Pte. Kevin Joyce - MIA - Lebanon - April 1981

DanMurphy

This year of 2017, Pte. Kevin Joyce will be 36 years missing in action in South Lebanon.
After all this time his name appears to have been forgotten, at least officially. He is, of course remembered by his family and comrades, but as far as 'Official Ireland' is concerned...Kevin is forgotten.

It's a lesson all Irish soldiers have learned, since Ireland 'had form' in this regard - having abandoned a soldier's body in the Congo in the Sixties; 'Don't go MIA' for Official Mother Ireland won't bother her ass looking for your bones, because, when all is said and done, Official Ireland cares sweet- ****all about you, or your bones.

No other Nation that provided troops to the Congo or Lebanon Missions walked away from their MIAs, as Ireland has done.
(Twice)
No other civilized Nation would condone such penny-pinching and lack of action; indeed, the Americans are still actively seeking the bones of their MIAs in SE Asia, and the BA likewise, throughout Europe and beyond.

Having served in Lebanon and other UN Missions many times, I can still hear the smug Irish Politicians words of false praise ringing in my ears, given before we departed.
But...not one of them lifted a finger to help get the bodies of our MIAs brought home.

Anyway, that's my rant over for another year.

This little poem is dedicated to Kevin, and I've been given the author's consent to post it here.

(Ibrahaim Halawa supporters take note)


(For Kevin - my old comrade)

In Lebanon's dusty soil I lie
Since '81, that's when I died
For World Peace I left my shore
But Ireland thinks of me no more

You speak of men of '98
And honour where they lie
But forgotten me, your native son
And the cause for which I died

No more I'll see old Galway Bay
Or my home there in the west
No more I'll speak my native tongue
For I lie in Lebanon's dust.

I can't direct you to my side
But you'll find me, if you really tried
Just try and go that extra mile
Or shame on all, in Erin's Isle

It's lonely here, in this strange place
In this foreign land I came to save
But find me soon and bring me home
And honour me with an Irish grave.

(Copyright James Dee 2009)

Stars and Stripes

DanMurphy wrote: »

This year of 2017, Pte. Kevin Joyce will be 36 years missing in action in South Lebanon.
After all this time his name appears to have been forgotten, at least officially. He is, of course remembered by his family and comrades, but as far as 'Official Ireland' is concerned...Kevin is forgotten.

It's a lesson all Irish soldiers have learned, since Ireland 'had form' in this regard - having abandoned a soldier's body in the Congo in the Sixties; 'Don't go MIA' for Official Mother Ireland won't bother her ass looking for your bones, because, when all is said and done, Official Ireland cares sweet- ****all about you, or your bones.

No other Nation that provided troops to the Congo or Lebanon Missions walked away from their MIAs, as Ireland has done.
(Twice)
No other civilized Nation would condone such penny-pinching and lack of action; indeed, the Americans are still actively seeking the bones of their MIAs in SE Asia, and the BA likewise, throughout Europe and beyond.

Having served in Lebanon and other UN Missions many times, I can still hear the smug Irish Politicians words of false praise ringing in my ears, given before we departed.
But...not one of them lifted a finger to help get the bodies of our MIAs brought home.

Anyway, that's my rant over for another year.

This little poem is dedicated to Kevin, and I've been given the author's consent to post it here.

(Ibrahaim Halawa supporters take note)


(For Kevin - my old comrade)

In Lebanon's dusty soil I lie
Since '81, that's when I died
For World Peace I left my shore
But Ireland thinks of me no more

You speak of men of '98
And honour where they lie
But forgotten me, your native son
And the cause for which I died

No more I'll see old Galway Bay
Or my home there in the west
No more I'll speak my native tongue
For I lie in Lebanon's dust.

I can't direct you to my side
But you'll find me, if you really tried
Just try and go that extra mile
Or shame on all, in Erin's Isle

It's lonely here, in this strange place
In this foreign land I came to save
But find me soon and bring me home
And honour me with an Irish grave.

(Copyright James Dee 2009)

Now I despise the Irish govt as anyone else here, but this seems just a cranky rant "No other Nation that provided troops to the Congo or Lebanon Missions walked away from their MIAs, as Ireland has done." Have you got any actual proof of this ?

And I don't see why the supporters for the release of Ibrahaim Halawa should come in for a swipe, they like any decent Irish citizen would be fully supportive of any efforts to find Private Caomhán Seoighe. It's like having a go at those who campaigned for the Birmingham 6 or uncovering the Tuam babies scandal etc. (Of course this thread will probably be taken over by trolls and flamebatiers with zero interest or respect for Private Seoighe unfortunately). Maybe you could enlighten us as to what you have done ?

A monument was erected 2 years ago to Private Caomhán Seoighe at Inis Oírr on the Aran Islands with an RTE report on the ceremony.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0529/704754-missing-soldier-aran-islands/

There's actually a previous thread on this on b.ie -
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057197821

DanMurphy

What have I done personally?
Some years ago I was fortunate enough to meet with a Lebanese Government Minister, and his wife through work. They said if I was ever in the Middle East again I should visit them in their home in Beirut.
The following year I travelled to Beirut, with others, at our own expense, and were welcome guests at their home. We took the opportunity to enquire about our MIA and asked how much pressure the Irish Government were putting on with the Lebanese re the issue.
He replied that he never witnessed any requests from the Irish Gov in this regard, but if he did, he would of course take some action, though the Lebanese had thousands of their people also missing due to their Civil War.

As for a 'cranky rant' that's your opinion.
The fact still remains that two Irish Peacekeepers lie dead and forgotten in foreign fields. If it takes a cranky rant to remind people, then so be it.
If you want to research Peacekeepers MIA, be my guest, or better still, email the UN in New York.

Barry Badrinath

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Now I despise the Irish govt as anyone else here, but this seems just a cranky rant "No other Nation that provided troops to the Congo or Lebanon Missions walked away from their MIAs, as Ireland has done." Have you got any actual proof of this ?

And I don't see why the supporters for the release of Ibrahaim Halawa should come in for a swipe, they like any decent Irish citizen would be fully supportive of any efforts to find Private Caomhán Seoighe. It's like having a go at those who campaigned for the Birmingham 6 or uncovering the Tuam babies scandal etc. (Of course this thread will probably be taken over by trolls and flamebatiers with zero interest or respect for Private Seoighe unfortunately). Maybe you could enlighten us as to what you have done ?

A monument was erected 2 years ago to Private Caomhán Seoighe at Inis Oírr on the Aran Islands with an RTE report on the ceremony.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0529/704754-missing-soldier-aran-islands/

There's actually a previous thread on this on b.ie -
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057197821

Proof? Fcuk this website anyway!

You have to have proof in order to get a point across? Stupid shyte.

Firstly, I don't despise the Government

Secondly, what has Dan done? Dan volunteered to wear the same uniform and same blue beret that the two soldiers who are MIA have. I can understand and accept any "cranky rant" from a man who has served his country and others in the service of peace.

Thirdly, in 2016 when I was last in Lebanon I also asked a senior official of the Lebanese government about our MIA. I got pretty much the same answer as Dan.

The point is, we are a nation with a long history with the United Nations. Our Governments over the last 57 years have sent us wherever they wanted us to go. We mostly went illequipt but excelled in performance despite this.

The successive Irish Governments have volunteered us to travel and fight if needed but they wont fight for us.

Its not too much to ask of our Government to put some pressure on to get answers about our two MIA comerades.

So let me ask, what have YOU done? Other than criticise an ex-soldier who stepped up to the plate and went where he was asked to go.

Negative_G

Has anyone made contact with any elected representatives regarding this? Has anyone asked their local TD to question the Minister for Defence on the matter?

DanMurphy

btw I don't despise the Irish Government either. What I despise are ' military cheerleader' politicians that never wore the uniform of the soldier. The many Defense Ministers who promised (lied) that they were in serious negotiations with the Lebanese Government regarding this issue. Yet, a senior Lebanese Minister never heard a word about it!
I served in the Leb three or four times (in the Infantry) after 1981 and had many contacts there from my earlier trips as a member of the UNIFIL MP Coy. I never let a chance go by to enquire about Kevin Joyce, from village Muchtars to businessmen, members of the Amal militia and as the trips went by, from Hezbollagh members. It was always a question at the 'back end' of our meetings with them. As time went by and the situation changed on the ground, lots of these people were killed or disappeared off the landscape, but I still maintain that Kevin Joyce's remains can be found, by either accident, bribery (yes, even bribery,...whatever it takes) or a substantial reward offered.

To answer the question posed by Stars & Stripes, I think I've done quite a bit.
There are folks better placed than I, who could do a lot more.

Stars and Stripes

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Proof? Fcuk this website anyway!

You have to have proof in order to get a point across? Stupid shyte.

Firstly, I don't despise the Government

Secondly, what has Dan done? Dan volunteered to wear the same uniform and same blue beret that the two soldiers who are MIA have. I can understand and accept any "cranky rant" from a man who has served his country and others in the service of peace.

Thirdly, in 2016 when I was last in Lebanon I also asked a senior official of the Lebanese government about our MIA. I got pretty much the same answer as Dan.

The point is, we are a nation with a long history with the United Nations. Our Governments over the last 57 years have sent us wherever they wanted us to go. We mostly went illequipt but excelled in performance despite this.

The successive Irish Governments have volunteered us to travel and fight if needed but they wont fight for us.

Its not too much to ask of our Government to put some pressure on to get answers about our two MIA comerades.

So let me ask, what have YOU done? Other than criticise an ex-soldier who stepped up to the plate and went where he was asked to go.

It’s self bloody evident that people are going to have proof to answer a few queries about any campaign with genuine questions coming like “Have the Irish govt done little to find the body, really ?? Have you any ministerial letters or the army or newspaper article etc to show little or nothing has been done ? ”. And a “ I met a Lebanese Government Minister, He replied that he never witnessed any requests from the Irish Gov in this regard” would be a quick loss of interest. The people for example who started campaigned for the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 back in the day had evidence from human rights organisations, their solicitors etc (when campaigners only got harassment for their efforts from the Special Branch and bullsh!tting liars in the newspapers claiming we were only a Sinn Fein front). But he came on here ranting that the Irish govt have done nothing, all I asked has he any proof they have done nothing - newspaper report, a ministerial letter etc but he produced zero. If someone has a campaign to say that someone is a victim of a wrong, you need some concrete information to make your case, it's just common sense.

And for his own reasons he took a swipe Ibrahaim Halawa’s campaigners, Ibrahaim's campaign was through much effort started by his family and supported by young students who went to school with him. Through tons and tons of lobbying they have managed to get a few politicians, newspaper and radio interviews etc. As stated they like any decent Irish citizen they would be fully supportive of any efforts to find Private Caomhán Seoighe, I don't see why a swipe has to be taken at them of all people.

As Negative_G states " Has anyone made contact with any elected representatives regarding this? Has anyone asked their local TD to question the Minister for Defence on the matter? ". Exactly. If anyone is thinking of starting a campaign I’d suggest first contacting Private Caomhán Seoighe’s family to check it’s ok with them and get their views and support. If that’s ok then maybe start a Facebook campaign ( I run one for the Right2Water anti water charges campaign, there easy enough to set up). Possibly the Irish United Nations Veterans Association or PDFORRA would be of assistance, I certainly hope so. If such a campaign were to start holding public meetings or petitions etc than I for one would be glad to give my support.

Barry Badrinath

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

It’s self bloody evident that people are going to have proof to answer a few queries about any campaign with genuine questions coming like “Have the Irish govt done little to find the body, really ?? Have you any ministerial letters or the army or newspaper article etc to show little or nothing has been done ? ”. And a “ I met a Lebanese Government Minister, He replied that he never witnessed any requests from the Irish Gov in this regard” would be a quick loss of interest. The people for example who started campaigned for the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 back in the day had evidence from human rights organisations, their solicitors etc (when campaigners only got harassment for their efforts from the Special Branch and bullsh!tting liars in the newspapers claiming we were only a Sinn Fein front). But he came on here ranting that the Irish govt have done nothing, all I asked has he any proof they have done nothing - newspaper report, a ministerial letter etc but he produced zero. If someone has a campaign to say that someone is a victim of a wrong, you need some concrete information to make your case, it's just common sense.

And for his own reasons he took a swipe Ibrahaim Halawa’s campaigners, Ibrahaim's campaign was through much effort started by his family and supported by young students who went to school with him. Through tons and tons of lobbying they have managed to get a few politicians, newspaper and radio interviews etc. As stated they like any decent Irish citizen they would be fully supportive of any efforts to find Private Caomhán Seoighe, I don't see why a swipe has to be taken at them of all people.

As Negative_G states " Has anyone made contact with any elected representatives regarding this? Has anyone asked their local TD to question the Minister for Defence on the matter? ". Exactly. If anyone is thinking of starting a campaign I’d suggest first contacting Private Caomhán Seoighe’s family to check it’s ok with them and get their views and support. If that’s ok then maybe start a Facebook campaign ( I run one for the Right2Water anti water charges campaign, there easy enough to set up). Possibly the Irish United Nations Veterans Association or PDFORRA would be of assistance, I certainly hope so. If such a campaign were to start holding public meetings or petitions etc than I for one would be glad to give my support.

So you wont accept anything less than confirmation from the Government that they have dont little or nothing :pac:. And unless you see that, then Dan is wrong and his opininion is void?

You must eat constantly to produce so much shyte.

Myself and Dan have spoken to Lebanese officials, at least we have tried something. Im sorry I didnt record it or get him to notarise a transcript of the conversation. Silly me, I should have known personal experience means nothing on t'internet.

As a serving soldier, I believe I am barred from direct contact with Irish Government officials. Im fairly sure im right on that. However, I would reasonably say people have broached the subject before. They were both before my time.

I believe that this is still an issue would be the fact that the Government has either done nothing or very little.

To be honest, it shouldnt take a civilian campaign or Facebook page for the Government to take action for 2 missing troops who the Government were directly responsible for.

If you want to talk about Halawa, talk to Dan, not me.

So, did you just come into this thread to stir shyte? What was it that set you off? Do you have proof of everything you state?

Negative_G

Perhaps if the "vets" and their associations put as much effort into bringing home their missing colleagues as they seem to do in creating medals to award themselves, this issue might have gained traction. And by effort I mean lobbying their elected representatives and asking the hard questions.

You are correct, the Government have an obligation to ensure they bring all their soldiers home. If that doesn't happen and their is no other political or diplomatic intervention, it will slide off the table and be replaced by something more "important". That's how politics works in this country, rightly or wrongly.

With all due respect to both of you, having an informal chat with some Lebanese officials isn't going to amount to anything. It has to he driven from the Irish Government and unless there's someone asking the hard questions, that won't happen.

I'll ask again, has there been any Dail questions raised on the matter recently or indeed at all? Has anyone corresponded with any TD's? Has anyone raised the issue in the media? I'll be honest, I can't honestly recall anything on the matter.

If Facebook is anything to go by, there is no shortage of retired soldiers who seem to have plenty of time on their hands to tell war stories. Perhaps there efforts should be focused on bringing home these men.

pablomakaveli

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

So, did you just come into this thread to stir shyte?

I think thats his intent with every thread he posts on in this forum.

Barry Badrinath

Negative_G wrote: »

Perhaps if the "vets" and their associations put as much effort into bringing home their missing colleagues as they seem to do in creating medals to award themselves, this issue might have gained traction. And by effort I mean lobbying their elected representatives and asking the hard questions.

You are correct, the Government have an obligation to ensure they bring all their soldiers home. If that doesn't happen and their is no other political or diplomatic intervention, it will slide off the table and be replaced by something more "important". That's how politics works in this country, rightly or wrongly.

With all due respect to both of you, having an informal chat with some Lebanese officials isn't going to amount to anything. It has to he driven from the Irish Government and unless there's someone asking the hard questions, that won't happen.

I'll ask again, has there been any Dail questions raised on the matter recently or indeed at all? Has anyone corresponded with any TD's? Has anyone raised the issue in the media? I'll be honest, I can't honestly recall anything on the matter.

If Facebook is anything to go by, there is no shortage of retired soldiers who seem to have plenty of time on their hands to tell war stories. Perhaps there efforts should be focused on bringing home these men.

I agree with your point on the 'vets' associations.

I agree that more pressure should be put on the Government by anyone with an interest in it. I fact, it should be the military General Staff that should be putting the pressure on.

Our points about talking to Lebanese officials was in response to that other guy. I agree its not much but he asked what we had done, so we answered with what we had done. Its not much but it is something. I also agree that not much would come from it but I suppose it lets them know some Irish are still thinking about it. My chat wasnt informal btw but it wasnt the main agenda.

I cant answer your question about prior queries to Government. I have no knowledge of it but that should tell us something.

I must talk to a few exers and see whats going on in their circles regarding this.

Barry Badrinath

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I think thats his intent with every thread he posts on in this forum.

Looks like you are right.

Another one for the ignore list :pac:. Man, thats getting full.

Stars and Stripes

Negative_G wrote: »

Perhaps if the "vets" and their associations put as much effort into bringing home their missing colleagues as they seem to do in creating medals to award themselves, this issue might have gained traction. And by effort I mean lobbying their elected representatives and asking the hard questions.

You are correct, the Government have an obligation to ensure they bring all their soldiers home. If that doesn't happen and their is no other political or diplomatic intervention, it will slide off the table and be replaced by something more "important". That's how politics works in this country, rightly or wrongly.

With all due respect to both of you, having an informal chat with some Lebanese officials isn't going to amount to anything. It has to he driven from the Irish Government and unless there's someone asking the hard questions, that won't happen.

I'll ask again, has there been any Dail questions raised on the matter recently or indeed at all? Has anyone corresponded with any TD's? Has anyone raised the issue in the media? I'll be honest, I can't honestly recall anything on the matter.

If Facebook is anything to go by, there is no shortage of retired soldiers who seem to have plenty of time on their hands to tell war stories. Perhaps there efforts should be focused on bringing home these men.

Exactly Negative_G, as I've told thicko it’s only self bloody evident that people are going to have proof to answer a few queries about any campaign, having an informal chat with some Lebanese officials isn't going to amount to anything. And indeed it's only manners and respect and a bit of cop on but if anyone is thinking of starting a campaign I’d suggest first contacting Private Caomhán Seoighe’s family to check it’s ok with them and get their views and support. But we're dealing with an absolute thicko here, who like a yahoo in a pub who wants to get his way will shout and rant and just make a gobshyte out of himself.

Stars and Stripes

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Looks like you are right.

Another one for the ignore list :pac:. Man, thats getting full.

That's just great thicko, the only positive contribution you made on the discussion yet. Thanks thicko

Manic Moran

[Mod]The hell...?

Locking, pending my being able to pay some attention to this.[/mod]

Manic Moran

[Mod]Stars and Stripes gets a week off for blatant personal abuse.[/mod]