Sharing Manuals

KoolKid

Hi

There is quite a dispute going on at the moment over in Home Security about the sharing of manuals and software etc.
Mostly this stuff is freely available across the net anyway but some users would like the information restricted.Claiming breach of copyright etc.
I would also stress these are shared off thread individually via PM or Email.
I see stuff like this all across Boards and other sites .
My belief is Boards is all about people helping people while obviousally sticking to whats legal..
Would love to hear some unbiased opinions from outside of the industry.
Also, would limiting stuff like this have implications for other forums and the site as a whole?

Beasty

Copyright policy was updated here

We're quite limited what we can do with anything that is copyrighted

We were also advised that requesting links to pirated/illegal stuff (illegal streams for example) was not permitted. Obviously if people wish to share information via PM there is little that can be done but asking in-thread for such information was prohibited, and I've not seen any announcements changing that

KoolKid

Very limited what's there though.
You can post part of an article and link to the rest.
Could that equate to you could post or link to relevant sections of copyrighted material ?
If the manual was on you tube could it be linked to?
Manufacturers themselves post up helpful videos etc?
Would these or our own YouTube videos be Ok also?

hullaballoo

Anyone know is there a decent lawyer we could ask?

Zaph

hullaballoo wrote: »

Anyone know is there a decent lawyer we could ask?

Lawyer? Yep. Decent lawyer? Around here? :pac:

I'll ask the office to weigh in on this in the morning.

KoolKid

I'm just wondering about the site wide implementation with stuff like manuals etc. We all know streaming copyright content & linking to movies , music etc.
But manuals/guides etc? In many cases manufacturers & suppliers themselves make such stuff available for download.
Would linking to external content still be an issue.?

A quick search on boards brings up loads
eg...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96050460
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99999920
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90974525
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101935782
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102730980&postcount=43
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=98571906
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92525974
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92525974

I guess I'm asking if this is to be implemented over there. How is the line defined?


PS Thanks Zaph. I remember asking you similar previously when the guys over there were all against the sharing of information. This is the new angle on that I guess.

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

There is quite a dispute going on at the moment over in Home Security about the sharing of manuals and software etc.

Don't I know it, you could say that I have had a PM or two about it

Mostly this stuff is freely available across the net anyway but some users would like the information restricted.Claiming breach of copyright etc.

The problem in this particular case is that the manual in question has the following text:

COPYRIGHT@ [Company name] Ltd. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system or translated in any other language in any form or by any means - electronic, mechanical or otherwise without prior written permission of [Company name] Ltd.

I am told that there has been a recent policy change within this company about issuing manuals willy nilly driven by a request from installers. Based on this in addition to the above text I think it would be unwise to use Boards.ie as a conduit for sharing this publication.

KoolKid

So are we talking about one manual or all manuals and guides?
Bear in mind a lot of what we send people are for obsolete systems where the panels and even the company who manufactured them no longer exist. Where does that leave things?
What about where the manufacturer themselves has them available online?
What about linking to an external site who has permission to host /these manuals?
Also what about the YouTube option as mentioned in the link above?
I'm also interested in the implications of this across the site. Is it a case of not being allowed to request /share any documentation that has copyright printed on it or would it just be at the request of the copyright holders?
As it stands it seems this is ok across lots of forums on Boards.ie.

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

So are we talking about one manual or all manuals and guides?

It is only the manual referred to above that was brought to my attention as a mod on the private security forum. Perhaps there are others with similar text?

In my opinion if the owner of a publication has no issue with their documentation being shared (or indeed encourage it) then there is no problem. However this case is quite different, the copyright text above is very unambiguous.

What about where the manufacturer themselves has them available online?

In my opinion you could direct a poster to the site where the owner of the publication makes it legally available. An illegally available copy would be a different matter.

Certain publications are the property of others, if they make it clear that their publication should not be shared in legal speak then it would be prudent to avoid seeing how they would enforce it in court. That's my take on it anyway.

KoolKid

Lots of documentation has that on it. Taking the one quoted literally means we couldn't even store it for our own retrieval.
There would also be documentation out there that has similar but the company and the system the manual is for no longer exists.
I think a lot of clarification may be needed. Also what is to happen about existing links to user manuals etc already linked to on Boards.ie?

Boards.ie: Niamh

Hi folks, I'll have to get back to you on this tomorrow after I've done a bit more reading on it.

KoolKid wrote: »

Would love to hear some unbiased opinions from outside of the industry.

I know nothing about Home Security aside from how to turn on/off my house alarm

KoolKid

Many thanks Niamh.

If every your alarm won't turn off you know where we are.:D

Home security aside, I am interested to hear how this affects the site as a whole. People requesting documentation like manuals , guides and data sheets etc would be fairly common on all topics.

2011

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

I know nothing about Home Security aside from how to turn on/off my house alarm

No knowledge of alarm systems is required.
The fact that this relates to an alarm system is irrelevant.
The only concern is that the document in question has the following text:

COPYRIGHT@ [Company name] Ltd. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system or translated in any other language in any form or by any means - electronic, mechanical or otherwise without prior written permission of [Company name] Ltd.

The question is is Boards.ie going to knowingly allow itself to be used to facilitate copyright infringement or not?
In almost every case this is a nonissue as most manufactures permit manuals, guides, data sheets etc. being freely circulated, in fact they encourage it as it promotes their product.

Beasty

Providing links to legit sites should be fine. Also we have been told that embedding YouTube videos is OK as it their problem not Boards'

KoolKid

There is also copyright notices on user manuals which on on most installation company's websites as well as wholesalers websites . This stuff is all over the internet.

So if a manual is on you tube embedded or linked it is definitely OK to share on Boards?

So the next question has to be how do we define Legit sites?

What about Cloud Servers or FTP sites etc?

KoolKid

2011 wrote: »

No knowledge of alarm systems is required.
The fact that this relates to an alarm system is irrelevant.
The only concern is that the document in question has the following text:

COPYRIGHT@ [Company name] Ltd. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system or translated in any other language in any form or by any means - electronic, mechanical or otherwise without prior written permission of [Company name] Ltd.

The question is is Boards.ie going to knowingly allow itself to be used to facilitate copyright infringement or not?
In almost every case this is a nonissue as most manufactures permit manuals, guides, data sheets etc. being freely circulated, in fact they encourage it as it promotes their product.

And does the company in question not permit it at all?

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

There is also copyright notices on user manuals which on on most installation company's websites as well as wholesalers websites . This stuff is all over the internet.

There is a lot of illegal content on the internet, this applies to music, porn, movies etc.
That does not make sharing it any less an illegal act.
This is no different to providing a link to a site where movies can be illegally downloaded.

The way I see it Boards.ie terms of use cover this already, more specifically this part:

It is your responsibility, bearing in mind the global nature of the Internet, to comply with all applicable laws which may apply to your use of boards.ie and to the material you post, including but not limited to those regarding acceptable content and online conduct. You agree to comply with all applicable laws regarding the transmission of technical data exported from the country in which you reside.

In this specific case in my opinion it is abundantly clear that circulating this manufactures publication without their "prior written permission" is an infringement of copyright and therefore is not just an illegal act, but in breach of the terms of use of Boards.ie

As already stated providing links to legit sites, Youtube and circulating material that is not protected by copyright is fine.

In summary, it is only an issue if it is illegal

KoolKid

Again how do you define a legit site for every link that is used.?
At the moment we don't even link to manuals on the forum it is by pm or email.
So now if a user requests a manual and someone posts I sent you PM with a link. Are we to be asked to share every PM?
Should we just post the links on thread instead?
That's going to upset those who wish to limit what information is being shared already.
The type of notice you post is on almost every bit of documentation and publication you can find.
Ironically, it on manuals available on some installers websites who are complaining about manuals being available via Boards.ie...

AFAIK similar notices are on newspapers etc but we are allowed quote sections and link to them.

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

Again how do you define a legit site for every link that is used.?

I don't think it is that complicated....
I am only talking about one specific document where the owner of a publication has made their position abundantly clear. This company has restricted the circulation of this particular document in recent times following a request for this from their customers.

In general if you are unsure whether a document can be legally circulated or not my advice would be not to circulate it.

Should we just post the links on thread instead?

There has never been an issue with linking to legitimate sites.

The type of notice you post is on almost every bit of documentation and publication you can find.

On that basis are you expecting someone to give you permission to ignore copyright?

Do you want Boards.ie to amend their terms of use to facilitate this?

KoolKid

My whole point is that this action has implications far beyond this one document.
Are you suggesting that we ignore similar notifications on other documentation?
Or do Boards.ie make a policy that users do not ask for or share any document or publication that bears such notices.
I am still curious how we are to police what sites or links shared by pm are legitimate or not.

Boards.ie: Niamh

Anything I say here relates to on-thread posts only. We cannot police content of PMs except in the case that a PM is reported to us by the recipient in which case Admins and staff can view the PM content and the report that comes with it. Having said that, anything illegal or otherwise questionable in a PM should be reported.

Manuals and software sharing
If manufacturers have posted the content of their own manual online, it can be reasonably expected that they want people to use it as a resource and it is there to be read and used. Linking to this kind of material is not a problem. Taking the content in it's entirety or large chunks of it from their site and copying it here, is a problem. If a particular line is pertinent to a problem or issue being discussed, a quote of the appropriate part with a link to the page it came from is ok.

Copyrighted material belongs to someone else; it is not our content or the users to reproduce regardless of whether it's a movie, a live sports event or a manual so posting or sharing copyrighted material should not occur.

Illegal streams are not permitted for example in Soccer or Films and following in the same vein, links to unofficial sources of manuals or software should also not be posted.

From the Films forum charter:

WAREZ/"WHERE CAN I GET A MOVIE FOR FREE"
Do not ask where you can download or stream a movie. Do not ask where you can get a movie illegally. If you want to see a movie, go to the cinema, buy the DVD, wait for it on TV, see it a friends. Contravene this rule and it's an immediate ban. The same penalty applies to anyone who posts links or otherwise advises users as to where movies can be downloaded or viewed illegally. Essentially, don't ask/don't tell.

From the Soccer forum:

Match streams are not allowed in the forum, as is the requesting for match streams in the open forum or via PM. Some time back the site received an edict stating that we can no longer permit match stream or match stream requests (even via the PM system). There is some flexibility when it comes to letting another poster know that a club has a pay per view system on the offical club site, but a good rule of thimb would be to not post or mention a link if you are unsure if it is against site rules.

YouTube - embedding of youtube videos is ok. If any copyright issues occur, YouTube will be the one to remove the video and the content will no longer be available to anyone.

I hope that answers your questions but if not, I'll be back

KoolKid

Many thanks Neimh.

Just a couple of clarifications if I may.
Is the request thread ok and users requesting manuals are doing nothing wrong?
If we ask a user to make contact via PM will this result in us having to explain ourselves every time? The reason I ask is I would imagine those opposed to sharing manuals would also be even more opposed to public links.

2011

Thanks Niamh, that is exactly the answer I expected.

KoolKid

Seems like we may now have the option to share manuals directly on thread also. Win Win all around I'd say.

fred funk }{

So - no more sharing sortware/firmware/manuals then? And only allowed link to these where available online from the copyright holder. Am I correct?

KoolKid

Everything Niamh is referring to is on thread.
Sounds to me we can now post legitimate links or links to you tube online and if by PM it's up to the recipient to report if they feel it's something that is illegal.
There are lots of legal ways to share these manuals and software.
There are plenty of sites to link to as well as you tube.
I presume there's nothing wrong with making contact with a user and going out to upgrade their software or drop them off a manual or give them a legitimate link to a site.
After all there are plenty of installer site's with copies of manuals on them also.
Another question would be what about Facebook pages.?

fred funk }{

KoolKid wrote: »

Everything Niamh is referring to is on thread.
Sounds to me we can now post legitimate links or links to you tube online and if by PM it's up to the recipient to report if they feel it's something that is illegal.
There are lots of legal ways to share these manuals and software.
There are plenty of sites to link to as well as you tube.
I presume there's nothing wrong with making contact with a user and going out to upgrade their software or drop them off a manual or give them a legitimate link to a site.
After all there are plenty of installer site's with copies of manuals on them also.
Another question would be what about Facebook pages.?

A lot of whataboutery. What other sites do is irrelevant to boards.ie.

You have asked for clarification and you have got it. You are no longer aloud to share this material like you have been and that includes copyrighted firmware/software.

Stoner

Just for the record. The direction the hss forum takes is not dictated by discussions raised on other threads.

It is not actually clear from the initial post here that the discussion about what is allowed in the hss forum is underway in a private form

As a mod of the hss forum I have by design no access to the private forum where only suppliers discuss supplier issues.

This private forum is not a discussion forum to discuss what is and is not allowed in the hss public forum.

A feedback thread raised about issues from another forum to determine and set out what is and is not allowed in another forum is bad form IMO and not the norm.

This is not necessarily obvious to Niamh.

The suppliers do not dictate the content on the hss forum. We had a number of issues when they did. Too much influence by people with a commercial interest was applied.


This private forum and now this feedback thread are IMO being used unfairly to influence the content on another thread.

I have received PMs about this. I have raised it with the CMODs it is under discussion. I'm following the correct line with boards.

We've no drive to stop non copyright material from being shared, or no drive to stop links to genuine copyright holders websites that host copyright material.

This is not a restriction on sharing all info.

But we clearly can't link to dodgy sites or upload copyright material to baords.

This is a very simple line IMO and it's been brought out of a private forum to a feedback forum about an issue not even raised on the forum in question.

In the future if anyone would like to take part how the hss forum is run please start the ball rolling in the hss forum.

Not in a forum that neither mod enters.

I don't think my position is unreasonable.

If it is Niamh please advise. I honestly don't think it was obvious that this is how this discussion played out on the opening thread.

fred funk }{

With all due respect Stoner, this is only about the public forum and not the private forum and any issues regarding the HSS forum have been openly discussed in here.

The HST forum was setup to discuss all things related to our trade and we (installers) thought this topic was very relevant to our trade and we have discussed it in there.

It was KoolKid who brought the issue in here so should your post not be directed towards him?

Stoner

Fair point.

I understand fred. I understand why the private security forum was set up.


The access to that forum was strickly monitored and some users were refused access to it.

We had similar issues in the public forum.

I would hope that you would recognize this as the case in the past and understand my attitude towards such any attempt to influence things through different means

I went as far as to call 2011 on this tonight to discuss why this is being raised and discussed privately and we had a good quick chat about it. I don't like to interrupt his busy schedule.

I understand it's part of that overall discussions that kicked off during the thread about disabling an alarm system , the one I received a number of PMs about

For the record as discussed with 2011 this is a no brainier it's a site rule

Painting this situation as just trying to share information and help everyone is one thing

As far a I'm concerned from my experience with the forum I wouldn't be surprised if certain manuals might be shared over others

Or

That there is a private discussion somewhere that's much more heated than this about industrial knowledge being made available or not and this feedback thread is being used as a patsy to settle and argument somewhere else.


I wouldn't be surprised if there is a commercial slant to this where some users don't want free advice robbing them from a work stream

This is all specualtion as I'm never in the private forum but I suspect that's how it rolls there. Be honest am I correct?

Regardless like I explained to the CMOD and 2011 it's a non runner a site rule etc we can't do it end of. Share non copyright all you want

You also can't stop someone offering genuine help.

But that help can't be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Again this has to be a no brainier like the situation last week. We have you apply common sense like we did last week. There is no need for further guidance. So if a post tells someone how to disable an Alarm from outside the house we'll ask you to take it down and that's at the mods discretion we don't need a Bible on it, just use your head as you did last week on that thread.

You might need that pointed out so be it, we don't need to assume there was intent behind it, just edit it and move on as we did last week
But everything doesn't need to be an argument to drag on and on.


I'll follow the CMODs advice and direction.

I would also like to highlight that some of the concluding comments on this thread do in fact directly make decisions about what can or can't be posted on a different forum without even letting Delly or I know. That's not noses being out of place, that just not using our intellect and experience of dealing with the dynamics of this forum.

KoolKid

I am happy with the clarification.
A couple of genuine questions..
What defines a legitimate site?
Would it be manufactures sites, distributers sites, company /installer sites or what others?
If the manufacturer no longer exists does that mean that the copyright is gone also?
If documentation has no copyright notice on it can we presume that is ok to share, and if so can it be linked to on thread?