Graces7 wrote: »

I am in a Gaeitacht area now and am perforce learning the dual names of where I live and their meanings. Beautiful words..

That I agree with you about. Understanding the origin of our place names is nice, and the original vocabulary of Gaeilge is pleasant (although all the artificial Gaelicisation of English words in an attempt to keep the language modern, less so)

Graces7 wrote: »

It helps tourism too as it makes the place more.... exotic and foreign.

Isn't that paddywhackery?

A Little Pony

Why don't people just see it for what it is, a hobby? It isn't a language which is ever going to be used in every day life like English is. People who are offended at me saying that should just deal with it. It is called reality. Stop forcing it onto people.

Carlos Orange

RandomName2 wrote: »

Yeah, okay, that's the nationalist argument: and it's handy that you go to it directly, because this is what it all boils down to ultimately (most of the other arguments are beating around the bush).

I always find it strange that some Irish people are so insecure. I have never gotten that impression from other English speaking countries.

jeonahr

The forcing of it on children who are of a different ethnic background is also mind boggling. Personally, even though I grew up here doesn't mean I don't have my own language to keep up. One that's actually in use in everyday life.
And I know schools let children not do Irish in class if they joined primary school after the age of 11 in Ireland, but still it's not fair to shove it down our throats when it's got absolutely no use to us or anyone outside the Gaeltacht.

namloc1980

Graces7 wrote: »

What we are saying here is that IRELAND needs the language to be kept and used. For distinctive culture and individuality rather than a homegeneous liquid.

Why does it need it? Irish doesn't define us. Irish people who don't speak Gaeilge are no less Irish than someone who does. It's of no use in the real world unfortunately. Instead of the vast amounts of time spent on Irish and religion in our schools, time spent on foreign languages and coding etc. would be of infinitely more value in the real world.

FTA69

jeonahr wrote: »

The forcing of it on children who are of a different ethnic background is also mind boggling. Personally, even though I grew up here doesn't mean I don't have my own language to keep up. One that's actually in use in everyday life.
And I know schools let children not do Irish in class if they joined primary school after the age of 11 in Ireland, but still it's not fair to shove it down our throats when it's got absolutely no use to us or anyone outside the Gaeltacht.

That's non-argument really. A child born to Polish or Lithuanian parents in Ireland isn't going to "forget" their parent's/home language because they have to learn Irish at school. It's possible to be learning more than one language by the way. Also, being of a different ethnic background isn't a reason to opt out of a given subject because you don't like it.

If I moved to France I wouldn't demand my children have the right to learn Irish history or whatever in school.

Carlos Orange

Graces7 wrote: »

For distinctive culture and individuality rather than a homegeneous liquid

In order to have a distinctive culture and individuality we need to force everyone to learn a language that they have no relationship with? Not sure you really get what individuality is.

Carlos Orange

FTA69 wrote: »

Also, being of a different ethnic background isn't a reason to opt out of a given subject because you don't like it.

It kinda is when someone else's ethnic identity is being forced on you.

Mrs OBumble

FTA69 wrote: »

That's non-argument really. A child born to Polish or Lithuanian parents in Ireland isn't going to "forget" their parent's/home language because they have to learn Irish at school. It's possible to be learning more than one language by the way. Also, being of a different ethnic background isn't a reason to opt out of a given subject because you don't like it.

If I moved to France I wouldn't demand my children have the right to learn Irish history or whatever in school.

Lots of Polish kids go to Polish school on the weekend to learn Polish language and culture. They have less trouble on average with Irish because they alresdy have the ifea of learning multiple languages.

And ive several times watched an African-origin kid correct the Irish pronunciation used by an Irish priest. Had to work hard not to openly laugh at him.