Suspected Terrorist Attack in Paris

WinnyThePoo

gitzy16v wrote: »

What will Isis negotiations involve?
Do you think they will stop killing infidels if they get a little caliphate in Syria and Iraq?
Please don't say you think Isis can be negotiated with "around a table".
Shocking to think some here feel we should negotiate with Isis,it's Isis ffs.

The Americans negotiated with the Taliban.

BoatMad

Somedude9 wrote: »

I'm not sure these particular people do table talks & nor should we.

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

OK so now we must deal with them using conventional judicial processes, Habeas Corpus etc " I'm not for any kind of internment really."

Just exactly where do you deport native born criminal muslims, ? and the evidence is that many terrorist attacks are from people with no previous criminal convictions

Now we're are in " minority report " territitory , i.e. " thought crimes and while you have dismissed internment , your solution is merely foreign internment ,

of course you neglect to deal with native born muslims and just exactly where do you deport all these people to. ( French Guiana ?)
I see a parisian borne radical is deported to....... ( oh I see Marseille)
Now we have a thought police state, rather like the Stasi successfully engendered in East Germany , neighbour informing on neighbour etc
albeit throughly radicalised by the flagrant treatment of their Muslim citizens

if isnt wasn't serious Id still be laughing

Extradite, exile. Since their allegiance is to IS, any country that recognizes IS should do.
Intelligence currently identifies people they think are in danger of being radicalized. Is that thought police ? If thought police is a mum ringing alarm bells about her son watching videos of people getting their heads chopped off, then I'm all for it.
This is not about someone becoming a Buddhist. This is about extreme Islam, and criminal intent. We have to make a judgement call however unpalatable it seems to be for you. I have no problem making this call, just like we have no problem judging paedophilia. If your interpretation of your religion encourages you to kill yourself or others, or to oppress them, then yep. Thought police all the way for me, I call foul, and I will try and change your mind.

You see, you still have no solution, and seem to hang around here to just counter argue and ridicule others' points.

The situation is more pressing than that. This thread is about yet another killing, and probably more to come.
You seem to look at it as an opportunity to score points, to give out about the past, fair enough.

gitzy16v

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

The Americans negotiated with the Taliban.

That worked well did it?
Afghanistan on holidays this year,yeah?

ChikiChiki

Think that's LePen in which is a good thing for France at this stage.

gitzy16v

BoatMad wrote: »

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

The IRA haha,
try again,the comparison is laughable.

Manny89

BoatMad wrote: »

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

The IRA had a pretty clear aim.

How do you propose we negotiate with people who want to slay unbelievers and create a Caliphate?

wakka12

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

In the space of just over four weeks Europe has had 4 terrorist attacks.

Westminster, Uk.
Stockholm, Sweden.
Borussia Dortmund, Germany.
Paris, France.

This is the reality now for Europe. Well done Merkel and Co.

5.
St Petersburg metro bombings

WinnyThePoo

gitzy16v wrote: »

That worked well did it?
Afghanistan on holidays this year,yeah?

I was pointing out that discussions happen.

No need for the snarky response , doesn't you.

BoatMad

Gamebred wrote: »

A possible solution is to start by tearing down all these Muslim ghettos in France and Belguim, breeding grounds for terror and full to the brim of sympathizers, death sentences for anybody preparing or assisting a plot in anyway.

death sentences etc

Perhaps you dont read much history , but I draw your attention to the plight of Jews in Europe from 1890 onwards. The similarities with actions that many here suggest , are chilling similar,

dehumanisation : They are not like us and never will be
ghettoisation: we dont want them living amongst us
blame :They are all to blame for our troubles ( Jews got the brunt of the blames for the financial collapse of the interwar years )
demonisation: We are all going to be taken over by them , sharia law etc
Proselytisation : the arrival of cultural fanactics suggesting " solutions ", deportment , internment
Mainstreaming: The views fanatics begins to be accepted by the un thinking masses , ( my mother begins to mumble about "them Moslems")
Electoral progress: certain politicians see a route to power on the back of fear
Suspension of civil process: In power, " if you have done nothing m you have nothing to fear", while civil liberties are infringed and suspended at every turn, supported by fear mongers
Enactment: detainment, mass movements , deportations
The final solution :

---

Somedude9

BoatMad wrote: »

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

Yes and they should have stuck by it.

BoatMad

Manny89 wrote: »

The IRA had a pretty clear aim.

How do you propose we negotiate with people who want to slay unbelievers and create a Caliphate?

Its a false reading of ISIS and others philosophy that its solely religious , rathe just like it was a convient crutch that blamed NI issues on religion

Yes there is a religious aspect , but its much more then that

converting or slaying us is not the aim, any reading of ISIS rise to power will show you that they are far more focused on the issues in their immediate vicinity then the " West "

And just like the IRA bombing London, ISIS and other radicals , beleive that " bringing home the conflict in the ME to the civilians of the west " will force a change of policy in the ME. The " bomb them to the table " strategy type of thngs

While the comparison is not total , the tactics are not dissimilar , the level of brutality is a reflection of the horrendous situation in Iraq, Syria etc

wakka12

BoatMad wrote: »

The same comments were said of the IRA ( we dont talk to terrorists , etc )

Are you seriously suggesting that ISIS wishes should even be considered

BoatMad

Somedude9 wrote: »

Yes and they should have stuck by it.

sure and the North would be still inflames to this day , with increasing casualties, increasing radicalisation and sectarianisation of the population

DO you seriously believe just what you typed

greencap

wakka12 wrote: »

5.
St Petersburg metro bombings

How does Merkel get blamed for a British born 40 year old.

How does Merkel get blamed for Russian border control and policing.

BoatMad

wakka12 wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that ISIS wishes should even be considered

Have you any clue as to how ISIS arrived on the scene , and why they received huge support from the Sunni population

DO you not accept there are reasons for so called terror groups to exist, or is it that 100,000s of people suddenly woke up one morning and said , " lets make bombs "

Have you any idea of the history and the process behind this situation

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

death sentences etc

Perhaps you dont read much history , but I draw your attention to the plight of Jews in Europe from 1890 onwards. The similarities with actions that many here suggest , are chilling similar,

dehumanisation : They are not like us and never will be
ghettoisation: we dont want them living amongst us
blame :They are all to blame for our troubles ( Jews got the brunt of the blames for the financial collapse of the interwar years )
demonisation: We are all going to be taken over by them , sharia law etc
Proselytisation : the arrival of cultural fanactics suggesting " solutions ", deportment , internment
Mainstreaming: The views fanatics begins to be accepted by the un thinking masses , ( my mother begins to mumble about "them Moslems")
Electoral progress: certain politicians see a route to power on the back of fear
Suspension of civil process: In power, " if you have done nothing m you have nothing to fear", while civil liberties are infringed and suspended at every turn, supported by fear mongers
Enactment: detainment, mass movements , deportations
The final solution :

---

Still debunking the other side. Your alternative ?
If I understand right, and I'm not being sarcastic, your alternative is "wait it out".

You can debunk a hundred arguments, but your alternative is still as awful, and has the same hurt potential, as a reactive policy. I'm not sure that you understand that.

There are as many ifs and buts in waiting it out as there are in taking action.

BoatMad

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Still debunking the other side. Your alternative ?
If I understand right, and I'm not being sarcastic, your alternative is "wait it out".

You can debunk a hundred arguments, but your alternative is still as awful, and has the same hurt potential, as a reactive policy. I'm not sure that you understand that.

There are as many ifs and buts in waiting it out as there are in taking action.

Yes , we have no choice but to " wait it out " , while trying over maybe a decade or two to resolve the issues in the ME .

the first step is to stop military involvement etc

in the meantime, just like the British instituted certain security protocols, but stopped short of widespread retaliation against ordinary irish people ( consideration was given to suspending the CTA , selective deportment, selective internment, but wiser heads prevailed ) , we have to protect what liberties we have seek to create situations where radicalism does not prosper etc

( its worth noting that Britain still has on its statue books the ability to deport Irish people to Ireland, while Ireland has no such laws applying ti UK citizens here

Gamebred

The best solution for middle east hell holes like Syria Iraq and Afghanistan is nuke them and turn them into a carpark, you'd be putting the people out of their misery and saving resources.

ceadaoin.

BoatMad wrote: »

death sentences etc

Perhaps you dont read much history , but I draw your attention to the plight of Jews in Europe from 1890 onwards. The similarities with actions that many here suggest , are chilling similar,

dehumanisation : They are not like us and never will be
ghettoisation: we dont want them living amongst us
blame :They are all to blame for our troubles ( Jews got the brunt of the blames for the financial collapse of the interwar years )
demonisation: We are all going to be taken over by them , sharia law etc
Proselytisation : the arrival of cultural fanactics suggesting " solutions ", deportment , internment
Mainstreaming: The views fanatics begins to be accepted by the un thinking masses , ( my mother begins to mumble about "them Moslems")
Electoral progress: certain politicians see a route to power on the back of fear
Suspension of civil process: In power, " if you have done nothing m you have nothing to fear", while civil liberties are infringed and suspended at every turn, supported by fear mongers
Enactment: detainment, mass movements , deportations
The final solution :

---

slightly ironic considering the rising anti Semitic attacks across Europe and the fact that Jews are leaving Europe in record numbers. And that's not as a result of far right groups. Do you care about the Jews who feel they are no longer safe in Europe?

Also, many Jewish people are highly offended by comparisons of the current situation in Europe to the holocaust.

BoatMad

Gamebred wrote: »

The best solution for middle east hell holes like Syria Iraq and Afghanistan is nuke them and turn them into a carpark, you'd be putting the people out of their misery and saving resources.

Im glad you didnt control trident missiles in the UK during the 70s , Dublin be a fine skating ring for polar bears during the nuclear winter resulting.

You cant be serious in suggesting, wiping out 90 million ( MILLION) people is a solution , Id counter by saying wiping out the US might be equally effective in stoping the terrorist attacks on Europe !!!!:rolleyes:

BoatMad

ceadaoin. wrote: »

slightly ironic considering the rising anti Semitic attacks across Europe and the fact that Jews are leaving Europe in record numbers. And that's not as a result of far right groups. Do you care about the Jews who feel they are no longer safe in Europe?

Also, many Jewish people are highly offended by comparisons of the current situation in Europe to the holocaust.

Sorry m you are saying the persecution of the jews in the period before ww2, would offend Jews in comparing them to a hypothetical persecution of Muslims,


thats a rather strange accusation , if anything Id expect them to see exactly the parallels

slightly ironic considering the rising anti Semitic attacks across Europe and the fact that Jews are leaving Europe in record numbers. And that's not as a result of far right groups. Do you care about the Jews who feel they are no longer safe in Europe?

err, is its that you just saw the word " Jew " and couldnt be bothered to read any further , I was comparing the historical persecution of the Jews in Europe ( by white nationalists in general ) to a perceived approach that would be similar to the persecution of innocent Muslims, if actions mentioned here were carried out

ceadaoin.

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry m you are saying the persecution of the jews in the period before ww2, would offend Jews in comparing them to a hypothetical persecution of Muslims,


thats a rather strange accusation , if anything Id expect them to see exactly the parallels



err, is its that you just saw the word " Jew " and couldnt be bothered to read any further , I was comparing the historical persecution of the Jews in Europe ( by white nationalists in general ) to a perceived approach that would be similar to the persecution of innocent Muslims, if actions mentioned here were carried out

Yes, many Jewish people do find the likening of "islamophobia" to the persecution Jews endured offensive. Probably because what passes as such bears no resemblance to the holocaust. How is that surprising to you?

Has anyone actually suggested anything like the measures imposed on Jews for Muslims today?

BoatMad

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yes, many Jewish people do find the likening of "islamophobia" to the persecution Jews endured offensive. Probably because what passes as such bears no resemblance to the holocaust. How is that surprising to you?

Has anyone actually suggested anything like the measures imposed on Jews for Muslims today?

The parallels between the historical persecution of the Jews, and the trends towards similar persecution of Muslims in Europe are there for all to see

They are not identical , because of course the demonisation of Muslims is at an early stage , while we are fully aware of the course of Jewish persecution by European nationalists

My comments were to draw parallels between what some people are saying here ( detainment, deportation , demonisation ) and very similar parallels in the European Jewish history of persecution from the mid 19th century onwards in particular ( particularly in Russia )


The holocaust was to some extent a terrible almost logical conclusion , in European persecution of its Jewish minority, clearly there is no parallel , what I am saying is that the route being followed , if some actions were to be carried out by nationalist fanatics begins to look horribly similar too the early stages of the jewish persecution

old_aussie

murpho999 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

They should be hunted down the like the rats they are. Starting with ISIS supporters who live on this Island.[/QUOTE]

How do you find them?

We find them, guilty of treason, and then we shoot them at dawn.

BoatMad

old_aussie wrote: »

murpho999 wrote: »

We find them, guilty of treason, and then we shoot them at dawn.

we could round them up into cattle wagons ...........

old_aussie

So, has anyone got any new updates on the latest shooting in Paris?

Any confirmation on whether there was a second attacker or not.

yoke

These are complex problems and so they will not have fast solutions.

You will have one group saying what I've just said above, ie. that there is no simple solution, and let's just work on making what we have better and more efficient - more efficient education system, more efficient economic system, more efficient and fair legal system, and slowly over time the people will integrate as it is natural for humans to do so over time.

And you will have another group saying "so you don't have a solution then? Why don't you listen to mine?? It's simple..."
- followed by a stupid, "simple" solution - e.g. "deport everyone! Kill everyone! Then 50 years later when you get invaded by China or India (over some resource dispute perhaps), because you became isolationist and fell behind in science, technology, and your economy was ****, and you can't do anything about it, then it's too late to defend democracy and freedom.

History repeats itself, incidentally India and China are classic examples of civilisations that each were world-leading for hundreds of years st some point in history, and then started thinking they were better than everyone else and finally saw huge decline because they became isolationist - and resulted in being invaded down the line by randomers effectively.

Isolationism leads to decline, the only other option is to join up (as the EU is trying to do with Europe) and focus on making our entire society better, and realise we can't stop all terrorist attacks but education and a fair and just economic and legal system which allows everyone a good opportunity at a decent life is the real way of stamping out terrorism in the long term.
Separating based on nations (or "ethnicities") will always lead to conflict in the long term.

take everything

All the hallmarks of atheist fundamentalism this one.

Hank Scorpio

yoke wrote: »

Isolationism leads to decline, the only other option is to join up (as the EU is trying to do with Europe) and focus on making our entire society better, and realise we can't stop all terrorist attacks but education and a fair and just economic and legal system which allows everyone a good opportunity at a decent life is the real way of stamping out terrorism in the long term.
Separating based on nations (or "ethnicities") will always lead to conflict in the long term.

Do you believe that refugees from terror regions have integrated well into the Western society as a whole? Why doesn't china Japan and so on have these problems?

I fully disagree on your stance that carrying on with life as normal will make this problem go away in the long term. It's not isolationist to limit people coming from terror regions who's culture vastly differs from our way of life, it's common sense. Immigration works when the people coming respect our society and want to integrate, I don't believe that's what's been happening for the most part.

yoke

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

Do you believe that refugees from terror regions have integrated well into the Western society as a whole? Why doesn't china Japan and so on have these problems?

I fully disagree on your stance that carrying on with life as normal will make this problem go away in the long term. It's not isolationist to limit people coming from terror regions who's culture vastly differs from our way of life, it's common sense. Immigration works when the people coming respect our society and want to integrate, I don't believe that's what's been happening for the most part.

China and Japan have huge problems. Noone knows where Japan is going economically, and China is far below where it should be, if it was performing well.

And yes, as a whole refugees have integrated well in Ireland so far from what I can see. Incidentally, I wasn't even talking about refugees - I was talking about people who came for jobs - i.e. the vast majority of immigrants.

Stopping immigration - isolating yourself - is the definition of isolationism actually.

Demanding respect doesn't work - respect has to be earned. You can't demand respect for your society from someone, that's just stupid. And I believe that when people live somewhere for a while and they see they are treated fairly, they begin to respect the society that gave them that, and in time they become loyal citizens actually.

BoatMad

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

I fully disagree on your stance that carrying on with life as normal will make this problem go away in the long term. It's not isolationist to limit people coming from terror regions who's culture vastly differs from our way of life, it's common sense. Immigration works when the people coming respect our society and want to integrate, I don't believe that's what's been happening for the most part.

Sorry , there is no requirement to " integrate " simply to make a success of an immigration strategy. Assimilation tends to occur anyway , over succeeding generations , even if " treasured " cultural identities are maintained.

Muslims have been present in European cultures for generations as have many other cultures , many of whom ( like the romanys ) have retained distinctive cultural traditions

The current issue is not about muslims, its the radicalisation of certain elements of Muslim society as a result of the barbaric conflict in the ME and one in which the Wests hands are as bloody as all the others , if not more so.

BoatMad

refugees from terror regions

sorry the vast majority of genuine refugees are from war zones , not terror regions , war zones that are primarily the result of the massive deployment of US military might

yoke

I don't agree with "maintaining cultural tradition" actually - I do believe people integrate and assimilation should be the goal of any immigration policy, not creating divisions within one society.

All cultural traditions should be treated with suspicion IMO - whether it's the "host" country traditions or the immigrant's traditions - culture is a dynamic thing and it changes over time, I believe this idea that certain people are to be associated with certain cultures is the most dangerous thing which can derail a successful immigration policy and create a "them and us" mentality.

Everyone should get the same education regardless of cultural background, and eventually people gravitate to the same "culture" - not necessarily the exact same as what existed before, but definitely not different cultures because that is creating division within society.

yoke

To put it another way - if a child has one immigrant parent and one indigenous parent, what culture is the child?

It's very important that such children feel a part of their society, and not part of some subset of that society. Otherwise they will always identify as "different", and will always have more problems.

The Vikings successfully integrated into Irish society - but we don't see Viking children do we? I'm sure a lot of Viking traditions made their way into Irish traditions, but all Irish people think of them as "Irish" at this stage - i.e. separation of culture is unlikely to work for a successful immigration policy IMO.

A good contrast to the Vikings in Ireland story is the story of the Roma/gypsy people in Central Europe, who (for whatever reason) never really culturally integrated into the countries where they live.
They are still feeling the effects of this with there being negative connotations to being Roma in most European countries - whether they were not able to assimilate because the host people didn't let them inside their towns is irrelevant, the point is that even now people think of them as "them and us".

aled

you group disaffected folks into disaffected areas you get what you get. I lived in Kista, Stockholm for a lot of years and you simply would not go near Husby or Akalla. These areas were simply high rise areas packed with immigrants.
So what do you expect, a social inclusion policy that socially excludes. And strangely when you look at the other countries targeted by such attacks, all of them have the exact same policy. Just shove migrants into migrant areas and maybe they will go away.
In Ireland we tend to simply shove the poor people among the poor people. Migration to date has been tolerated. Its poverty we have primarily focused on in this country. So migrants have been free to move within our society. And this is a very good thing. I think our European friends would be rather jealous when they look at our integration policy (bar direct provision which is a disgrace and an embarrassment)

Hank Scorpio

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry , there is no requirement to " integrate " simply to make a success of an immigration strategy. Assimilation tends to occur anyway , over succeeding generations , even if " treasured " cultural identities are maintained.

Muslims have been present in European cultures for generations as have many other cultures , many of whom ( like the romanys ) have retained distinctive cultural traditions

The current issue is not about muslims, its the radicalisation of certain elements of Muslim society as a result of the barbaric conflict in the ME and one in which the Wests hands are as bloody as all the others , if not more so.

Why have people, even Merkel, come out and say multiple times multiculturalism has failed in Germany and that it's a myth?

Victor

My commiserations to those involved.

Dublin Pintman wrote: »

We're almost at the stage where an 11 year old girl being torn in half by a truck in a European capital is seen as not that big of a deal.

3,400 people will be killed by traffic today. Might you be engaging in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome

Hank Scorpio

Are you engaging in making excuses for Terrorism? I don't know what happened in Paris yesterday, but I do know that over the past two years terror incidents appear to be happening far more frequently. What you fail to think about are the plots foiled which rarely get reported on, it's a constant cat and mouse game and it's only logic that they won't be able to stop all of them. One that did get foiled occurred a few days ago with radicalised bomb makers in Marseille. There's also the heavily increased money being used for security reasons along with the loss of revenue from tourism in major cities. That's before you go into the physiological and social effect it has on Europe as a whole.

But shure it will be grand, as long as people die in other ways it doesn't really matter.

Pkiernan

Victor wrote: »

My commiserations to those involved.

3,400 people will be killed by traffic today. Might you be engaging in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome

20000 cattle will be killed today in Ireland so it's okay to have dog fighting and badger baiting.

Beyondgone

BoatMad wrote: »

I see, like the water charge campaign , was largely led by residents of Dublin 4

I see

hmmmmm.

Water charges were just a handy horse to hop on. It was also pointless, a bit like shouting about the price of a bottle of minerals at a concert when you're paying €400 for the ticket to get in. "Pick a better thing to protest about" and all that.

A Little Pony

Can anyone explain to me what Islamophobia means? Why is it a phobia to not like Islam? It is a very bizarre way to try and label someone to try and discredit them if they are critical about it.

dav3

A Little Pony wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me what Islamophobia means? Why is it a phobia to not like Islam? It is a very bizarre way to try and label someone to try and discredit them if they are critical about it.

A phobia is an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something, I think it would be a quite apt description for someone such as yourself who is scared of their own shadow.
Having said that, a phobia would be classed as a disorder, so I think we should go easy on people with such a disorder.

Samaris

Gamebred wrote: »

The best solution for middle east hell holes like Syria Iraq and Afghanistan is nuke them and turn them into a carpark, you'd be putting the people out of their misery and saving resources.

Gamebred wrote: »

A possible solution is to start by tearing down all these Muslim ghettos in France and Belguim, breeding grounds for terror and full to the brim of sympathizers, death sentences for anybody preparing or assisting a plot in anyway.

Mod: Don't post in this thread again.

Other posters, tone it down if you want the thread to stay open. The topic is the attack in Paris last night, not a rehash of the wrongs of Europe/left wing/right wing/other posters. It's generating a lot of (deservedly) reported posts and will be closed if it continues being a multi-page sniping match. Stick to the topic.

Mountainsandh

BoatMad wrote: »

The parallels between the historical persecution of the Jews, and the trends towards similar persecution of Muslims in Europe are there for all to see

They are not identical , because of course the demonisation of Muslims is at an early stage , while we are fully aware of the course of Jewish persecution by European nationalists

BoatMad wrote: »

Muslims have been present in European cultures for generations as have many other cultures

The current issue is not about muslims, its the radicalisation of certain elements of Muslim society.

You said it yourself, the current issue is not about Muslims.

What people think is right to control and restrict at this moment in Europe is not Islam, but Islamism, extremist views and actions.


In order to achieve control, restrictions may have to involve restricting immigration for moderate Muslims for some time, as it is very hard to identify islamist elements.

This is nothing like the Jewish holocaust parallel you are attempting to draw.
Even Marine Le Pen is not suggesting what you are suggesting.

Marine Le Pen is not going to "pull France out" of the EU as soon as she's in power either. She is going to try and negotiate new EU terms for France, if these fail, she is going to propose a referendum. French people will then decide.

SILVAMAN

Now saying that the shooter was jailed for 20 years for a gun attack on police in 2001. Perhaps whole tariff life sentences should be introduced.
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/gunman-killed-in-paris-shooting-was-isis-terrorist-jailed-for-20-years-for-previous-police-attack/ar-BBA6dUM?li=BBr5KbJ&ocid=mailsignout

Mountainsandh

yoke wrote: »

To put it another way - if a child has one immigrant parent and one indigenous parent, what culture is the child?

It's very important that such children feel a part of their society, and not part of some subset of that society. Otherwise they will always identify as "different", and will always have more problems.

The Vikings successfully integrated into Irish society - but we don't see Viking children do we? I'm sure a lot of Viking traditions made their way into Irish traditions, but all Irish people think of them as "Irish" at this stage - i.e. separation of culture is unlikely to work for a successful immigration policy IMO.

A good contrast to the Vikings in Ireland story is the story of the Roma/gypsy people in Central Europe, who (for whatever reason) never really culturally integrated into the countries where they live.
They are still feeling the effects of this with there being negative connotations to being Roma in most European countries - whether they were not able to assimilate because the host people didn't let them inside their towns is irrelevant, the point is that even now people think of them as "them and us".

So, "invasions", empires, isolationism.

This is definitely something I'd have to study to make a more informed comment, but it seems to me that the extreme islamist model is really not an "empire" that we can argue will be as beneficial as say, the Roman empire. From my little uninformed perspective.

You know, if we argue that these things happen, and this how the world goes. Cultural mix, assimilation, etc... via more or less barbaric means.

I'm all for this shift in perspective to better see what is happening, and factor in history into decision making, but the outcome that I can surmise is not really a fruitful, beneficial one with extreme islamism and Sharia law.

Ulysses Gaze

aled wrote: »

you group disaffected folks into disaffected areas you get what you get. I lived in Kista, Stockholm for a lot of years and you simply would not go near Husby or Akalla. These areas were simply high rise areas packed with immigrants.
So what do you expect, a social inclusion policy that socially excludes. And strangely when you look at the other countries targeted by such attacks, all of them have the exact same policy. Just shove migrants into migrant areas and maybe they will go away.
In Ireland we tend to simply shove the poor people among the poor people. Migration to date has been tolerated. Its poverty we have primarily focused on in this country. So migrants have been free to move within our society. And this is a very good thing. I think our European friends would be rather jealous when they look at our integration policy (bar direct provision which is a disgrace and an embarrassment)

So why take them in in the first place if you're going to do that? So you can "feel good".

I have said this before, but the Swedes are hypocrites.

They should not be taking in refugees just to throw them into ****hole suburbs with no amenities, no aspirations and no hope.

If the Swedish left or centre, or any left or centrist wing party in Europe, are really truly serious about integration, and not hypocrites, then these refugee families need to be living side by side with middle class families to build aspiration. The kids need to be going to middle class schools and mixing with middle class kids. Not travelling in from direct provision housing to go to middle class schools and then returning. No, they should be then returning to live in the same areas that their middle class class mates live in.

To me it's vital that this is done because otherwise you're going to get more situations like we have seen throughout Europe. No go areas, violence in these suburbs, high unemployment etc. You're dangling a carrot and then taking it away.

Taking refugee families in may make people "feel good" but that is only half the job done.

inforfun

And here is your cultural enrichment brought to you by your political elite.
AKA Abou Yousef al-Belgiki

Jailed for 20 years in 2001 for shooting at police, released in 2016, no doubt for good behaviour.

At least this Polish minister talks sense

How exactly does someone who had an "important criminal record", had served supposedly 20 years in prison for an attack similar to what he carried out last night, and was known to authorities, get their hands on such a weapon?