RECI Cert For Replacing An Electric Shower

Sleeper12

I am a plumber & run a dedicated shower repair & installation company. Up till now I've always had a RECI with me on full installations or if the RCBO needs changing on a shower repair. Everything else I do myself. Repairs & replacements & pull cord replacements. Has anyone heard of new RECI regulations about issuing a cert for all electric shower replacements?

It's still considered minor works by CER

I'm at this 30 years but I'm still not quite 50 yet. So I need another 15 to 20 years out of this.

Electricman

Any work done on a distribution board and in special locations ie all work in areas listed in part 7 of the wiring rules must be carried out and certified by a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor)
Bathrooms come under part 7 and therefore it is clear that all works on an electric shower must be completed only by a REC.
Why would you not simply join RECI and become a REC. If the reason you won't join is because you are not an electrician then maybe you should not be carrying out electrical works.

See this link Section 2

http://www.safeelectric.ie/restrictedWorks.pdf

2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote:

Any work done on a distribution board and in special locations ie all work in areas listed in part 7 of the wiring rules must be carried out and certified by a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor) Bathrooms come under part 7 and therefore it is clear that all works on an electric shower must be completed only by a REC. Why would you not simply join RECI and become a REC. If the reason you won't join is because you are not an electrician then maybe you should not be carrying out electrical works.

I'm in contact with CER a few times a year since 2012 and they have assured me that replacing a shower like for like swap and repairs on the shower itself come under minor works. If it didn't then triton and mira engineers wouldn't be able to repair the showers under warranty as these are mostly plumbers.
I was wondering if there was any truth to new RECI rules saying a cert needs to be issued. This would leave me trying to explain to clients that CER are happy with me doing this work but RECI members must issue a cert I can't issue.

Electricman

What "new RECI rules" are you referring to. As far as I know there are no new RECI rules. RECI don't make the rules, they simply apply the regulations as outlined in the CER criteria document. The definition of restricted works in special locations quoted in my last post has not changed since 2013.
If you are in touch with the CER please ask them to clarify the special location in part 7 restrictions.

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote:

What "new RECI rules" are you referring to. As far as I know there are no new RECI rules. RECI don't make the rules, they simply apply the regulations as outlined in the CER criteria document. The definition of restricted works in special locations quoted in my last post has not changed since 2013. If you are in touch with the CER please ask them to clarify the special location in part 7 restrictions.

The regulations on part 7 are for all electrical installations. Replacing an electric shower isn't an installation, it's a replacement and falls under the minor work section.
I was asking was there new RECI regulations. You seem to be confirming that there aren't.

Electricman

You are correct, replacing a shower is not an installation, the problem is the rules apply to and I quote
"The modification, installation or replacement "
So it's a replacement, in a special location, and the work should only be done by A Registered Eletricial Contractor who should provide a completion certificate.
You are also correct in that there are no new RECI rules.

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote: »

You are correct, replacing a shower is not an installation, the problem is the rules apply to and I quote
"The modification, installation or replacement "
So it's a replacement, in a special location, and the work should only be done by A Registered Eletricial Contractor who should provide a completion certificate.
You are also correct in that there are no new RECI rules.[/quote

This is what it actually says:

the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

If I read this correctly it suggests to me "an electrical INSTALLATION in part 7. The only modification and replacement mentioned relates to the fuse box and not part 7. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I've sent an email about it to CER / safety Ireland. They wrote it so they must know what it means. I'll report back when I hear from them

Sleeper12

Restricted Electrical Works; this involves restricting the carrying out and certification of all
Controlled Electrical Works in a domestic setting to RECs with no legal exemption for the
Owner or Occupier.
As set out in Statutory Instruments, S.I. No. 264 of 2013, Restricted Electrical Works are:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation
which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not
change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the
transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer
tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of
the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as
the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation,
including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a
Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations
covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.
Minor electrical work remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works (see
document CER/13/147 for definition of minor electrical works).

http://www.reci.ie/Portals/0/130729%20REC%20Factsheet%20(2)-Copy.pdf

Ok basically RECI say I can't go near the fusebox. Haven't a problem with that. They also say a cert must be issued for the installation of a new shower. Not a problem as we use RECI sparks for full installations. No cert needed for replacement shower, pull cord etc & no cert needed for shower repairs. This was in the new laws brought in 2013 & they haven't changed them since.

Calahonda52

IMO It becomes clearer if we dump the "or" from its function as a coordinating conjunction linking two main clauses and simplify the writing to the following:

The modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device.

The modification, installation or replacement of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations.

Sleeper12

Calahonda52 wrote:

IMO It becomes clearer if we dump the "or" from its function as a coordinating conjunction linking two main clauses and simplify the writing to the following:

Totally agree. A simple full stop would have ruled out any confusion.

Electricman

Sleeper12 wrote: »

http://www.reci.ie/Portals/0/130729%20REC%20Factsheet%20(2)-Copy.pdf

Ok basically RECI say I can't go near the fusebox. Haven't a problem with that. They also say a cert must be issued for the installation of a new shower. Not a problem as we use RECI sparks for full installations. No cert needed for replacement shower, pull cord etc & no cert needed for shower repairs. This was in the new laws brought in 2013 & they haven't changed them since.

Maybe I am missing something but where exactly in the quote (which is just a copy and paste from the RECI website) do RECI say you don't need a certificate for a replacment shower??? Or for shower repairs ???

My understanding is that the "replacement" of electrical equipment in "Special Locations listed in Part 7" ie Bathrooms is "restricted works"

Restricted works in a domestic location can only be legally carried out be a Registered Electrical Contractor and must be certified.

You said you were going to seek clarification from the CER, Have you done that.?

I have seen nothing to change my opinion that any person who is replacing electric showers or pull cord switches and is not a Registered Electrical Contractor is breaking the law and is in danger of being prosecuted by the CER.

Fortywatt

So is an electric shower an electrical installation for the purposes of S.I. No. 264 of 2013 (which is what really matters)?

Electricman

It's even simpler than that "the modification, installation or replacement of electrical equipment in Special locations" is Rectricted Works.

A bathroom is a Special Location listed in Part 7
Therefore it is unlawful for anyone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor to "Modify, install, or Replace any electrical equipment in a bathroom.

It is clear to me that to replace a shower is work that should be done be a Registered Electrical Contractor who should provide a certificate.

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote: »

It's even simpler than that "the modification, installation or replacement of electrical equipment in Special locations" is Rectricted Works.

A bathroom is a Special Location listed in Part 7
Therefore it is unlawful for anyone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor to "Modify, install, or Replace any electrical equipment in a bathroom.

It is clear to me that to replace a shower is work that should be done be a Registered Electrical Contractor who should provide a certificate.

This is the section you sent me to:

Restricted Electrical Works; this involves restricting the carrying out and certification of all
Controlled Electrical Works in a domestic setting to RECs with no legal exemption for the
Owner or Occupier.
As set out in Statutory Instruments, S.I. No. 264 of 2013, Restricted Electrical Works are:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation
which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not
change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the
transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer
tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of
the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as
the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation,
including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a
Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations
covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.
Minor electrical work remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works (see
document CER/13/147 for definition of minor electrical works).

It says

the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer
tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical

They are only talking about the fusebox here.

They then go on to say:

Installation in any of
the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations

Here they are talking about Part 7 areas but they have made the distinction Here that its Installation only

This is what you pointed me to. Are there other guidelines I should be looking at?

Is there a link to the national wiring rules?

red sean

Electricman wrote: »

It's even simpler than that "the modification, installation or replacement of electrical equipment in Special locations" is Rectricted Works.

A bathroom is a Special Location listed in Part 7
Therefore it is unlawful for anyone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor to "Modify, install, or Replace any electrical equipment in a bathroom.

It is clear to me that to replace a shower is work that should be done be a Registered Electrical Contractor who should provide a certificate.

So does this mean you need a REC to replace a light bulb in a bathroom?
It is a piece of electrical equipment.

seamus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Here they are talking about Part 7 areas but they have made the distinction Here that its Installation only

You're misreading the rules.

"Electrical Installation" refers the unit, not the installation of a unit.

“Electrical Installation” means an assembly of electrical equipment with wiring or cable, to fulfil one or more specific purposes and having associated
characteristics;

That's from the actual law; http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/si/264/made/en/pdf

This means that the sentence,
"the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board
including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device
or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in
Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case
may be;"

Should be read as others have said above. It should have been clearer when written, as:

the modification, installation or replacement:
- of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or
- of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be

This is the interpretation a court would take because there is a specific definition given for the phrase "Electrical Installation".

Sleeper12

seamus wrote:

This is the interpretation a court would take because there is a specific definition given for the phrase "Electrical Installation".

They go to the trouble of saying installation, replacement or modification when they talk about the fuseboad. Then in the same sentence they only use the term installation for part 7. I'm autistic & I take things literally. Reading the CER document they clearly draw the distinction between institution and replacement of the fuseboad and in the same sentence I'm supposed to know that installation now means replacement too?

seamus

Look at the law. "Electrical Installation" in this context is a phrase referring to an electrical appliance/unit, not the act of installation.

If it helps, it's the first definition in this list;

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/installation

"Installation" can refer to the act of installing, or to something which is already installed. In the context of the electrical rules it's referring to something already installed.

Sleeper12

seamus wrote:

"Installation" can refer to the act of installing, or to something which is already installed. In the context of the electrical rules it's referring to something already installed.

Yes but in the CER document they use installation, replacement & alterations as 3 separate things. You can't then try to use installation as covering the three in the same sentence.
Look I shouldn't be arguing. I asked for people's opinions or facts so unfair for me to disagree if I don't like what I hear. Just saying that the CER document doesn't make sense

Electricman

Sleeper12 you are separating the words "electrical and installation" in the sentence. By dropping the word "electrical" you are reading the sentence in the wrong context.

You said you were looking for clarification from the CER, What did they say??

It does look like any work, even changing a bulb, in a bathroom is restricted works. I personally think this is totally stupid legislation, but this clearly is the law. I suspect that if someone gets hurt in a shower modified, replaced, or installed, by someone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor, the person who fitted the replacment shower will end up before the court

This is my interpretation of the requirement

The modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer
tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or
The modification, installation or replacment of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as
the case may be;

Therefore the Replacment of a shower in a bathroom is not minor works

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote:

You said you were looking for clarification from the CER, What did they say??

I'm a member of a plumbing forum on Facebook. I have been told by CER in 2013 to carry on replacing & repairing but not to install. I'm still waiting for a reply from RECI Another member was told recently no repair, no replacement & no installation. Yet another from the group had a sit down meeting with a RECI inspector, this was an official meeting.

Im just back from a RECI/Safe electric meeting where this was outlined. It is the understanding of these bodies that only Registered electrical contractors should undertake any electrical work involved in the fitting of a shower, be it new or replacement. They also in the same breath outline that it is completely illegal (since 2007) for a REC to go beyond the cover of a gas boiler once the gas supply has been made live.

RECI said that they consider a replacement shower an installation therefore comes under restricted works.
They also said that you can repair showers, you just cannot replace.

The above quotes are from the guys that met the RECI inspector. Again with "Repairs" allowed I'm not sure if “Electrical Installation†is the correct term

No one can clarify were a repair starts. If the connection block is damaged & I trim back the cable can I reconnect it? Some repairs require taking the shower off the wall and putting it back. Then you have Triton and Mira replacing showers under warranty. Complete replacement under warranty, they don't have Recs working for them.
Sorry if I come across like I'm arguing. Genuinely grateful for everyone's input even if the answers aren't what I hoped to hear. This is stressfull to be told you can no longer work at your profession after 30 years.

Is there some sort of course I could do that would just cover electric shower that will satisfy RECI. I'm 50 now. This has been my profession for 30 years at the same time I can't serve another 4 year apprenticeship. I know alarm installers are allowed to work on a fuseboard & they aren't REC. Not that I want to go near a fuseboard

Electricman

Sleeper12 wrote: »

. I know alarm installers are allowed to work on a fuseboard & they aren't REC. Not that I want to go near a fuseboard

This statement is totally incorrect. Check out this link,

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Pages/NS15000037

I fully understand your situation, you need to get clarification in writing from the CER not from RECI

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote:

I fully understand your situation, you need to get clarification in writing from the CER not from RECI

I might try get a meeting with someone from CER.
Another one of my autistic foibles is admitting when I'm wrong doesn't sit tools well with me.

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice. It might not have come across properly but I genuinely do appreciate it.

2011

I had email correspondence with CER and posted the emails in the forum charter.
Have a read of the unedited email exchange here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91119951&postcount=290

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

I had email correspondence with CER and posted the emails in the forum charter. Have a read of the unedited email exchange here:

I will do when I'm finished work. Thanks

Sleeper12

Sir Arthur Daley I was only thinking the other day that I hadn't seen him online in awhile. Turns out its 2.5 years.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I had email correspondence with CER and posted the emails in the forum charter.
Have a read of the unedited email exchange here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91119951&postcount=290

Yes, interestingly, out as far as the spur needs to be tested, certified etc by a REC. After the spur, 230v suddenly becomes much safer.

Phil.x

All these new rules and regs about who can and cannot do what is a joke.

All its there for is to try and stop the black market, and confuse most sparks as to what they can do legit.

Are these rules just for the domestic?

Sleeper12

Phil.x wrote:

All its there for is to try and stop the black market, and confuse most sparks as to what they can do legit.

I disagree. A lot of plumbers replacing showers don’t care how the original installation was done. They just say well my end is done correctly and if it's wired wrong from 20 years ago then it's nothing to do with me.
My only issue is that plumbers should be able to upskill on this the same way they can in the UK. Train & pass a test just for electric showers. To say to someone that showers have been part of their job since train that you can't do it anymore isn't right. They should be offered the chance to upskill. Over 95%of electric showers are replaced & repaired by plumbers. I don't believe they will stop this & it makes more sense to train them imo

EHP

Phil.x wrote: »

Are these rules just for the domestic?

Under the current rules it is only domestic is affected for NON RECS all areas commercial, domestic and industrial are under these rules for RECS. What this means is a NON REC can work on a fuse board in a factory and not cert anything but legally cannot work on his own or any domestic fuse board where a REC can work on all fuse boards but has to cert all his Controlled or Restricted works in all industry's.

No electrician should be confused about what they can and cant do, but to try and give a general guide and this does not cover everything so if in doubt contact a REC, Safe Electric or ask here and I will try and answer.

If completing any works on a fuse board in domestic a REC is needed, this work must be certified

All electrical works in any of the Zones in Bathrooms in Domestic a REC is needed, this work must be certified

Replace broken socket add socket to existing circuit same with lights and wiring heating from the spur this is minor works and non RECS can complete, if completed by a REC the owner can request a cert.

I believe the CER will introduce these rules across all industries in time but for now this is the way it is.

The only real way of getting rid of black-market work is to hold the homeowner liable, when this happens I think it will open the door for plumbing works to get some sort of certification.

Sleeper12

EHP wrote: »

Under the current rules it is only domestic is affected for NON RECS all areas commercial, domestic and industrial are under these rules for RECS. What this means is a NON REC can work on a fuse board in a factory and not cert anything but legally cannot work on his own or any domestic fuse board where a REC can work on all fuse boards but has to cert all his Controlled or Restricted works in all industry's.

No electrician should be confused about what they can and cant do, but to try and give a general guide and this does not cover everything so if in doubt contact a REC, Safe Electric or ask here and I will try and answer.

If completing any works on a fuse board in domestic a REC is needed, this work must be certified

All electrical works in any of the Zones in Bathrooms in Domestic a REC is needed, this work must be certified

Replace broken socket add socket to existing circuit same with lights and wiring heating from the spur this is minor works and non RECS can complete, if completed by a REC the owner can request a cert.

I believe the CER will introduce these rules across all industries in time but for now this is the way it is.

The only real way of getting rid of black-market work is to hold the homeowner liable, when this happens I think it will open the door for plumbing works to get some sort of certification.

Totally agree here. Tradesmen usually don't buy electric showers in woodies & B&Q as they are cheaper at the trade counter. Yet these DIY stores sell tens of thousands every year. Apart from some dodgy tradesmen there is a lot of restricted work being dome by homeowners. They need to be held accountable. Personally I believe electric showers shouldn't be marketed as a DIY product or sold in DIY stores. It sends the wrong signal imo