Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

bucketybuck

GSPfan wrote: »

I reckon Rashford up top for a season will get you 20+ goals.

Thats wildly optimistic if you are talking about next season.

He is just a kid and will still be a kid next season, and he will have his rough patches as he continues his development. He has done well all things considered but 5 league goals from 32 games this season is probably an accurate reflection of what we can expect from a kid and that isn't suddenly going to jump to 20+ goals next season. (Please don't say he doesn't play up front, I don't agree with that sentiment at all).

And I do think we are where we are because of a reliance on kids like Rashford and Martial, who have 57 league games and only 9 goals between them. Give those 57 games to more established senior players of quality and I would expect 20/25 goals from them, which I have no doubt would have translated into plenty of extra points on the board and a top four position.

Pro. F

GSPfan wrote: »

I agree too but with that logic do we apply it to the sale of players too?

The reason I ask is because I think Martial is in trouble. He doesn't seem to do what Jose wants and I think he'll be sold. Will people give the same allowance for understanding the sale of Martial because he doesn't fit tactically? I hope so. I doubt it though. People will be screaming bloody murder.

I think you have to look at it differently for the sale of players. A very important part of the manager's job is to get the best out of the group of players he has. You'd give him leeway if he can't integrate them all, but at some stage you have to raise questions. With the quality of Martial, it should cause concern if Jose struggles to use him effectively.

What Mitch and Yabadabado say about only buying players that fit the team and tactics is spot on, but that should be a normal expectation. The fact that it needs to be pointed out shows how close we are to becoming a circus.

magnumbud

GSPfan wrote: »

The Dortmund team had a bomb go off the day before a match and injure a player. The match went ahead. This won't be postponed for an incident not connected.

it was the actual day of the match was it not and delayed it 24 hours?

cant see the game being postponed as has been said it will probably be a minutes silents/applause and the teams wearing black arm bands

GSPfan

Pro. F wrote: »

I think you have to look at it differently for the sale of players. A very important part of the manager's job is to get the best out of the group of players he has. You'd give him leeway if he can't integrate them all, but at some stage you have to raise questions. With the quality of Martial, it should cause concern if Jose struggles to use him effectively.

What Mitch and Yabadabado say about only buying players that fit the team and tactics is spot on, but that should be a normal expectation. The fact that it needs to be pointed out shows how close we are to becoming a circus.

See you've already started where I think others will follow. Applying rules that seem contradictory. If you fully agree we should be only buying players to fit a system then you should agree we sell players who definitely can't fit that system. I'm not certain Martial is definitely not suited to Jose but I suspect he is.

Pro. F

GSPfan wrote: »

See you've already started where I think others will follow. Applying rules that seem contradictory. If you fully agree we should be only buying players to fit a system then you should agree we sell players who definitely can't fit that system. I'm not certain Martial is definitely not suited to Jose but I suspect he is.

You are making this sound a lot more difficult than it is. Here's what I would expect of one of the highest paid managers in the world: Come up with a system that fits the excellent players we have, then only buy players that fit that system. There is nothing contradictory about the two arms of that approach.

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

You are making this sound a lot more difficult than it is. Here's what I would expect of one of the highest paid managers in the world: Come up with a system that fits the excellent players we have, then only buy players that fit that system. There is nothing contradictory about the two arms of that approach.

Why would you treat it as any either/or scenario.

Surely you start with a system best suited to the players available.

Then you look at the systems you can (and want to) transition to.

Then you look at higher caliber players that can fit the 'to be' system best - but hopefully fit the current system too.

Why restrict yourself to a system you may not want to go with, and continue to sign players restricting you to that.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

You are making this sound a lot more difficult than it is. Here's what I would expect of one of the highest paid managers in the world: Come up with a system that fits the excellent players we have, then only buy players that fit that system. There is nothing contradictory about the two arms of that approach.

What confuses me about Jose sometimes is he was the ultimate pragmatist, and while that has generally "negative" attachments, I think it ultimately means they know they might need to bend or adept themselves or their tactics to what is available.

Where a Klopp, Wenger, Van Gaal or Guardiola have this "one" idea about the team and how it plays, and that moulds their transfer policy and everything around the team.

Someone like Mourinho I always had as adaptable. That while there was core principles and an idea as to how the team would play, it would be flexible to each game, or what was available.

On one hand he's been totally inept at maximising the best from some talent we have in the squad, Martial, Shaw, Mhikitaryian, Pogba to an extent,Memphis, Rashford one might argue for large parts.

But then he has got some others playing much better, Herrera, Rojo, Jones, Valencia, Fellaini.

My expectations would be similar to yours, but in the course of the season I may be realising he can only apply that with "specific" types of player or characters, where maybe I'd assume he should be able to do it, with anyone.

GSPfan

Pro. F wrote: »

You are making this sound a lot more difficult than it is. Here's what I would expect of one of the highest paid managers in the world: Come up with a system that fits the excellent players we have, then only buy players that fit that system. There is nothing contradictory about the two arms of that approach.

See you are purposely making it simplistic to suit your narrative.

So come up with a system that suits every single player in the squad regardless of the fact that manager didn't buy those players and regardless of effort on the players part to fit into that system?

Seems like a very hard task to be honest. I can think of a few examples of managers who couldn't achieve that standard past and present. Pep Guardiola having multiple examples.

TheDoc

GSPfan wrote: »

See you are purposely making it simplistic to suit your narrative.

So come up with a system that suits every single player in the squad regardless of the fact that manager didn't buy those players and regardless of effort on the players part to fit into that system?

Seems like a very hard task to be honest. I can think of a few examples of managers who couldn't achieve that standard past and present. Pep Guardiola having multiple examples.

And yet Conte just won a league title doing it.

I don't know if its the greatest trick managers have pulled, but justifying poor performance or under performance/achievement by "well you havn't given me 300m to build a squad" seems a bit of a cop out.

Whatever about having an idea and working through time to put those parts together, you'd expect top managers to be flexable, adaptable and be able to maximise what they have available.

Lucas Hood

TheDoc wrote: »

And yet Conte just won a league title doing it.

I don't know if its the greatest trick managers have pulled, but justifying poor performance or under performance/achievement by "well you havn't given me 300m to build a squad" seems a bit of a cop out.

Whatever about having an idea and working through time to put those parts together, you'd expect top managers to be flexable, adaptable and be able to maximise what they have available.

Tbf Conte signed Kante , Luiz & Alonso.

bucketybuck

Why are people talking about Van Gaal?

RockSalto

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why are people talking about Van Gaal?

Because it helps to talk about traumatic experiences.

GSPfan

TheDoc wrote: »

And yet Conte just won a league title doing it.

I don't know if its the greatest trick managers have pulled, but justifying poor performance or under performance/achievement by "well you havn't given me 300m to build a squad" seems a bit of a cop out.

Whatever about having an idea and working through time to put those parts together, you'd expect top managers to be flexable, adaptable and be able to maximise what they have available.

You have verged into a totally different topic there. Conte has done fantastic. No arguement. Jose has underachieved this season. No argument.

But when it comes to this Summers transfers I do not see a difference what selling a player to fit a system is to buying a player to fit a system.

Put it this way, if Jose came out and said he's selling Fellaini and Martial because he can't fit them into next seasons system would anyone comment on the reason for the Fellaini sale? They would go mad about the Martial sale though. But I'm saying it shouldn't matter if neither fit his system.

TheDoc

GSPfan wrote: »

You have verged into a totally different topic there. Conte has done fantastic. No arguement. Jose has underachieved this season. No argument.

But when it comes to this Summers transfers I do not see a difference what selling a player to fit a system is to buying a player to fit a system.

Put it this way, if Jose came out and said he's selling Fellaini and Martial because he can't fit them into next seasons system would anyone comment on the reason for the Fellaini sale? They would go mad about the Martial sale though. But I'm saying it shouldn't matter if neither fit his system.

Well the issue there is you only get the managers twisted view on why the player doesn't fit the system and as we never get the full truth it's down the speculation.

I think your theory is correct. We can somewhat "assume" what limitations Fellaini would have, yet its not obvious with Martial, a clear great talent in a developement stage where you can mould him into anything in an attacking sense.

So the query would be "why don't they fit the system" and questions about the system in general. Like what is Mourinho even doing with our team, that would be so limiting in terms of player ability, apart from the obvious issue he is having dealing with some characters/personalities.

He doesn't execute a pressing game that requires energy and stamina like a Liverpool or Totenham. He isn't using a system thats pure exploitation on the counter attack that requires mental pace and incision and he isn't deploying a system of possesion dominance that requires technically gifted midfielder to thread balls and crazy movement.

It's probably a clash of the last two, and there is plenty in the squad to do that.

But if I'm following the discussion properly, there is disagreement in terms of if its valid to dump players because they don't fit a system the manager decrees, or should the manager be more flexible in terms of incorporating the player, or amending the system.

I lean towards the later, when there is clear talent and potential in sight, ie. our squad.

TheDoc

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Tbf Conte signed Kante , Luiz & Alonso.

Alonso being the only priority target acquired I believe.

Kante was signed by the club and was planned regardless of the manager put in place, Luiz was a last minute purchase (ergo not a target) and Batshuayi looked weird too.

But my point being he came in, tried something that didn't work, then changed and it did work, but all the while utilising what he had at his disposal. Granted there was good tools to use, still, he had to do it and he did.

Pro. F

GSPfan wrote: »

See you are purposely making it simplistic to suit your narrative.

So come up with a system that suits every single player in the squad regardless of the fact that manager didn't buy those players and regardless of effort on the players part to fit into that system?

I specifically addressed that issue: "You'd give him leeway if he can't integrate them all, but at some stage you have to raise questions. With the quality of Martial, it should cause concern if Jose struggles to use him effectively."

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why would you treat it as any either/or scenario.

Surely you start with a system best suited to the players available.

Then you look at the systems you can (and want to) transition to.

Then you look at higher caliber players that can fit the 'to be' system best - but hopefully fit the current system too.

Why restrict yourself to a system you may not want to go with, and continue to sign players restricting you to that.

No reason why you can't progress from one system to another and so on. My point was about not wasting high quality players just because they don't fit some system you have decided you want.

Cantona's Collars

Pro. F wrote: »

No reason why you can't progress from one system to another and so on. My point was about not wasting high quality players just because they don't fit some system you have decided you want.

Antonio Conte drills different systems into his players at training, this ensures that if he changes it during a game they can fit into whatever system he wants seamlessly. Players shouldn't have the excuse of not being able to play in certain systems.

Lord TSC

GSPfan wrote: »

I 100% agree and disagree with you.

Saying its part of why we are where we are is confusing as he hasn't played there???

I reckon Rashford up top for a season will get you 20+ goals. Now that's with a scenario of a fully functioning team behind him. This last 5 games with a team limping to a finish is no indication of anything with Rashford. Only an indication that Jose needs to manage better next year for these things.

To clarify, when I say "part of the problem", I meant relying on young players full of potential in general. Not just Rashford. Potential is great, but it shouldn't be what we rely on. It should be the back up plan.

Pro. F

zerks wrote: »

Antonio Conte drills different systems into his players at training, this ensures that if he changes it during a game they can fit into whatever system he wants seamlessly. Players shouldn't have the excuse of not being able to play in certain systems.

It is just a reality that players have specific roles they're suited to and others they aren't physically, menatally or technically able to fulfill as well. No amount of drilling is going to make Naymar be able to play as a target man CF, or Diego Costa as a winger. That is just a fact of life.

TheDoc

zerks wrote: »

Antonio Conte drills different systems into his players at training, this ensures that if he changes it during a game they can fit into whatever system he wants seamlessly. Players shouldn't have the excuse of not being able to play in certain systems.

That's the crux of the issue though.

I'm sure Martial can play in those games where we play a back six. He is a fit guy, he can get up and down. But is that suited to him? Is he best utilised there?

Its then well do I play this system that doesn't maximise some players, or do I change to maybe maximise them.

I don't think there is a clear answer, but as always something in the middle getting the best of both worlds.

We have the tools to play a counter attacking system, devastatingly in big games and to be fair a tactic Jose was historically good at. Problem this season is there is too much ground to cover when we retain possession. Playing with our wide players as fullbacks hoping they can dribble the length of the pitch, opposition players easily packing and snuffing it out. So we have **** all attacking threat in these big games.

Where in reality what might be needed alongside our striker, is taking someone like MArtial, and telling him to stay up. Trust a Darmian or a Blind to work it out 1v1 or even 2v1 with assistance from midfield, and leave Martial actually more forward to exploit a proper break, or give their fullback something to think about. Gary Neville refers to it as "cheating" when he talks about Hazard for example, but I'm under no illusions that is Conte telling him to stick up a bit, don't fret tracking back, because when we win the ball, your going to cause havoc on the break.

I'm actually surprised as I've said before there hasn't been more panic or outcry with Martial's form. Whatever about his perceived attitude, unbelievable talent there, so much more then Rashford for me, and yet no one seems to overly freaking out about it? Thought many would be having with Martial this season what I had with Memphis.

The pure fear of wasting a potentially incredible talent.

But Martial is only one of many that has slumped under Jose.

GSPfan

Lord TSC wrote: »

To clarify, when I say "part of the problem", I meant relying on young players full of potential in general. Not just Rashford. Potential is great, but it shouldn't be what we rely on. It should be the back up plan.

I agree with you there too. But I suppose in my scenario you'd have Bale and Griezmann either side of him and Pogba Herrera and Fabinho behind him. Lots of experience there to support some young blood.

Out of interest If we bought Mbappe and put him up top would you feel the same? I only ask because id be against doing that. I only support the idea of playing Rashford there because it allows us to spend money on other areas I think need more attention.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

What confuses me about Jose sometimes is he was the ultimate pragmatist, and while that has generally "negative" attachments, I think it ultimately means they know they might need to bend or adept themselves or their tactics to what is available.

Where a Klopp, Wenger, Van Gaal or Guardiola have this "one" idea about the team and how it plays, and that moulds their transfer policy and everything around the team.

Someone like Mourinho I always had as adaptable. That while there was core principles and an idea as to how the team would play, it would be flexible to each game, or what was available.

On one hand he's been totally inept at maximising the best from some talent we have in the squad, Martial, Shaw, Mhikitaryian, Pogba to an extent,Memphis, Rashford one might argue for large parts.

But then he has got some others playing much better, Herrera, Rojo, Jones, Valencia, Fellaini.

My expectations would be similar to yours, but in the course of the season I may be realising he can only apply that with "specific" types of player or characters, where maybe I'd assume he should be able to do it, with anyone.

I think what it is is Jose needs very athletic players for his front four. A CF that can hold the ball up (and preferably threaten with pace and work hard defensively too) and then three attacking midfielders who can cover loads of ground and are tactically intelligent with where they run.

We don't have a nice compact attacking shape, so the front four need to run a lot to get into positions to link up with each other. Then Jose still expects them to press the opposition when there's a turnover (without much help from the back six), so that requires more running. And then when we retreat to defend deep, he has used the wide attacking players nearly as wing-backs - so even more ground to cover.

Like you say, he's flexible in some ways, but what he seems to need from his players is quite a specific set of skills and attributes.

Lithium93_

Not sure if it's been posted already, apologies for doing a Zerks if it is. José via the United Facebook page put out a short and sweet statement regarding last night.

We are all very sad about the tragic events last night; we cannot take out of our minds and our hearts the victims and their families.
We have a job to do and we will fly to Sweden to do that job. It is a pity we cannot fly with the happiness that we always have before a big game.
I know, even during my short time here, that the people of Manchester will pull together as one.

StringerBell

RobertKK wrote: »

There is also talk that Barcelona would sell Neymar for £100 million.
They need money and less wages to give Messi what he is demanding with 1 year left on Messi's contract.

I'd put money on Suarez being pushed out before Neymar

Trigger

StringerBell wrote: »

I'd put money on Suarez being pushed out before Neymar

I don't think they would get the same figures for Suarez tbh. If they are looking to make money to bring in more players in different areas I'd say Neymar would be the one to move on as they could definitely sell him for 100m+

Lord TSC

GSPfan wrote: »

I agree with you there too. But I suppose in my scenario you'd have Bale and Griezmann either side of him and Pogba Herrera and Fabinho behind him. Lots of experience there to support some young blood.

Out of interest If we bought Mbappe and put him up top would you feel the same? I only ask because id be against doing that. I only support the idea of playing Rashford there because it allows us to spend money on other areas I think need more attention.

I wouldn't want Mbappe for two reasons; one is his age, and I think we'd be nuts to splash €110m on a one season wonder. And two, we bought Mbappe two summers ago in Martial, and I reckon he's highly likely to be sold off this summer. Buying Mbappe, imo, would be a massive, massive mistake, especially when I think you could get, for example, Lukaku and Sanchez for the same price...

TheDoc

StringerBell wrote: »

I'd put money on Suarez being pushed out before Neymar

No one is taking Suarez for a big fee at 30 in all honesty.

Neymar is their big asset. To be honest I'm always suspect of these "Barca to sell for Financial reasons" stories. They seem to come up every summer and they still go blow their load on average players. Didn't they drop like 60m or something on Gomes and mmmmtities

TheDoc

Lord TSC wrote: »

I wouldn't want Mbappe for two reasons; one is his age, and I think we'd be nuts to splash €110m on a one season wonder. And two, we bought Mbappe two summers ago in Martial, and I reckon he's highly likely to be sold off this summer. Buying Mbappe, imo, would be a massive, massive mistake, especially when I think you could get, for example, Lukaku and Sanchez for the same price...

This is my thinking, Mbappe is basically last years Martial which we got.

Literally "the new Martial"

And if there is issues making Martial work not sure how Mbappe would work any better. Him,Belotti and no doubt the Ajax lad after he has a good game tomorrow are three "prospects" we will get linked with, but smart money would be looking for something more established and safer.

Me and you both know we just need to get Tielmanns and Barbosa and enjoy all the trebles

Lord TSC

TheDoc wrote: »

This is my thinking, Mbappe is basically last years Martial which we got.

Literally "the new Martial"

And if there is issues making Martial work not sure how Mbappe would work any better. Him,Belotti and no doubt the Ajax lad after he has a good game tomorrow are three "prospects" we will get linked with, but smart money would be looking for something more established and safer.

Admittedly, I've not seen much of Belotti, but what I have seen makes the massive price tag look absolutely absurd.

StringerBell

astradave wrote: »

I don't think they would get the same figures for Suarez tbh. If they are looking to make money to bring in more players in different areas I'd say Neymar would be the one to move on as they could definitely sell him for 100m+

Suarez is 30, on mega money has the same length of time on his contract as Neymar.

He can be replaced by either Neymar or Messi, more then likely Messi as he gets older and needs to adapt his game ala Ronaldo. He can be sold to China which will bring in both mega money for Barca,and mega money for himself. He could go to Bayern which would not bring in as much money obviously but would not be a step down really and he would be the main man again.

There are a number of other clubs, PSG, Juve etc Chelsea even a possibility if Costa is off imo.

I have a feeling they will work out something so they can keep all three (Neymar, Messi, Suarez) but though I can understand why Neymar is touted as a potential transfer for a couple of clubs I think Barca understand that he is the future more so then the other two right now, the crest of the wave is being reached as the other two head into their 30's but Messi is absolutely the main man at that club and I cannot see them letting him go, so for me that only leaves Suarez to be pushed out.

A big fee would be commanded and it would be removing 230k+ a week from their wage bill. Nothing to be sniffed at. They have a bit of dead wood to shift and replace, I think they will want to hold on to Neymar though.

Lord TSC

What I'm reading is we'd have a good chance of signing Suarez if we wanted :pac:

Jayop

Lord TSC wrote: »

What I'm reading is we'd have a good chance of signing Suarez if we wanted :pac:

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

jayo26

Defoe going to Bournemouth seemingly that's another player Edward Woodward has missed out on.

allthedoyles

The massive number of drawn games says it all

TheDoc

jayo26 wrote: »

Defoe going to Bournemouth seemingly that's another player Edward Woodward has missed out on.

haha remember when Defoe was touted for us. That was a very funny day. I enjoyed that day.

jayo26

allthedoyles wrote: »

The massive number of drawn games says it all

Says we drew alot of games?

Hococop

Big Sam quit palace, odd one

jayo26

Hococop wrote: »

Big Sam quit palace, odd one

Barca job I bet

pjohnson

Hococop wrote: »

Big Sam quit palace, odd one

Not announced by Palace

jackwigan

Lord TSC wrote: »

For the record, I think putting Rashford as our #1 going forward is a disaster of an idea, and is part of why we are where we are.

He's got a world of potential. But he's so far from the finished product. We NEED a striker who guarantees us 20+ goals a season at a canter, and Rashford is not that yet.

Harry Kane, at any cost.

Lithium93_

jackwigan wrote: »

Harry Kane, at any cost.

He ain't leaving Spurs anytime soon, and why would he, they are on the up a whole lot quicker than United.

United are also on the up, albeit at a snail's pace.

xtal191

We're ****ed, the cow has spoken

https://twitter.com/omaakatugba/status/866757890673184770

ElChe32

My next door neighbour's dog with the gammy leg has predicted United to win tomorrow.

Hococop

xtal191 wrote: »

We're ****ed, the cow has spoken

https://twitter.com/omaakatugba/status/866757890673184770

How many ha it predicated?

jackwigan

Lithium93_ wrote: »

He ain't leaving Spurs anytime soon, and why would he, they are on the up a whole lot quicker than United.

United are also on the up, albeit at a snail's pace.

United can pay him more for one. Sure Spurs are the better team right now but Dortmund were better than Munich for a few years not so long ago and then they sold some of their best directly to their rivals, a bigger club.

You take him out of their team and into United's and I think it's United who would be challenging properly for the title. All season long we've created chances but not had someone bar Zlatan to finish.

Makes all the sense in the world to me to use the financial muscle advantage and sign one of the few English players who are world class. And yes he would come at a huge price but personally would consider it value if he continues the form he's shown for 3 years now.

Lithium93_

Minute's silence and black armbands tomorrow night.

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/867064127172358146

UEFA has agreed to a minute's silence and black armbands during the Europa League final in respect of the terrible events in Manchester.

Jayop

jackwigan wrote: »

United can pay him more for one. Sure Spurs are the better team right now but Dortmund were better than Munich for a few years not so long ago and then they sold some of their best directly to their rivals, a bigger club.

You take him out of their team and into United's and I think it's United who would be challenging properly for the title. All season long we've created chances but not had someone bar Zlatan to finish.

Makes all the sense in the world to me to use the financial muscle advantage and sign one of the few English players who are world class. And yes he would come at a huge price but personally would consider it value if he continues the form he's shown for 3 years now.

This really. Spurs are excellent at the moment and clearly ahead of United in the league by way of finishing off crap teams that we haven't, but Kanes 29 goals in 30 games was a massive part of that. United have created a tonne of chances this year and someone like Kane finishing them off would have us as much as 20 points better off. I have little doubt that Kane playing for us this year would have turned 10 off those draws into wins.

The mother of all match threads required....

Rayne Wooney

Jayop wrote: »

This really. Spurs are excellent at the moment and clearly ahead of United in the league by way of finishing off crap teams that we haven't, but Kanes 29 goals in 30 games was a massive part of that. United have created a tonne of chances this year and someone like Kane finishing them off would have us as much as 20 points better off. I have little doubt that Kane playing for us this year would have turned 10 off those draws into wins.

Zlatan did fine up front, the secondary players not contributing enough was our problem. Deli Alli scored 18 goals, Martial, Mata, Rashford and Mkhitaryan scored 19 goals.