Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

Trigger

M!Ck^ wrote: »

To clarify: Man Utd will not be investigated.
It's Juve & the agent in question.

is that official?

That was my take on it anyways that they would be investigated for 3rd party ownership and i reckon the 16m(if true) to Riola from United is to buy him out of that and keep everything above board at Uniteds end

Lukekul

New away jersey launched

astradave

astradave wrote: »

is that official?

That was my take on it anyways that they would be investigated for 3rd party ownership and i reckon the 16m(if true) to Riola from United is to buy him out of that and keep everything above board at Uniteds end

Noise on twitter / radio this morning

eigrod

M!Ck^ wrote: »

To clarify: Man Utd will not be investigated.
It's Juve & the agent in question.

Of course they will be investigated as they paid the money. Doesn't mean they will be found guilty of anything, but to say they won't be investigated is naive.

caviardreams

Oh I do like that new away kit. Didn't think the pattern was going to be as visible and that it would be more subtle but it actually works ok.

eigrod

eigrod wrote: »

Of course they will be investigated as they paid the money. Doesn't mean they will be found guilty of anything, but to say they won't be investigated is naive.

Not what I'm reading.
FIFA had the documents since August as per the transfer.
FIFA haven't actually announced it officially either.

Nothing story

Mantis Toboggan

eigrod wrote: »

Of course they will be investigated as they paid the money. Doesn't mean they will be found guilty of anything, but to say they won't be investigated is naive.

Don't ya know ya cannot say anything negative about the club in this thread?

The happy United fans who are delighted with the way the club is being run will be on to shout you down.

zerks

zerks wrote: »

Football Leaks: The Dirty Business of Football, by Rafael Buschmann and Michael Wurzinger is published on Thursday by Der Spiegel.

I really hate goal bonuses especially ones that big (if true) isn't exactly conducive for all round team play

Cantona's Collars

Raiola had a clause that if Dortmund turned down a bid for Mkhitaryan he'd get paid.They were backed into a corner,turn us down, pay Raiola,sell him and still pay Raiola.

It's a kind of a loyalty scheme but of course favours the agent no matter what happens.

Cantona's Collars

More pics of new kit.

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/862215675120680961

eigrod

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Don't ya know ya cannot say anything negative about the club in this thread?

The happy United fans who are delighted with the way the club is being run will be on to shout you down.

Any transfer, involving any club, where a payment of €40m is made to an agent deserves to be investigated and should be the 1st step in eliminating it. But we all know that's not going to happen. Calling it a 'nothing story' is pathetic.

With or without an investigation, this story demonstrates how sick & ugly the professional game is now.

jayo26

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Not what I'm reading.
FIFA had the documents since August as per the transfer.
FIFA haven't actually announced it officially either.

Nothing story

From what I read it's similar to you.

Fifa have decided after the football leaks to look into where the money went.

United made a statement that they are relaxes about it and fifa have all the necessary paperwork since august.

I think the problem is and I remember saying it on here at the time that when the agent had such a large percentage of future transfer fee wrote into his contract it is the same as third part ownership.

Juventus paid the agent the percentage of the sale because it's wrote into his contract but I think United have paid him the usual agents fee because he negotiated the deal same as They would of done with mkhitaryan and zlatan too.

Juventus didn't pay the agent to get the most money for the player they payed him because when pogba signed for juventus the agent had it wrote into his contract he was entitled to a percentage of the fee. That's third party ownership.

KaiserGunner

zerks wrote: »

Raiola had a clause that if Dortmund turned down a bid for Mkhitaryan he'd get paid.They were backed into a corner,turn us down, pay Raiola,sell him and still pay Raiola.

It's a kind of a loyalty scheme but of course favours the agent no matter what happens.

Really? That's crazy if true, agents running the show either way.

jayo26

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I really hate goal bonuses especially ones that big (if true) isn't exactly conducive for all round team play

It's like paying him 360k a week to score goals then if you do score goals we will give you another 2.5 million a week bonus..

TheDoc

5starpool wrote: »

Whatever the focus of the investigation is, the amount of money going to football agents is absolutely scandalous in recent years. Not my money and all that, but for a largely unnecessary role in reality, it takes a stupid amount of money, and the likes of Raiola and Jorge Mendes are the biggest beneficiaries of it. I'd love if agents were banned from transfers except in wage/benefit negotiations for the players the represent. Even at that, I'd love to see them banned entirely.

While on the surface I would agree, when you see the reliance on agents now by players and by clubs I don't see them going away anytime soon.

I also dont think "agents" is the problem anymore. Agents seem to be referenced to for anyone in the deal that is not the club or the player. But what is a growing problem is "3rd parties" and "intermediaries" who are involved in deals or required for deals that take up a slice of money.

Been muted as one of the reasons for inflated transfer fees, as there is more people involved in a deal now.

Examples I read recently were staggering. People getting paid tens of thousands of pounds for introductions, or getting paid for just sounding out players and stuff.

The quicker there is more transparency the better because its a total mess. Every transfer now is a tap up and it's an entire mess. Would be better if it could move back to two clubs having to speak to each other first to arrange the deal, then the player gets involved.

I think agents are a worthy cause, the good ones, to ensure the players are looked after. Lets not kid ourselves, clubs would absolutely rinse players in contracts and stuff.

Secret footballer, that was it. Has a new book coming out and an extract was talking about a transfer he had, and why no player would want to go into a transfer negotiation without an agent.

The 3rd parties and basically all the circus of people around transfers needs to go

Kerrydude1981

jayo26 wrote: »

It's like paying him 360k a week to score goals then if you do score goals we will give you another 2.5 million a week bonus..

Should be docked money for missed chances

Be no one getting paid after a few of the home games this season

Tyson Fury

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Don't ya know ya cannot say anything negative about the club in this thread?

The happy United fans who are delighted with the way the club is being run will be on to shout you down.

That's not the case.

You can be negative with no issue, but don't expect people not to challenge you on it.

Jose has gotten plenty of criticism as have Utd.

TheDoc

By the by, the "Football Leak" stuff about Zlatan and Pogba's contract, is coming from an extract of a book published this week.

Not to be the total cynic, but I'd maybe air towards caution of it being headline grabbing PR for a new book coming out. Not saying it's true, not saying it's not correct. But maybe some context required considering the the source and the week they are about to have

In the grand scheme of things, should it be true, I don't think the Ibrahimovic thing is a big deal. Plenty of clubs were likely in for him, and the fact he was coming for free you could justify his contract based on the transfer fee saved. And can't say he hasn't been worth it, for me anyway. Got to see one of my favourite players play for us, and actually be unreal. So I consider it worth every penny

Cantona's Collars

Saw the stats for our conversion rate from set pieces,the third worst in the league.
We have a massive team now and still can't score,Jose should bring in Pulis for a week of intensive training:) and maybe we can get the delivery right and actually hit the target when the cross is met.

Trigger

****in love that Jersey! Defo going onto the missuses shopping list

zerks

zerks wrote: »

Saw the stats for our conversion rate from set pieces,the third worst in the league.
We have a massive team now and still can't score,Jose should bring in Pulis for a week of intensive training:) and maybe we can get the delivery right and actually hit the target when the cross is met.

As a side note: Rashford needs to be taken off corners IMO (Not frees :pac:)
He should be in the box

Only one man for corners...

Cantona's Collars

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Really? That's crazy if true, agents running the show either way.

It was reported last night on Off the Ball.Third party ownership is also going under the spotlight, at times nobody knows who owns players registration.

TheDoc

Just on the story itself, potentially €40m paid to an agent for one transfer is absolutely scandalous. I sincerely hope that Juventus are paying that and not us.

Regardless of the clubs finances, I'd like there to be some integrity and bravery to turn down a target, if being held to outrageous ransom. I'm perfectly fine with the club paying big money for players. I'm in no way fine facilitators being paid that sort of money. €40m is money that could go to some squad players or buying an elite player.

I'd be disgusted if it was the case we paid that fee, and I'm surprised Juventus or their fans are happy with that sort of transaction taking place.

statto25

90 dollarydoos for the new jersey on the Adidas Website. Ill wait and see what the local bricks and mortar shop sell it for.

Cantona's Collars

astradave wrote: »

****in love that Jersey! Defo going onto the missuses shopping list

€62 on sports direct,€83 for the player version.

Off to my "other store" methinks.

statto25

zerks wrote: »

€62 on sports direct,€83 for the player version.

Off to my "other store" methinks.

In that case Adidas are taking the mick altogether with their prices

Giggsy11

TheDoc wrote: »

Just on the story itself, potentially €40m paid to an agent for one transfer is absolutely scandalous. I sincerely hope that Juventus are paying that and not us.

Regardless of the clubs finances, I'd like there to be some integrity and bravery to turn down a target, if being held to outrageous ransom. I'm perfectly fine with the club paying big money for players. I'm in no way fine facilitators being paid that sort of money. €40m is money that could go to some squad players or buying an elite player.

I'd be disgusted if it was the case we paid that fee, and I'm surprised Juventus or their fans are happy with that sort of transaction taking place.

Not sure what scandalous. Player negotiated 25% of the future fee, it's on Juventus to pay the money and they did, they even made official statement about it.

Agent got 16 Million for brokering the deal, 22 Million they got is because they were owed that money based on future transfer fee.

5-6 years ago we missed Hazard because we didn't pay 7-8 million agent fee, that was for just 32 million transfer fee, so it's not out of this world to think Agent made 16 million on 90 million deal.

TheDoc

zerks wrote: »

Saw the stats for our conversion rate from set pieces,the third worst in the league.
We have a massive team now and still can't score,Jose should bring in Pulis for a week of intensive training:) and maybe we can get the delivery right and actually hit the target when the cross is met.

I suppose there are some mitigating circumstances the more I have thought about it. I remember previous discussions with Pro.F where he gave some great stats and information regarding what a top strikers conversion rate "really" looks like. Think at the time I was complaining about Van PErsie missing some sitters in three games that shaped Untieds season under Moyes. Or might have been Welbeck.

Anyway I took from the conversation that while I, like many, would have a perception of a top striker or attacker finishing "when it matters" the actually reality was that the best strikers only really convert chances at a rate of like 20 something percent(Pro.F jump in here if I'm remembering wrong, it was a really good chat we had at the time and it changed my outlook on finishing)

With that at the forefront of my mind the last while, I've always accepted there will be some misses. Ibrahimovic encapsulated that this season. While he scored loads of goals, he missed a lot of chances too. It's something that we have to live with.

But I guess in that isolated scenario, what you hope balances out, is the supporting cast (wingers, midfielders, AMC's, 10's) chip in where required.

This season it feels across the board that we are scoring low and missing chances and being pretty poor in front of goal, and a lot of statistics would back that up. We have just been bad scoring goals, no questions.

But there is probably some mitigation. Things I've been thinking about anyway, that might not be tangibly measured or potentially even thought about.

Chopping and changing of personal in attack
Somewhat understandable for parts of the season as Jose looked to find out his best front three or four. But the consistent changing of personal means no fluidity or understanding can be built on the pitch. Different players playing different ways, and everyone having to adapt game to game, with no real template or understanding being built. That Pogba and Ibrahimovic have struck up a chord this season, is not just from their innate ability they posses, but likely from the fact they have played in the same team for weeks and weeks and weeks and built that understanding.

One minute it looked like Martial and Mhiki flanking Zlatan was perfect, only for it to change the following week and so forth. That we arrived into April and now May, with questions still over our "first choice attack" is obscure and just adds to our issues.

The plan in attack
What is the plan? What is the managers idea about how the team should attack? Are attacking players left to their own devices to figure it out? Are they being given instruction thats not working? Whats happening here?

Feeds back on from the first header for me, as while everyone will know "the overall plan" implementations and interpretations could differ player to player

"It's just unlucky"
It's an argument and point I've read a lot this year, and to a certain extent it holds weight. But when something negative reoccurs consistently (ie, throughout a season) it becomes more than just bad luck in my view, and instead becomes a fundamental flaw in the setup, the instruction or the players.
There will always be instances of bad luck in isolation, but I think its been too much to just write off under this idea.

We have players who havn't developed their finishing technique
This one resonates with me more. When you look across the board at goalscorers you always have the flash in the pan players. You always have the young guns who have a breakthrough season, and you always have the guys who are just instinctively good finishers. But you also have strikers that as they get older, they get better and more ruthless.

The late twenties is still considered the best age for a striker. Whatever about growing in strength and power, you hope and expect a striker in their late twenties will have a library of experience when it comes to finishing chances. Do I dink, slot it between the legs, curl it round, round the keeper, pass etc. etc. You hope that they are more calm in the situation, relying on their experience and confidence of "I've scored this a thousand times in training" to make the right decision.

I think we have some players who don't have that experience yet. Who will score goals, but plenty of times will make the wrong choice. Martial and Rashford are prime examples of that. While scoring some lovely goals, they miss a lot of chances. They miss easy chances. Chances we consider easy because we see good strikers finish them all the time. But for these two guys, their learning, they haven't built that experience yet. Lingaard, for being older, I still put in that bracket as he has been a late bloomer/arrival to first team football.

I think of that chance he got where he just hit it straight at the keeper. A few years time, even a years time, he knows that gets slotted low and into a corner.

Added pressure
Not really measurable, potentially not even true, but something I can't help but think is a factor for most of our attackers by Zlatan. But if you have to do something, and know if you don't do it, you will get in some **** for it, you are going to experience added pressure.

Ramp that scenario up to a football match, at the speed and pace, split second decision making, and that pressure likely also ramps up. I'd hoped and maybe thought if we absolutely stomped someone at some point, like a proper thrashing where we just hammered someone a good 4, 5 or 6, that confidence would flow back and the goals would just come. Like that we are and were creating chances, just not finishing them. That never really materialised outside of Leicester at home, which was a bit of a freak in terms of the corners, and it looks like the team didn't really hammer someone to gain some confidence and release the pressure valve. It's just been there for what feels like so long, the manager calling out the players, saying its not good enough and dropping them. I can only imagine it's not productive for the next time they get into those positions, when you factor the other topics above also.

Bit of a brain dump, just been thoughts I've had about the finishing. I'd thought first it was a strictly player issue, then I thought after seeing it repeat that it was a coaching/instruction/tactical issue but now I'm probably thinking of some more stuff and realising, for me anyway, its a combo of a lot of things. Some of which could be easily addressed or sorted, others that will just take time.

TheDoc

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Not sure what scandalous. Player negotiated 25% of the future fee, it's on Juventus to pay the money and they did, they even made official statement about it.

Agent got 16 Million for brokering the deal, 22 Million they got is because they were owed that money based on future transfer fee.

5-6 years ago we missed Hazard because we didn't pay 7-8 million agent fee, that was for just 32 million transfer fee, so it's not out of this world to think Agent made 16 million on 90 million deal.

Might be my misinterpretation, but I'm reading people post here he got €40m from the deal? Am I reading that wrong?

Kerrydude1981

zerks wrote: »

Saw the stats for our conversion rate from set pieces,the third worst in the league.
We have a massive team now and still can't score,Jose should bring in Pulis for a week of intensive training:) and maybe we can get the delivery right and actually hit the target when the cross is met.

The delivery from corners is at an all time low,was it Leicester at home we last scored from a corner that bit of clever play between Blind and Mata

Big Dave is the only player that hasnt taken a corner this season id say

Hococop

zerks wrote: »

More pics of new kit.

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/862215675120680961

Haha such a boyband pic

Headshot

Hococop wrote: »

Haha such a boyband pic

They are going to rock your body, right

Giggsy11

TheDoc wrote: »

Might be my misinterpretation, but I'm reading people post here he got €40m from the deal? Am I reading that wrong?

Yes he got. 22 Million was paid because Juve owed him as part of contract. When Pogba signed contract with them, player/agent negotiated that 25% of the transfer fee will be paid to agent/player. So as part of that contract Juve paid him 22 Million. That's as good as agent holding 25% of Pogba's rights.

Then he was paid 16 million for brokering the deal. Now no one knows whether this 16 million is for Pogba's deal or all the 3 players we signed. If only Pogba deal, whether ManUtd alone paid him or there is percentage breakdown between buying and selling club.

It's also reported Pogba paid 2 million to agent.

So in total he got 40 million but as an agent he made 16 million for brokering the deal.

beakerjoe

Hococop wrote: »

Haha such a boyband pic

Very East 17

Hococop

Headshot wrote: »

They are going to rock your body, right

Backstreets back alright....... I make no apologies

Nalz

astradave wrote: »

****in love that Jersey! Defo going onto the missuses shopping list

I loved the original (rumbelows cup winning shirt)

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

Might be my misinterpretation, but I'm reading people post here he got €40m from the deal? Am I reading that wrong?

Yes - he did (seemingly)

But an important point is that he was owed 25% of the sale fee. No a commission, part of the actual fee.

Its the same as United having a sell on fee included in the sale of Michael Keane. If Burnley sell him this summer we are due a percentage of the fee. The difference is that in the Pogba case it was Riola who was contracted to get the sale on fee percentage, not a club.

IMO - from an 'Agents are bad' perspective the 25% or whatever it was that Riola got should be removed from the conversation, unless you are looking at it from a third party ownership point of view. Its the 16million, over 5 years, that should be looked at from a standard agent fee view - but on a 100million deal, and a player contract worth maybe 78million (300k per week?) over 5 years: that amounts to 9% of the total money on the deal - maybe a signing on fee too. I'm not surprised at an agent getting 10% in commission over the entirety.

The_Kew_Tour

That New Away Jersey is for all us folk born before 1985.

Ye young folk just don't understand how happy us old men are right now.

I still have that Blue away jersey at Parents attic.
Bit small for me now though

Cantona's Collars

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

That New Away Jersey is for all us folk born before 1985.

Ye young folk just don't understand how happy us old men are right now.

I still have that Blue away jersey at Parents attic.
Bit small for me now though

Get Sharp printed on it and you're sorted.

rwbug

Giggsy11 wrote: »

That's clearly wrong. Juventus have published the details. Not sure what so hard to understand. Juventus owned only 75% of Pogba as agent owned 25% of the transfer fee. So out of 89 Million they got 22 Million. 16 Million will be paid for brokering the deal.

Aren't we agreeing? Changing the currency doesn't change the facts. Juve announced that they received €105+5 as a fee for Pogba. Out of that they paid Raiola €27 million, his 25%.

"The sale to United earned us €105m plus €5m in bonuses, a clause that gets triggered if he signs a new deal with United or is sold for more than €50m. This results in a profit of €95m, of which €27m will be paid to Mino Raiola and his company. Taking fees into account, our net profit on Pogba comes at €72m." - Juventus general director Giuseppe Marotta Oct 2016

We are now hearing in addition to this United are paying £16 million to Raiola and they are also paying Pogbas fees to Raiola of £2 million.

United are paying in total north of €125 million for Pogba after Juve/Raiola are paid. Raiola is receiving close to €50 of that.

Raiola is receiving -
€27 million from Juve for his 25% ownership
£16 million from United as agent fees
£2 million for Pogbas fees (paid by United)

Giggsy11

rwbug wrote: »

Aren't we agreeing? Changing the currency doesn't change the facts. Juve announced that they received €105+5 as a fee for Pogba. Out of that they paid Raiola €27 million, his 25%.

"The sale to United earned us €105m plus €5m in bonuses, a clause that gets triggered if he signs a new deal with United or is sold for more than €50m. This results in a profit of €95m, of which €27m will be paid to Mino Raiola and his company. Taking fees into account, our net profit on Pogba comes at €72m." - Juventus general director Giuseppe Marotta Oct 2016

We are now hearing in addition to this United are paying £16 million to Raiola and they are also paying Pogbas fees to Raiola of £2 million.

United are paying in total north of €125 million for Pogba after Juve/Raiola are paid. Raiola is receiving close to €50 of that.

Raiola is receiving -
€27 million from Juve for his 25% ownership
£16 million from United as agent fees
£2 million for Pogbas fees (paid by United)

Oh yeah Manutd paid 16 million to the agent for brokering the deal but not sure if that counts as transfer fee just like how wages and signing on fee doesn't count.

jayo26

rwbug wrote: »

Aren't we agreeing? Changing the currency doesn't change the facts. Juve announced that they received €105+5 as a fee for Pogba. Out of that they paid Raiola €27 million, his 25%.

"The sale to United earned us €105m plus €5m in bonuses, a clause that gets triggered if he signs a new deal with United or is sold for more than €50m. This results in a profit of €95m, of which €27m will be paid to Mino Raiola and his company. Taking fees into account, our net profit on Pogba comes at €72m." - Juventus general director Giuseppe Marotta Oct 2016

We are now hearing in addition to this United are paying £16 million to Raiola and they are also paying Pogbas fees to Raiola of £2 million.

United are paying in total north of €125 million for Pogba after Juve/Raiola are paid. Raiola is receiving close to €50 of that.

Raiola is receiving -
€27 million from Juve for his 25% ownership
£16 million from United as agent fees
£2 million for Pogbas fees (paid by United)

Couldn't be anymore spot on.

The problem is that the shock horror for people saying Ohh he got 50 million that's disgraceful (which it is) but that's not the fault of United it's because juventus have a percentage of sale contract with juventus.

His agent fee from us albeit large and not nice either it is probably in proportion to the transfer fee been paid in comparison to some other major contracts over the years.

I'm not sure if your correct in saying it's pounds either maybe it is but it varies from one source to the next I won't argue against it.

Edit: and we are not just now hearing about the mo at United paid the agent this was mentioned at time of contract it's no big secret.

jayo26

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Oh yeah Manutd paid 16 million to the agent for brokering the deal but not sure if that counts as transfer fee just like how wages and signing on fee doesn't count.

It counts when people need a stick to beat someone with. It's massive money alright but it's not really any other clubs business as it was passed by fifa.

Rayne Wooney

The over the top criticism of the squad rotation just seems like people shifting the blame from the choking going on in front of goal all season.

3 losses and 3 draws in September/October put us out of the running and you can't tell me the players were feeling effects of fatigue at that stage of the season. There was very little choice after that than to play strong teams because our season was going down the toilet, I'd imagine it was useful for Mourinho to decide who gets to stay next season and we may end up with two pieces of silverware which no other team in the league will beat.

I don't think any manager other than Fergie would have gotten us into the top 4 this season and that's a scary dose of reality.

bucketybuck

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I don't think any manager other than Fergie would have gotten us into the top 4 this season and that's a scary dose of reality.

I'm not sure thats true, the only reason we are not top four right now is because we didn't take our chances. It wouldn't take Fergie to make us top four, just better striking options.

beno619

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The over the top criticism of the squad rotation just seems like people shifting the blame from the choking going on in front of goal all season.

That may be true of some posters.

But others and not necessarily me have been questioning the squad rotation since Europa league group phase.

dubmick

Have to say I got a good laugh from this pic. VDS :)
Ajax only beaten twice in the league this year. https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/may/10/ajax-johan-cruyff-peter-bosz-europa-league-lyon#img-2

I love that jersey, will have to ask Uncle Mino to buy me one .

Cookie_Dough

stankratz wrote: »

I love that jersey, will have to ask Uncle Mino to buy me one .

He'll charge you £40million for the procurement, a bargain!!

Antibac

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

That New Away Jersey is for all us folk born before 1985.

Ye young folk just don't understand how happy us old men are right now.

I still have that Blue away jersey at Parents attic.
Bit small for me now though

I must be in the minority Kew. I'm of that vintage & think the jersey is horrendous