Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

Giggsy11

Drumpot wrote: »

Very disappointing but not completely surprising. Jose correctly prioritised the semi final.... didn't want anymore injuries which is correct.

If united win the europa , asides from Chelsea united will of had the Best season of an English team.

I bet united fans will be happier then City fans with Pep. Bet we are happier then spurs fans finishing second. Getting Europe by winning the europa is better then finishing 2nd and celebrating nothing other then qualification.

United went half the league season without losing, it was very much the disasterous start that had us chasing a champions league spot for the season. I would say that's progress and with a little tweaking we will be close next season.

Rightly or wrongly, I think it's harder to motivate top players to fight for anything other then a cup. Top 4 celebrations are for arsenal/Liverpool players/fans, united are correctly focusing on trophies.

Of course it would be nice to have the league as insurance for champo league but we can't expect to have everything go our way...

Very good post. Winning Europa and qualifying for CL is better than finishing in CL places.

Giggsy11

Pro. F wrote: »

Don't know where you've been all season but we've struggled with Pogba, Bailly and Ibra playing too.

With Pogba our struggles was finishing chances (Except against Liverpool or Chelsea away game), without Pogba our struggles are creating chances.

Lord TSC

Pro. F wrote: »

Don't know where you've been all season but we've struggled with Pogba, Bailly and Ibra playing too.

Watching the games, it's fairly different levels of struggles.

Thats two games in the last week we've not had Pogba in midfield, and two games we've looked utterly clueless in terms of trying to do anything. When he's in the team, we're getting a dozen chances and struggling to finish them. Without him, we aren't creating anything.

We look a far, far stronger unit when those three are the spine of the team. There's issues, but ones that are far easier to address. Add a proper finisher and not rely on Ibra so much, and a team with Pogba and Bailly flourishes. So long as we're relying on Rooney and Carrick as creative forces, then we're going to be on a hiding to nothing...

Minderbinder

bucketybuck wrote: »

Minderbinder wrote: »

It's good that nobody said that then.

You did.

Its a nice but rather boring sentiment to go on about what Rooney has done for the club in the past and lambast the younger fans for "what have you done lately", but unless you are happy with Rooney's performances and want him to remain an important first team player then its all just willy waving on your part.

Do you really think he has been playing at a top standard? Do you really think he should continue to be a first teamer with that level of performance? Do you really think we will improve next season if we continue to carry all these players who aren't playing well?

If you want another season of Rooney at United and more of those performances then fair enough, but if you don't then I guess you are just a modern fan.

Show me where I said he can't be criticised.

My point is that he is being singled out and basically picked on and it is out of proportion compared to the treatment other players get for playing just as poorly, players who have achieved next to nothing at the club. Giggs kind of got the same treatment though so I suppose I shouldn't be that surprised.

TheDoc

Giggsy11 wrote: »

It was meaningless. We had Arsenal, Spurs and Southampton away in the last 4 games, Top 4 was gone and Europa is very much possible.

Maybe if we leave "We are ManUtd, we should win every game" cliche and think with bit of context then it would be helpful.

It would be foolishness to play strong team when we have Semi finals away leg on thursday. Players like Bailly, Valencia, Pogba are clearly tired, why play them in league game and risk injuries? Or even accumulation of fatigue?

Not sure I'm seeing anyone advocate that last paragraph. Yesterday was still a strong team. Sure some returning players from injury, but still good players there. We had one debutant, one "kid". The rest are supposedly good players.

Leaving aside the manager made his bed with this mess via his squad management, which really needs looking at big time in the summer, and if he doesn't, someone needs to tell him. It's catching so many managers out, but he should know better.

There is no "We are Manu" cliche happening here, although like I said accepting any defeat in the league as "no big deal" is just a reflection on the sad state of affairs. Especially in May.

My issue is if the game was such a dead rubber for us, if it was so unimportant and our priorities elsewhere, then why not go there a bit braver, bit more courage and a bit more belief in the players. This is Arsenal....Arsenal. Self imploding this year, in absolute chaos and anarchy. A defence that is a bag of jittery spiders. A midfield that is as ineffectual as anything in the top 6.

His tunnel vision on focusing entirely on the opposition to nullify them, while not looking to exploit our own strengths is just concerning. Every time.

Like I said yesterday, we get a 1-0 win and it's labelled a masterclass, lose 0-2 and it's poor. It's always on that knife edge when you play like that.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing and all, but I just think there is so many ways to approach and play a game, so many ways to skin a cat. And in many of the big games thus far, Jose has gone with basically the obvious route causing no surprise to anyone, and it typically being the most pathetic way (for me personally).

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

pathetic

Darn, and you were so close to the end too.

Kerrydude1981

secman wrote: »

Manager set the tone for that lethargic lack lustre team performance., 3rd let alone 4th was there for the taking as pool, city and Arsenal are as bad as us.
Sad to see really, .

Ya,the Premier League needs a wake up call,the more money that has come into the league the more teams have gone backwards in Champions League

Going by this season,Utd,Arsenal,Pool and City dont deserve to be in the Champions League next season.

bucketybuck

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Ya,the Premier League needs a wake up call,the more money that has come into the league the more teams have gone backwards in Champions League

I think people overthink this, a lot of the big clubs are at a low ebb right now but thats natural in football, these things do ebb and flow.

Most of the top managers in the game are now in England at the very biggest clubs and backed up by some serious money, I would fully expect the levels of quality and performance to improve over the next 5 years to the point that the likes of United and Chelsea are significant threats again.

Pro. F

Lord TSC wrote: »

Watching the games, it's fairly different levels of struggles.

Thats two games in the last week we've not had Pogba in midfield, and two games we've looked utterly clueless in terms of trying to do anything. When he's in the team, we're getting a dozen chances and struggling to finish them. Without him, we aren't creating anything.

We look a far, far stronger unit when those three are the spine of the team. There's issues, but ones that are far easier to address. Add a proper finisher and not rely on Ibra so much, and a team with Pogba and Bailly flourishes. So long as we're relying on Rooney and Carrick as creative forces, then we're going to be on a hiding to nothing...

Are you talking about the games against Arsenal and City? Because they were little different to other games against the bigger teams this season where we've struggled to create chances, even when Pogba has been playing.

If you're talking about the game against Swansea, we did actually create chances and again had complaints about finishing.

Giggsy11

TheDoc wrote: »

Not sure I'm seeing anyone advocate that last paragraph. Yesterday was still a strong team. Sure some returning players from injury, but still good players there. We had one debutant, one "kid". The rest are supposedly good players.

3 players who haven't started a game in 7 weeks, Carrick who is next to Fellaini in pecking order, Rooney who is in god knows what position or pecking order.

Leaving aside the manager made his bed with this mess via his squad management, which really needs looking at big time in the summer, and if he doesn't, someone needs to tell him. It's catching so many managers out, but he should know better.

He didn't rate Depay, big deal. Schneiderlin wanted out and he was sold. It's not a big deal that Jose didn't rate those players. His squad management means we are phasing out Rooney which is good in my book.

There is no "We are Manu" cliche happening here, although like I said accepting any defeat in the league as "no big deal" is just a reflection on the sad state of affairs. Especially in May.

Maybe you are disconnected with reality. We have given up on league and that showed with team selection. It's logical way of thinking rather than being emotional.

My issue is if the game was such a dead rubber for us, if it was so unimportant and our priorities elsewhere, then why not go there a bit braver, bit more courage and a bit more belief in the players. This is Arsenal....Arsenal. Self imploding this year, in absolute chaos and anarchy. A defence that is a bag of jittery spiders. A midfield that is as ineffectual as anything in the top 6.

Arsenal at home are very good side. Not sure why they are underrated here. Away from home? What you said is correct but at home they will beat any team in the league.

We have arguably the best away record with the way Jose set up, why not back himself? Why throw everything away? We played with weaker team but with the same set up and somehow failed to win. Big deal.

His tunnel vision on focusing entirely on the opposition to nullify them, while not looking to exploit our own strengths is just concerning. Every time.

Against top 6 teams or every team? Against Top 6 teams at home or away? Because your point is true for only top 6 away games.

Like I said yesterday, we get a 1-0 win and it's labelled a masterclass, lose 0-2 and it's poor. It's always on that knife edge when you play like that.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing and all, but I just think there is so many ways to approach and play a game, so many ways to skin a cat. And in many of the big games thus far, Jose has gone with basically the obvious route causing no surprise to anyone, and it typically being the most pathetic way (for me personally).

Fair enough.

jacool

TheDoc wrote: »

Think I saw a stat last night, hope I'm remembering it, that a Jose team has not scored against a top six side in two years. That sounds ludicrous, assume it meant away fixtures.

The actual statistic was that the last time a Jose Mourinho managed Premier League side scored an away goal against a top 6 PL side was in January 2015. It was the 5-3 defeat to Spurs on New Year's Day.

TheDoc

jacool wrote: »

The actual statistic was that the last time a Jose Mourinho managed Premier League side scored an away goal against a top 6 PL side was in January 2015. It was the 5-3 defeat to Spurs on New Year's Day.

That's the one

Hococop

jacool wrote: »

The actual statistic was that the last time a Jose Mourinho managed Premier League side scored an away goal against a top 6 PL side was in January 2015. It was the 5-3 defeat to Spurs on New Year's Day.

That game cemented kanes status as a top striker

Giggsy11

jacool wrote: »

The actual statistic was that the last time a Jose Mourinho managed Premier League side scored an away goal against a top 6 PL side was in January 2015. It was the 5-3 defeat to Spurs on New Year's Day.

I think that is bit out of context/misleading

In 2014-15 season, after Spurs away they played only against Arsenal away.

In 2015-16 they played against City, Spurs, Leicester away before getting sacked. They scored against Leicester.

TheDoc

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I think that is bit out of context/misleading

In 2014-15 season, after Spurs away they played only against Arsenal away.

In 2015-16 they played against City, Spurs, Leicester away before getting sacked. They scored against Leicester.

Here are the fixtures involved

0-0 vs Arsenal
0-1 vs Arsenal
0-3 vs Manchester City
0-0 vs Tottenham
0-0 vs Liverpool
0-4 vs Chelsea
0-1 vs Chelsea
0-0 vs Manchester City
0-2 vs Arsenal

One of the potential conclusions here is that Mourinho in those games is probably the most obvious coach. That he might need to get a bit more creative and inventive when it comes to those games.

There is some risk reward when it comes to playing rivals. I believe anyway leagues are won and lost based on beating the 14 other teams in the league consistently, and you can drop your points in the big games. But to give you that affordability and slack, you need to pick up points in some of these games, as you will have a silly result (or in our case, ****ing loads)

I think there is much more gained from winning against a rival, than is lost from losing, or negated from a draw. I know that "sounds" like a bleeding obvious thing to say, but how many times in a big game do you hear "important they weren't beat today". I don't subscribe to that.

I think the injection of confidence and belief that comes from a win against a rival is superior to the take homes from a draw or the impacts of a loss. While losing a certain way can be severely damaging, a good win can and should be a catalyst or a catapult for form and putting a string of things together.

I think for a new manager or a team like ours, some good wins against big teams will be important for everyone involved for every aspect, and is much more important than "just not getting beat".

The caveat to all off this is if the manager just simply believes his team cannot play another way in these games, well then not much you can do. Some would mark organisation and defensive strength as the first step in building a strong team. So it's entirely plausible that with some summer work and pre-season we might see something different next season. Just not holding my breathe, but I can see it being possible.

Giggsy11

TheDoc wrote: »

Here are the fixtures involved

0-0 vs Arsenal
0-1 vs Arsenal
0-3 vs Manchester City
0-0 vs Tottenham
0-0 vs Liverpool
0-4 vs Chelsea
0-1 vs Chelsea
0-0 vs Manchester City
0-2 vs Arsenal

One of the potential conclusions here is that Mourinho in those games is probably the most obvious coach. That he might need to get a bit more creative and inventive when it comes to those games.

There is some risk reward when it comes to playing rivals. I believe anyway leagues are won and lost based on beating the 14 other teams in the league consistently, and you can drop your points in the big games. But to give you that affordability and slack, you need to pick up points in some of these games, as you will have a silly result (or in our case, ****ing loads)

I think there is much more gained from winning against a rival, than is lost from losing, or negated from a draw. I know that "sounds" like a bleeding obvious thing to say, but how many times in a big game do you hear "important they weren't beat today". I don't subscribe to that.

I think the injection of confidence and belief that comes from a win against a rival is superior to the take homes from a draw or the impacts of a loss. While losing a certain way can be severely damaging, a good win can and should be a catalyst or a catapult for form and putting a string of things together.

I think for a new manager or a team like ours, some good wins against big teams will be important for everyone involved for every aspect, and is much more important than "just not getting beat".

The caveat to all off this is if the manager just simply believes his team cannot play another way in these games, well then not much you can do. Some would mark organisation and defensive strength as the first step in building a strong team. So it's entirely plausible that with some summer work and pre-season we might see something different next season. Just not holding my breathe, but I can see it being possible.

I didn't include games this season, I was talking about his Chelsea days. Not sure why you included some cup games and also community shield which is neutral venue.

Lets see if we include all games then
1-1 Vs Liverpool at Anfield, League cup semi finals
2-0 vs Spurs. League cup finals

If we include complete 2014-15 season then
City 1-1 Chelsea
ManUtd 1-1 Chelsea
Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
Spurs 5-3 Chelsea
Arsenal 0-0 Chelsea

That's a good record and doesn't fit your narrative. Lost only to Spurs and scored in every away game except Arsenal.

It's obvious you have fixed your mind on Jose and will view everything from that point of view.

RobertKK

Win the Europa League and I will be happy with this season.

Not happy with the league but would be happy with two trophies.

But a long way to go yet and it won't be easy.

beakerjoe

We have improved this year, no doubt but there is huge room for improvement. If we dont win the europa league and claim UCL football next year the season will be a failure for me but I am happy we have made positive steps in the right direction.

I imagine lots of changes at OT next year. Smalling, Jones, Carrick, Martial, Young, Shaw, Zlatan ,Rooney and DDG could all potentially go (Ive bolded the ones who are almost certainly gone and thats 3 players straight away we need replacing)

TheDoc

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I didn't include games this season, I was talking about his Chelsea days. Not sure why you included some cup games and also community shield which is neutral venue.

Lets see if we include all games then
1-1 Vs Liverpool at Anfield, League cup semi finals
2-0 vs Spurs. League cup finals

If we include complete 2014-15 season then
City 1-1 Chelsea
ManUtd 1-1 Chelsea
Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
Spurs 5-3 Chelsea
Arsenal 0-0 Chelsea

That's a good record and doesn't fit your narrative. Lost only to Spurs and scored in every away game except Arsenal.

It's obvious you have fixed your mind on Jose and will view everything from that point of view.

It's not my narrative and it's not me twisting. It's a statistic that emerged last night and is being discussed a bit this morning and is forming a narrative elsewhere alright. But its not a stretch to reach some conclusions from it.

The reason I imagine the current stat is doing the rounds is because of the timeframe. Fail to bit spurs and it will hit 1000 minutes. These are the sort of "figures" that make interesting stats.

That's how those sort of interesting stats work. Not as catchy when you go "here is Mourinhos record in the last two years and 4 months".

So sorry I'll stop you there making out I somehow made this stat up or went digging for it. It was plastered everywhere yesterday and again this morning.

Giggsy11

TheDoc wrote: »

It's not my narrative and it's not me twisting. It's a statistic that emerged last night and is being discussed a bit this morning and is forming a narrative elsewhere alright. But its not a stretch to reach some conclusions from it.

The reason I imagine the current stat is doing the rounds is because of the timeframe. Fail to bit spurs and it will hit 1000 minutes. These are the sort of "figures" that make interesting stats.

That's how those sort of interesting stats work. Not as catchy when you go "here is Mourinhos record in the last two years and 4 months".

So sorry I'll stop you there making out I somehow made this stat up or went digging for it. It was plastered everywhere yesterday and again this morning.

Then why did you ignore game against Leicester City last season when Chelsea scored away goal? Why is this year Top 6 should be applied for games 2 seasons ago?

This year we haven't done well away from home against top 6 side when it comes to scoring goals, our whole season we have struggled to score goals but to extend that run to his Chelsea side (when they won the league) is madness when they played only 1 away game after Spurs defeat that season. 2015-16 season was a disaster for so many reasons.

Anyways the sample size is pathetic in 2014-15, negligible in 2015-16 (they still scored away against Champions that season). This season it's poor though.

JamboMac

Since it's most likely we will be facing Ajax as long as all goes well. Who should we ultimately fear of their players?

jacool

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Then why did you ignore game against Leicester City last season when Chelsea scored away goal? Why is this year Top 6 should be applied for games 2 seasons ago?

This year we haven't done well away from home against top 6 side when it comes to scoring goals, our whole season we have struggled to score goals but to extend that run to his Chelsea side (when they won the league) is madness when they played only 1 away game after Spurs defeat that season. 2015-16 season was a disaster for so many reasons.

Anyways the sample size is pathetic in 2014-15, negligible in 2015-16 (they still scored away against Champions that season). This season it's poor though.

Its not "TheDoc" - it was the BBC on MOTD2 last night. They may have "twisted" things to suit the narrative for the post match discussion.

TheDoc

JamboMac wrote: »

Since it's most likely we will be facing Ajax as long as all goes well. Who should we ultimately fear of their players?

Just as I check back to see new posts. Was just reading this.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2707984-scouting-notebook-ajaxs-dolberg-sanchez-de-ligt-kluivert-on-path-to-glory

Nothing major, the headline a bit misleading, but just some info about some of the key players this season.

beno619

Giggsy11 wrote: »

With Pogba our struggles was finishing chances (Except against Liverpool or Chelsea away game), without Pogba our struggles are creating chances.

Ah Pogba was involved in plenty of games where we looked clueless going forward. That period around Stoke away for example.

Giggsy11

beno619 wrote: »

Ah Pogba was involved in plenty of games where we looked clueless going forward. That period around Stoke away for example.

We created plenty of chances against Stoke away.

JamboMac

Could dolberg be a better signing for us than mbappe ever would be.

JamboMac

JamboMac wrote: »

Could dolberg be a better signing for us than mbappe ever would be.

Answered this myself, he seems along the lines of van persie, bergkamp and zlatan as in very controlled and cool in awkward situations.

With Rooney and zlata going I think griezzman and dolberg could be great. Our front line would be very dynamic.

beno619

Giggsy11 wrote: »

We created plenty of chances against Stoke away.

I remember being disappointing after that game didn't think we did enough to win and certainly not in the same vain is Burnley at home where we peppered their goal.

The highlights flatter us imo.

Giggsy11

beno619 wrote: »

I remember being disappointing after that game didn't think we did enough to win and certainly not in the same vain is Burnley at home where we peppered their goal.

The highlights flatter us imo.

Yeah we didn't create as many chances as we did against Burnley but we created enough chances to win or at least score much earlier than we did.

Cookiemunster

beno619 wrote: »

I remember being disappointing after that game didn't think we did enough to win and certainly not in the same vain is Burnley at home where we peppered their goal.

The highlights flatter us imo.

Utd had 65% possession. 25 shots to their 6. 8 on target to their one. And their keeper was the MOTM. It was just as frustrating as there Burnley match. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38620111

Cantona's Collars

Rumours in Spain that Bale will be sold for €100 million. His record with injuries seems to be the reason.
Should we go for him and hope he stays fit for longer than he manages in Madrid?

deaddonkey15

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Rarely in this thread do people take what you say at face value. Always will be twisted and manipulated by some of the more confrontational posters.

Typical high-horse tactics once any of your Rooney 'defences' hit the inevitable wall. If anything, I see you push otherwise non-confrontational posters into petty jibes and arguments with the likes of the above comment.

Some posters can get confrontational at times. The mods and report function will sort that out. However, if a poster's argument and fundamental point is a good one to start with, it doesn't matter what language or spin others resort to using in the meantime. Anyone reading whose opinion is worth taking will be able to discern between spin/deflection and a good point.

Minderbinder wrote: »

Show me where I said he can't be criticised.

My point is that he is being singled out and basically picked on and it is out of proportion compared to the treatment other players get for playing just as poorly, players who have achieved next to nothing at the club. Giggs kind of got the same treatment though so I suppose I shouldn't be that surprised.

I spent about 30 minutes writing a (non confrontational) post last night to address all those points and quoted you, why Rooney's 'treatment' seems out of proportion compared to other players you named, why it's hard to view the legend of the past when the reality of the decline is still unfolding before our eyes in the present, how posters had been expressing hope for him when he recently returned to the starting 11 before judging. All of that. Well all of that, apart from the Giggs comment.

Your Giggs comment might actually offer some insight here - Do you feel that a player starting for Manchester United should be in the line-up based on sentiment and club honors, no matter what their form is like and what stage of their career they're at?

Anyway, you're both free of course to ignore that original post of mine from last night regarding Rooney, but to then go on beating that drum today is very selective, almost conveniently selective. It's like the thread is the way you both say it is, and then the way it actually is.

paulbok

zerks wrote: »

Rumours in Spain that Bale will be sold for €100 million. His record with injuries seems to be the reason.
Should we go for him and hope he stays fit for longer than he manages in Madrid?

As much as I like Bale, that susceptibility to injury is what we need to be clearing from the club, not bringing it in.

Hococop

paulbok wrote: »

As much as I like Bale, that susceptibility to injury is what we need to be clearing from the club, not bringing it in.

Agreed €50 Million at most with his injury record

TheDoc

JamboMac wrote: »

Answered this myself, he seems along the lines of van persie, bergkamp and zlatan as in very controlled and cool in awkward situations.

With Rooney and zlata going I think griezzman and dolberg could be great. Our front line would be very dynamic.

Have you seen him a bit or just taking that from what I linked.

Certainly an impressive segment written on him there, but can't say I've seen much if next to nothing of ajax in recent years.


Thats not me having an underhand dig at you btw, his name has just popped up a fair bit on some "player to watch" lists this season and interested to know more about him.

Anyone who gets a comparison to Bergkamp is worth keeping tabs on in my book

domrush

Hococop wrote: »

Agreed ?50 Million at most with his injury record

50 million ffs come out of the fog.

TheDoc

zerks wrote: »

Rumours in Spain that Bale will be sold for €100 million. His record with injuries seems to be the reason.
Should we go for him and hope he stays fit for longer than he manages in Madrid?

Heard the exact opposite this week with Madrid based peeps claiming Perez has ultimate faith in Bale. Silly season truely upon us

Does seem though he is going through a poor spell with injuries. No doubting his ability when fit and firing and would be welcomed into the team by me, and I'm sure everyone.

But seems he has back trouble that's feeding into his leg muscle injuries. Wouldn't write him off, but that is a worrying injury problem that has claimed many a good player. You'd probably want to see him back putting in a decent season before dropping 100m. Think he has dropped down a bit in the general stakes of "world class players". Fit and firing he is at the level under the usual two, but it's a worrying trait watching him this year with all these niggles.

Cantona's Collars

I had a row with an in-law yesterday over Rooney, he said it was disgraceful the grief he's getting after being such a servant to the club.I said "he was" a good servant (despite wanting a move to City) but not any more.
More and more rumours and stories around Manchester about his binge drinking and lifestyle, compare that to Zlatan or Ronaldo who have looked after themselves and adapted their game.
Look at Rooney, under LVG he wanted to play CF and couldn't do it then moaned,got moved deeper to be a playmaker and was as useful as a chocolate teapot.
His regression has been so sudden it actually shocked people.It was a sad sight seeing him on the pitch yesterday as Arsenal players skipped round him without breaking into a sprint.
I know a few here have blinkered views due to their loyalty to him but it's time to take them off and accept his time at the club is done.

TheDoc

stankratz wrote: »

Nice post

If there is one massive kudos to Jose it's how he has dealt with the Rooney situation. He has been a complete non entity this season apart from the initial circus around his selections.

He has taken a hot topic issue and made it irrelevant. Rooney simply hasn't factored into anything really United related in what feels like 3/4 of the season.

In a sense that when he does leave this summer, it won't be a big loss since he was hardly involved.

That is the reality of it. There will be plenty of time to reflect and give him the credit and plaudits he deserves when he leaves. And as much as I dislike him I'll likely post nice things about him.

I'd be lying that even though it would be easy to push my bias about Rooney in terms of getting him out of the squad based on his performances and clear nosedive, there is something incredibly sad about seeing him involved this season. He just looks so out of place and devoid of ability and confidence.

I know he has been a laughing stock outside of the club at times this season and last, and I know I've definitly joined in and used it to point the finger he needs shifting, but my tune has changed in his recent appearances to actually feeling massive sympathy and sadness seeing him come to the end like this.

JamboMac

TheDoc wrote: »

Have you seen him a bit or just taking that from what I linked.

Certainly an impressive segment written on him there, but can't say I've seen much if next to nothing of ajax in recent years.


Thats not me having an underhand dig at you btw, his name has just popped up a fair bit on some "player to watch" lists this season and interested to know more about him.

Anyone who gets a comparison to Bergkamp is worth keeping tabs on in my book

Only youtube, so not the best place maybe to get a real feel for the player, but has buckets of pace and seems confident in his ability.

25 apps 15 goals league, 5 in europa 5(3) ok not the most defensive league, but would rather him for around 15 - 20 than mbappe for 80.
French league is a really inconsistent league at best.
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/322163/Show/Kasper-Dolberg

TheDoc

zerks wrote: »

I had a row with an in-law yesterday over Rooney, he said it was disgraceful the grief he's getting after being such a servant to the club.I said "he was" a good servant (despite wanting a move to City) but not any more.
More and more rumours and stories around Manchester about his binge drinking and lifestyle, compare that to Zlatan or Ronaldo who have looked after themselves and adapted their game.
Look at Rooney, under LVG he wanted to play CF and couldn't do it then moaned,got moved deeper to be a playmaker and was as useful as a chocolate teapot.
His regression has been so sudden it actually shocked people.It was a sad sight seeing him on the pitch yesterday as Arsenal players skipped round him without breaking into a sprint.
I know a few here have blinkered views due to their loyalty to him but it's time to take them off and accept his time at the club is done.

Whatever about my personal views of him and the "stuff" he has done, I've found it best whenever I get into a debate about Rooney, that it's best focusing on the football and football alone.

There is enough evidence there, especially the last two seasons, that he just isn't up to scratch. I'd imagine "the grief" is likely from some stunts and comments he made and unfortunately his performances and input kinda shot himself in the foot a bit. I know thats why I used to get more aggressive in terms of stripping him back.

But he's not even an entity for me anymore. I tend to not overly get involved in the topic of him anymore because he is just not relevant. And as you say, that probably is sad.

I'd happily take a Rooney in his prime in this team, and I don't think anyone wouldn't. That firing Rooney in his pomp, going through a purple patch, would be gobbling up the goals in this team.

And for all the issues with him, be it mine, or generally, I never omit or forget the fact he likely damaged his own longevity and overall personal career, by being so flexible and being so willing to do a job for the team. That he is our top goalscorer, while being second fiddle to so many players down the years is testament to how good he was.

Ugh, writing eulogies already.

Wouldn't begrudge him scoring the winner in the Europa final (should we get there) to just wrap it all off. The way he is leaving at the moment doesn't feel befitting, whatever my opinion about him. You like to think, well in my nievity anyway, that sometimes football has a nice way of writing good scripts for itself.

Although with Rooney, and Zlatan, that's gone a bit out the window.

TheDoc

JamboMac wrote: »

Only youtube, so not the best place maybe to get a real feel for the player, but has buckets of pace and seems confident in his ability.

25 apps 15 goals league, 5 in europa 5(3) ok not the most defensive league, but would rather him for around 15 - 20 than mbappe for 80.
French league is a really inconsistent league at best.
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/322163/Show/Kasper-Dolberg

Same sort of tentativeness exists with the Dutch league too in fairness. For every Robben there is a Babel (will brick anyone who says Memphis :P ) For every Van Persie there is that ****ter who played for Boro.

For every Suarez there is a Jansenn. The list goes on.

The reality is that there is nothing really guaranteed in terms of a transfer, or a player coming to England. I'm not actually particularly sure why that is if I'm honest anymore. The quality is so obviously less than other leagues and the pace/power is a bit of a myth that died away a good while ago, with other leagues being just as fast and strong.

Personally think it's all down to the person themselves, and their own ability to adapt. Someone like Zlatan in theory you should have no issues or concerns with. Big player, done the business in three four different leagues and comes to England when the quality is pretty meh, so its weird looking back that there was questions over him.

That Mhikitarian would struggle? Speaks multiple languages, travelled and lived in multiple countries from a young age, and played in a fast, technical Dortmund team in a German league on the rise. Hence my general puzzlement at Mourinhos comments he wasn't adapting. Wasn't adapting to the unusual demands of a JMourinho wide player it seemed to me, nothing about the club or the premier league.

Simply put every transfer contains an element of risk, as we as fans should be more then exposed too, but sometimes do well to remember it can happen and does exist.

That risk is only amplified as the transfer fees rise and rise and rise. Spending more money on a player does not remove the inherent issues and risks of them not working out, immediately or longer term.

JamboMac

Just looked at mbappe stat's how is his price tag 85 million? Sure supposedly he has decided to join madrid as of this morning so that's grand.

paulbok

TheDoc wrote: »

Heard the exact opposite this week with Madrid based peeps claiming Perez has ultimate faith in Bale. Silly season truely upon us

Does seem though he is going through a poor spell with injuries. No doubting his ability when fit and firing and would be welcomed into the team by me, and I'm sure everyone.

But seems he has back trouble that's feeding into his leg muscle injuries. Wouldn't write him off, but that is a worrying injury problem that has claimed many a good player. You'd probably want to see him back putting in a decent season before dropping 100m. Think he has dropped down a bit in the general stakes of "world class players". Fit and firing he is at the level under the usual two, but it's a worrying trait watching him this year with all these niggles.

That's the risk, ideally you would like to see him do another season with no real injury issues, but in doing so and he becomes attainable, City, Chelsea, Munich and the usual Italian clubs will be looking for him as well.

D14Rugby

Anybody who wants to know why United aren't top of the pile anymore just look at the tunnel footage from the weekends game. If that had happened in Keane's day there'd be murder.

fuzzydunlop85

D14Rugby wrote: »

Anybody who wants to know why United aren't top of the pile anymore just look at the tunnel footage from the weekends game. If that had happened in Keane's day there'd be murder.

What was that relating to?

D14Rugby

fuzzydunlop85 wrote: »

What was that relating to?

Players hugging, laughing and having a chat before kickoff.

deaddonkey15

stankratz wrote: »

Typical high-horse tactics once any of your Rooney 'defences' hit the inevitable wall.

Nothing "high-horse" about what I said and none of my Rooney defences has hit a wall. It's common across other football threads including this one for people to get quite confrontational.

stankratz wrote: »

If anything, I see you push otherwise non-confrontational posters into petty jibes and arguments with the likes of the above comment.

No one is obligated to respond to me. If they reply with petty jibes it reflects on them, not me.

stankratz wrote: »

Your Giggs comment might actually offer some insight here - Do you feel that a player starting for Manchester United should be in the line-up based on sentiment and club honors, no matter what their form is like and what stage of their career they're at?

That wasn't why Rooney started yesterday.

Richard Hillman

D14Rugby wrote: »

Anybody who wants to know why United aren't top of the pile anymore just look at the tunnel footage from the weekends game. If that had happened in Keane's day there'd be murder.

It is a very worrying trend falling into football, which stems from the herbivore approach from underage and academy football.

United's biggest fear was always about turning into Liverpool. It is worse. They are now Arsenal.

Rossi IRL

Jaysus id love Bale for left wing.